Sméagol: Hero of the Third Age

[Boromir88]

When Smeagol killed Deagol, it wasn't because the Ring amplified his personality; it was because he was possessed with an overpowering desire for it, and Deagol stood in the way.~Rikae

I think that's the main point where we disagree (which isn't a bad thing ).

The thing is, I don't think the Ring creates any sort of different feelings within anyone. It uses what the person is already like, and what is already within the individual.

As an example with Bilbo, he is a good-natured, well-intentioned hobbit, with really no signs of wanting to commit evil. You are right, in that the circumstances one acquires the Ring are very important about the effect of the Ring. And Bilbo getting the Ring out of his pity for Gollum is a tribute to Bilbo's character as a person. He wasn't a violent/weak-minded person. He was a good-natured, caring hobbit.

Also, the example I gave with Boromir, where the Ring plays with Boromir's desires of Victory for his country and his own glory with it. The Ring doesn't create these feelings within Boromir, they are already there, and the Ring uses that to it's advantage. As Faramir notes:

I can well believe that Boromir, the proud the fearless, often rash, ever anxious for the victory of Minas Tirith (and his own glory therein), might desire such a thing and be allured by it.~Window of the West

The Ring uses the desire for his own glory that is already within Boromir to get Boromir tempted and eventually attempt to take the Ring from Frodo.

Let's take the Ring tempting Sam for another example:

He felt that he had from now on only two choices: to forbear the Ring , though it would torment him; or to claim it, and challenge that Power that sat in its dark hold beyond the valley of shadows. Already the Ring tempted him, and he saw Samwise the Strong, Hero of the Age, striding with a flaming sword across the darkened land, and armies flocking to his call as he marched to the overthrow of Barad-dur. And then all the clouds rolled away, and the white sun shone, and at his command the vale of Gorgoroth became a garden of flowers and trees and brought forth fruit. He had only to put on teh Ring and claim it for his own, and all this could be.~The Tower of Cirith Ungol

That's what I mean with the Ring playing with the very nature of the individual. Is it any coincidence that Sam is a gardener, and the Ring says puts me on and the Gorgoroth will become a great and splendid garden at your command? The Ring uses the very desires of the individual, and plays with their nature.

So, Gollum's murdering for the Ring only shows his weak-mind in that he couldn't resist it upon seeing it. But, my point was that the way he uses the Ring is a great insight to what Smeagol's character was like before he came across the Ring.

To an extent you are right, eventually the Ring will make people do things that they would not have initially done...as you show with Bilbo snapping at Gandalf upon asking for it. But, good-natured and strong individuals don't feel this effect from the very beginning. As Gandalf mentions:

"But I have so little of any of these things! You are wise and powerful. Will you not take the Ring?"
"No!" said Gandalf, springing to his feet. "With that power I should have power too great and terrible. And over me the Ring would gain a power still greater and more deadly." His eyes flashed and his face was lit as by a fire within. "Do not tempt me! For I do not wish to become like the Dark Lord himself. Yet the way of the Ring to my heart is by pity, pity for weakness and the desire of strength to do good...."~Shadow of the Past

Eventually Gandalf realizes the the Ring would make him more like Sauron, over time. However, the way of the Ring, what the Ring would do to accomplish that, is to use Gandalf's pity and desire to do good.

The Ring uses already what is in the individual to get control of them. It brings out their greatest desires and makes them believe, claim me and it so shall be.

Gollum's murdering of Deagol speaks to his weak mind. But what Gollum does shortly after he gets the Ring shows the nature of Gollum even before he came across the Ring. We know before Smeagol came across the ring he was a 'mean soul' and that further is shown with the way Smeagol uses the Ring for malicious intent and thieving upon getting it. The Ring didn't create these desires, or actions in Smeagol, they already were there. The Ring just brought it out of Smeagol and made Gollum (the thieving, the just overall 'evil' already dormant within him) the dominant factor.

[Rikae]

Actually, it's similar, but it seems to me the ring's action still is to create a desire for it. The "clothing" of that desire with the person's own personality is an attempt to rationalize an irrational desire: Gandalf would rationalize his desire for the Ring with pity, Boromir by telling himself it would benefit Gondor, Sam by telling himself he will create gardens, but it seems to me it was the desire that preceded these "reasons". Gandalf, Galadriel, Frodo and Sam all know the ring is evil, and know that anything they do with it will turn to evil; and yet, there is still a temptation they must resist; it seems the temptation is seperate from the reason they might find to give in to it.

"A mean soul", I wonder...mean as in cruel, or as in poor? At any rate, once he has murdered Deagol and taken the ring, he's under its influence more powerfully than either Bilbo or Frodo ever were. I also wonder how many people (especially social outcasts), if they had a ring of invisibility, wouldn't use it to spy (and quite a few even to steal). There is also the question of the influence of guilt on his psyche. We know he was tormented by guilt, since Tolkien tells us. I really don't see a description of an evil being; a pathetically weak one who knew he was weak and hated his weakness, knew, eventually, the ring influenced him and hated its influence even though he loved it. That's why I find it entirely believable that he would have, subconsciously, desired his own and its destruction.

[littlemanpoet]

A "mean soul" would be defined as a soul that is poor and cruel. A bankrupt soul, if you like, is one that is lacking in that which is good in a soul; thus cruel and heartless.

Gollum is as good an example as any character in LotR, and better than most, that Middle Earth contains folk that are not naturally good.

[Rikae]

A thought that just occurred to me which argues in favor of Gollum's fall being, at least partly, suicide is: the parallel with Maedhros suggests it.

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Rikae

"A mean soul", I wonder...mean as in cruel, or as in poor? At any rate, once he has murdered Deagol and taken the ring, he's under its influence more powerfully than either Bilbo or Frodo ever were. I also wonder how many people (especially social outcasts), if they had a ring of invisibility, wouldn't use it to spy (and quite a few even to steal). There is also the question of the influence of guilt on his psyche. We know he was tormented by guilt, since Tolkien tells us. I really don't see a description of an evil being; a pathetically weak one who knew he was weak and hated his weakness, knew, eventually, the ring influenced him and hated its influence even though he loved it.

Going off of what Rikae said...
I don't necessarily think that Smeagol was heartless, but was (to put it in terms my dad would understand) a follower, and what I mean by that is he would follow any idea that seemed good to him and go with it. That is why the Ring had such a big hold on Smeagol is because it had the skills to mess with your mind and was easily talked into many things. I don't thing that the reason that Smeagol killed Deagol was because he was a cruel person, but just because he felt a great need to have it (like a drug addict) and his weak soul that was probably searching for something more and couldn't resist. I'm not saying that he wasn't a social outcast, because he very well might have been, and if he was then that would've been a contributer to how he acted at the river when he first acquired the Ring and also later on when he was spying and stealing things from his grandmother. And I think (I'm pretty sure it was mentioned somewhere) that his grandmother kicked
him out of their village because of his strange behavior due to his being left out of his family functions and probably having little to no friends in life. And that is why, when he was kicked out of his village Smeagol fled to the mountains into solitary confinement, because he hated all beings, even himself and the Ring. After that he was in the caves wallowing when Bilbo came along. When Bilbo came along Smeagol's old anger that had been brewing for a long time had woken up again because Bilbo is like what Smeagol had once been, a hobbit. Once Bilbo had taken the Ring Smeagol was furious, so he obviously went out to find it (as written in the books) and when he did, he actually tried to get over his addiction, but his weak spirit didn't have what it took to get rid of the need for it and when he finally got to the mountain with Frodo and Sam, Smeagol couldn't help himself due to his originally weak and even weaker still since the Ring took over spirit. So he took the Ring and fell over the edge, which was (I think) fate as chosen by the Illuvatar himself.

But Smeagol being the hero of the age, I think he was. Frodo did fail due to the fact that he claimed the Ring for his own at the end of the quest. So all in all, the residents of Middle-Earth shouldn't have celebrated Frodo at all, but Sam and Gollum, because in the end it was really Gollum who competed the quest and destroyed the Ring.

(If you do not want to read the whole post, just read the bottom paragraph)

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

But Smeagol being the hero of the age, I think he was. Frodo did fail due to the fact that he claimed the Ring for his own at the end of the quest. So all in all, the residents of Middle-Earth shouldn't have celebrated Frodo at all, but Sam and Gollum, because in the end it was really Gollum who competed the quest and destroyed the Ring. (TheGreatElvenWarrior)

Hmm, but Frodo was the Ringbearer. He had lots of help on his journey, yes, but the Ring was mostly around his neck for most of the mission. We should give him credit for that.

Would there be a reason to contemplate Sméagol's sacrifice/suicide/accident had the Ring not been in the Cracks of Doom at that time, or at all?

[TheGreatElvenWarrior]

Originally Posted by Nilpaurion Felagund

Hmm, but Frodo was the Ringbearer. He had lots of help on his journey, yes, but the Ring was mostly around his neck for most of the mission. We should give him credit for that.

Would there be a reason to contemplate Sméagol's sacrifice/suicide/accident had the Ring not been in the Cracks of Doom at that time, or at all?

Hmm... That's a good question. If they had not been at the cracks of doom and Gollum had gotten the Ring, then the whole of Middle-Earth would have surely have gotten taken over by Sauron because Gollum would've ran off with the Ring and left Frodo and Sam where they were to die, if he had not already killed them, and Sauron's forces would've found Gollum and taken the Ring and there would be no hope for Middle-Earth, unless the Valar came back and helped them.
Then Smeagol would've died or gotten killed anyway, without the "hero" concept. So all in all, Smeagol looses in the long run.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

This is an interesting thread related to this topic:

Was Gollum's slip the only way? by Eomer of the Rohirrim