Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath

Hi,

How you are very expert, well, I have a question:

the Second Prophecy of Mandos and Dagor Dagorath are really discarded?

In 'Silmarillion' (Akallabeth) Ar-Pharazon will be imprisoned in the Caves until the Last Battle. And Fëanor will return and he will break the Silmarils and rekindle the light of the Two Trees.

So... what do we know of the Dagor Dagorath and Second Prophecy of Mandos?


(Sorry, my english is not very good... I'm brazilian girl)

Thank you very very much!

[William Cloud Hicklin]

This is a very vexed question. Christopher Tolkien's opinion in Morgoth's Ring was that his father discarded the Second Prophecy by about 1958. Others are not so sure about this. Personally I believe that the abandonment of the Second Prophecy (or its mutation into a prophecy of the War of Wrath) are part and parcel of the unachieved impulse to fit the mythos into 'our' scientific world, in which (for the Catholic Tolkien) the Last Battle will be Armageddon, not Dagor Dagorath. Since it was not possible to work this intended reshaping into the published Silmarillion, IMO the Second Prophecy should have been allowed to stand. But that's just me.

[cesar.ewok]

Hi, Edhel!

My guess is that the Prophecy shouldn't have been allowed to stand. Or at least few important elements of it: I don't really think that Tolkien would've kept the idea of making Túrin imortal -- and in the Prophecy he kills Morgoth with Gurthang, which was, however, destroyed and lost in the latest versions of the Tale of the CoH. Moreover, we know from the LotR that Sauron did not recover the finger that was cut by Isildur. If Morgoth had his legs (and arms too?) cut, he'd not be able to fight, once he was in that same condition of Sauron (and also of "his greater agents", as told in Ósanwë-kenta). That's what I think.

[Findegil]

I think that the Dagor Dagorath was never discarded. The second prophecy might have been but I would not sign such a statement. At least I think both should be discussed single handed and not together.

The Dagor Dagorath could still be valid concept in Tolkiens mind even when he skipped the second prophecy. So I will start my discussion with the Dagor Dagorath:
This phrase is as fare as I know not from the second prophecy but from a text in the chapter on the Isatir in Unfinished Tales. It is their given in short poem speaking about Gandalf. Since it is clear that the poem is much later then The Lord of the Rings it becomes clear that the Dagor Dagorath was at least at this time still in existence as a concept for the end of Arda.

For the problems that we have with certain elements in the second Prophecy I think we should look at a quiet different source about the end of Arda for potential answers: In the Ainulindale we are told that the end of the music, which certainly corresponds to the end of Arda (Marred - at least), came by a direct intervention of Eru. Eru is ever free to choose his agents as he had chosen Manwe as the main instrument of the second theme and Varda to carry the unsullied light of the flame of Anar into the world or Gandalf for rescuing what was left of the glory of Numenor against Sauron. As we see in Gandalfs example Eru has not any problem to resurrect someone from death, least of all a Man whose feä was with him after his death anyway. And would anybody doubt Erus ability to recreate the black-sword for his agent? So I think nothing really speaks against the second prophecy.

Respectfuly
Findegil

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Moreover, in its later rescension Turin is said to come not from Mandos- which would be problematical to say the least- but from 'the doom of Men'- which I take to mean beyond Ea, the Timeless Halls, and suggests to me at least the dissolution of boundaries at the Great End. And of course both Morgoth and Ancalagon would have to be in some way 'reincarnated' as well.

[cesar.ewok]

I wonder if you guys see a problem if I paste this thread in another community. May I?

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As long as you reference the original (perhaps by linking to this thread or at least providing the "coordinates") I see no problem.

[Galin]

If the myth as it was found in HME V was to survive in any way, I think Christopher Tolkien concluded, in any case, that it was not to be thought of as coming from Mandos.

'Here ends The Valaquenta. If it has passed from the high and the beautiful to sadness and ruin, that was of old the fate of Arda Marred; and if any change shall come and the Marring be amended, Manwë and Varda may know; but they have not revealed it, and it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos.' JRRT

The Second Prophecy of Mandos (V. 333) had now therefore definitively disappeared. This passage was used to form a conclusion to the published Silmarillion (p. 255).' CJRT

It is to be noted that JRR Tolkien never did a substantial rewrite of the end of the Quenta Silmarillion of the 1930s, specifically the passage in question. Later Tolkien did make cursory corrections to the (now) 'old version', however. Christopher warns that these revisions need not imply 'any sort of final approval of the content' (see his reasons in HME XI, The Later Quenta Silmarillion). In any case, these revisions include:

'Turin Turambar... coming from the halls of Mandos' (changed to) 'Turin Turambar... returning from the Doom of Men at the ending of the world'. (as noted by Mr. Hicklin already). In the margin JRRT wrote 'and Beren Camlost' without direction for its insertion. 'and she will break them [The Silmarils] and with their fire rekindle the Two Trees' emended to 'and he [Feanor] will break them and with their fire will rekindle the Two Trees.'

Aprroximately against the last two sentences of the paragraph (from 'In that light the Gods will grow young again...') Tolkien put a large X in the margin of the manuscript. There is also the introduction of a further subheading The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

Hmmm, did Tolkien abandon the Second Prophecy or not? With respect to Turin dealing Morgoth his death blow we find (in HME XII) a prophecy concerning Turin from Andreth the Wise-woman rather -- and here Turin will return at the 'Last Battle' at the end of the Elder Days and before he leaves the Circles of the World forever will deal Ancalagon his death-stroke (noting that it had earlier been Earendil, as was taken up into the constructed Silmarillion of course).

This idea dates from 1968 or later: Turin is no longer named 'among the gods' (1930), no longer given a place among the 'sons of the Valar' (1937) and is seemingly coming back to slay Ancalagon rather than Morgoth (according to prophecy anyway), and during the War of Wrath. Author's Note 7 to Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth (in Morgoth's Ring) is interesting:

'It is noteworthy that the Elves had no myths or legends dealing with the end of the world. The myth that appears at the end of the Silmarillion is of Númenórean origin*; it is clearly made by Men, though Men acquainted with Elvish tradition.' JRRT

*note 19 '... in so far as this reference is to any actual written text, this is the conclusion of QS (V. 333,... ) the Prophecy of Mandos.' CJRT

The Athrabeth itself probably dates to the late 1950s so this note is quite important in my opinion. Again, to note the Valaquenta here: 'if any change will come and the Marring be amended ... it is not declared in the dooms of Mandos' -- and the new prophecy of the 1960s regarding Turin indeed does not come from Mandos in any event, but from a mortal woman.

Only a part of a complicated subject in any case!

[cesar.ewok]

Ok, I'm a little confused now.

So Dagor Dagorath became the War of the Wrath, in which Túrin returns incarnated, and with his black sword slays Ancalagon? And the Armageddon is what is told in the account of QS? Then Túrin is supposed to come back in the War of the Wrath, die again, return again at the end of the days, and slay Morgoth?? And the Armageddon prophecy was not declared by Mandos??

I'm baffled.

[Findegil]

No, the Dagor Dagorath remind ever what you called Armageddon and the Old-Norse mythologie Ragnarök.

What changed was only the time of Túrins resurection. At least Andreth said he would not come into the War of Warth to slay Ancalgon.

The Second Prophecy of Mandos was never changed by Tolkien, but that must not mean that it was still valid. But it is also never said that Andreth sayings were ever true. We are dealing with (invented) prophecies and not with any (how much ever blured) account of (invented) history.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Galin]

It is confusing

If one were to collect all references to some sort of 'Last Battle' or World End tale or belief it would make for quite the post I would think. Anyway, what I'm trying to suggest above (at least) is that if the 'content' of the Second Prophecy (meaning only the 'latest' version on paper that we have) were cast as Mannish in origin (as seemingly according to note 7) then it is perhaps no longer The Second Prophecy of Mandos in that it is no longer another prophecy from Mandos specifically. Or, if 'put into the mouth of one of the Powers', put there by Men (raising the question of its true origin as a saying).

That's just one possible way of looking at it (I think), especially if one emphasizes note 7, which in my opinion could 'fit' well enough with the conclusion of the Valaquenta (which CJRT used to conclude the Quenta Silmarillion proper instead of the Second Prophecy). The late note on Turin coming back at the end of the Elder Days doesn't necessarily 'fit' with the Second Prophecy -- but one thing I note about it (despite how one interprets its meaning with respect to the question as a whole) is that it is not a foretelling of Mandos (one of the Powers) in any case.

If we narrow the consideration (arbitrary yes) we have:

A) the conclusion to the Valaquenta: Mandos does not declare something about the marring of Arda being amended.

B) Note 7: the Prophecy is Mannish not from Mandos (or arguably distancing him even if 'Men say' the Vala himself delivered the prophecy)

C) The prophecy of Turin is given by a mortal women (not Mandos).

So this could be said to be a 'common element' despite what C may or may not say about the issue as a whole. The late prophecy (C), if indeed Christopher is correct, refers to the War of Wrath rather...

... but what it means just by existing as a text (considering Turin's 'earlier' role in the Second Prophecy) is another question. And there are considerations of other references to World End battles or World End traditions (including when each was written) that get tossed into the larger mix of course. I'm not going into that complicated business, but am rather trying to note a possible 'general trend' away from Mandos if any 'prophecy' is going to be given.

That is, at least with respect to some texts anyway, so the force of this is diminished -- as I can't really say, for example, that the cursory corrections to the end of the QS proper are necessarily 'removed from Mandos' especially considering the further subheading The Second Prophecy of Mandos.

Oh well

[zxcvbn]

There's one more thing against the canonicity of Dagor Dagorath.

It is to be noted that the published Silmarillion contradicts the Second Prophecy in places. Whereas the Second Prophecy explicitly states that the Elves and Valar shall be renewed after Dagor Dagorath and that the fate of Men is unknown, The Silmarillion states that Men will participate in singing the Second Music, and that it is the fate of the Elves that is unknown, and nothing is said of the fate of the Valar

[Findegil]

This does speak against the Second Prophecy, but not against the Dagor Dagorath.

Respectfuly
Findegil

hi there everyone - I've just arrived here after my umpteenth blast and revisit to my Tolkien Tomes. I got back into it through the ever-vexing Ost In Edhil in Eregion - and I was rabidly seeking a *description* of this famous city, and, alas, thus far it has eluded me. It was The Second Prophesy of Mandos that I've always really really loved.

That's how I found you - greetings and Merry Christmas to you.

Some random thoughts before I go burrowing for quotes and excerpts. I've never had a problem with the inconsistencies in the 'fine print' as it were about the Second Prophesy. For example, recalling Turin to stand nigh Tulkas with Feanor - I would rely on the Spirit of Tolkienism, which, I seem to remember from somewhere in his memoirs or other, him talking about the importance of those mythological elements that cannot be easily squared, or that are discordant with the 'known' mythology. He was citing the mystery of Bombadil in that prose, pointing out the importance of it not being declared how on earth Tom fits into the mythology....he is an anomaly. And a deliberate one.

So - 'how does Turin return' if he went beyond the circles of the world - Eru is the final arbiter - and contravenor of all "Law" and "Lore" in Middle Earth. The Valar, by entering Arda bound themselves to its Laws and Lore. The free-will/fate paradox aside a moment - the "Intervention" theories can accommodate discrepancies.

I'd hazard a juxtaposition here - in Ainulindale - there are three moments when Illuvatar (not the Valar) rises up to silence Melkor and re-invigorate The Music with transformation and Healing. I've always wondered if the Third Intervention was at the end of the world.

I read somewhere that the battle was so great that the earth broken (again) and the Simarils released. Delivered unto Yavanna, who *broke* them, spilling their light on Ezellohar, rekindling the trees.

So (to respond to a post upstream) - why didn't they do that when Earendil came into the West - well, I'd hazard that Mandos (the Keeper for the First and Second Prophesies) forbade it, for the timing of it. One could imagine many ways of reconciling that difficulty.

And it has always seemed right - and in the Spirit of Tolkienism - that those most grievously harmed by Morgoth's Darkness, or those most heroic against its struggle, they get 'exemptions', a-la Frodo and Bildo. And Turin is the mega-persecuted Mortal. One wonders why Morgoth was so fixated by him, and could imagine his deep seated fear of Turin's role in his final end....

I rant

nice to meet u all

warm regards
stav