Werewolf, why to play or not to play?

[Nogrod]

I’ve been a bit amazed about all the controversy around WW that occured some times ago and also a bit astonished about the relatively low interest on the game of late after that (this fall).

So I think it’s about time to have a separate discussion thread for matters of WW in general, not limited to particular games discussion threads or the general TiG-thread which mainly serves it’s purpose with handling the oncoming games and their moderators.

I do understand why there has been some controversies. Playing this kind of game easily brings forwards all kinds of feelings and if one gets too involved it’s easy to see the things said in the game thread as personal comments. I know it as I’ve had that very same backbone reaction myself many times. One just should get over that reaction and to see it’s a game – and fun, as it should be.

So we should remember that it’s a game to be enjoyed, to have fun with. Not an occasion where our value as human beings is evaluated. As an optimistic person I’m not at all confident that this is the reason why the games have attracted less popularity of late. I’m just not willing to believe it. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

So what is it then?

Do people feel that the games have gotten too competitive or too serious? I myself don’t see the point of that argument but would be willing to see the argument to consider it. But for my part I’d like to argue the opposite. A year ago many people were much more serious and competitive than in the last games I’ve been in. Or at least that’s how I perceive it.

Is there a feeling that the “crossbar has been raised too high” as we say in Finland? That to be able to take part one would need to be a wizard? There has been an increased tendency in the games that it is generally discussed whether one should be able to get through a game with posting nothing / posting just oneliners but that I think is a different thing. I can see why many people (including me) call for participants to actually play the game and not just hang around. But why wasn't there this problem a year or two ago?

Or has the time just gotten past the game? Was it a fashion that passed away? I see many of the people who were used to be the active and brilliant WW-players who have not been seen too much around in other threads of late either (spm, Morm, Spawn, Fea, Anguirel, phantom, Roa, Diamond, Durelin, Valier, Farael, Glirdan, Nilp... all those legends of the game! - sorry if I forgot someone...). So is it even more gravely that the ‘Downs have lost a bunch of active people in the first place? (That discussion might be a place for another thread I think)

So what do you think?

Why should one play werewolf and why not?
Why there are less players now than there were?
What could be done to it?

I mean I love the game and I love to play it with you people.

[Nogrod]

Just to add to the things said above...

Werewolf is an amazingly varying game that has all the features of a classic: social interaction (that just gets better the more you play with the same people*), emotional involvement, suspense, challenges for the intelligence, playing the detective, bluffing and double-bluffing, coping with unexpected situations, playing for a cause...

Just plain wonderful and so much fun!

And most of the time all this is set into the background of Tolkien's world which just heightens the experience as it's a world we can share here.


* Which also means that it's very nice to see new people around as they are potential fellows in the games to come. It's not a long time ago we got people like Rikae, Macalaure or Legate in to the games and now it seems they're household names, the few basic elements of the game.

[Rikae]

Well, I don't think the problem could be worded as simply as "taking things too seriously", but I also wouldn't say that it's a problem of "not serious enough" per se.
It seems to me that, over the past year, our little band of players has lost its sense of fun. The gameplay has become too formulaic; on day one, the stock topics are trotted out and discussed in the accepted ways, day 2, the same old analysis, same arguments, and really, the same roles are reenacted again and again.
By 'roles' here, I mean something other than roleplay or hidden roles; I mean the in-game persona and strategy adopted by each player. Instead of real thought and individual analysis, players respond to each other in standardized ways, almost like filling in a form. There is always the wacky 'lightning rod' killed on day one; the myriad "quiet ones", the 'list' analyses, etc.
Even the explanations for suspicion seem chosen from a multiple-choice list. "Well, we need to get rid of the quiet ones.", "Too confusing", "Trying to appear helpful while saying nothing", "flip-flopping". However often these stereotyped methods fail to catch a wolf, they're still trotted out every time; and those who deviate too far from the average-of-all-posts are automatically lynched instead of being looked at carefully.
All this has the effect of creating overcautious, homogeneous playing styles and ever more boring games. While I'm not suggesting everyone play as oddly as I did in Lommy's game, I think that the lack of thought which causes us to vote for easy targets and make easy posts (or no posts at all), is sapping all the enjoyment and interest out of the game.

[Lhunardawen]

Truth be told, I find it quite amazing that more than thirty games, not counting the Junior ones, have already been played for the last - I think three years or so. Yes, I agree it's a great game (understatement of the year), but I guess I never expected that people would keep it up for so long. Nor have I counted on the possibility of fresh corpses getting hooked to the game when the more decayed players start feeling, I assume, like they've probably already had too much of it.

I can't help thinking that there seems to be just so many ways of playing the game, whatever your role may be (although I'm probably just not strategic enough to find ways to further tap each role's potential). This could be the reason we come up with other versions of the game, to spice it up a bit. But everything still boils down to more or less the same strategies and logical arguments - and I'm sure we can all agree that's tiring work.

Which brings me to the more pressing issue: the younger players, who comprise a huge chunk of the Werewolf population, aren't getting any younger and any less busier. Some who used to have more time as high school students now find themselves without a chance to visit the Downs as they enter the university (Ang and tgwbs spring to mind). The others have climbed up the ladder of tertiary education, and things get crazier up there. Mind you, this is just my perspective, being one of those younger ones. I don't know how the minds of adults work so I can't speak for them.

As for the rest...they've probably just moved on.

[mormegil]

Speaking as one who has been around since game one and at one point, it may still stand, held the record for most played games I would suggest a few reasons for the decline.

1. I think there was a fallout after the few controversies that came about. I don't think this is the only cause but we lost a chunk about that time.

2. We lost other downers on and off for one reason or another. I am one such where life has come and given me new situations to deal with and new sources of passing time which takes me away from the downs, though I'm getting a bit more active if only lurking a bit.

3. Another reason for me is...well I've played so many games I need a break. I've been thinking about getting back into it but...this leads to the next topic

4. Personally, I get a little bothered by all the crazy variations we experience. I realize that many people do a great job and I enjoy some of that variations that exist but I still crave the simple and basic games with small groups. Only seldom can I afford the time required on a game with 20 or so players. When the posting is so out of control that I cannot catch up I get annoyed and would rather do other things than read for 2 hours or more a day. Again, I think some of the variations have been way over the top for me.

These are some of the reasons I think..take it for what it is worth.

[Boromir88]

First let me applaud you Nogrod for starting this thread. When there's a problem, I like the whole 'cut the crap...how do we fix it?' attitude.

For me, time has certainly become a problem. Monday thru Thursday is work for 10 hours, and Friday thru Sunday it always seems like I'm doing something, and when I am not doing 'work,' I just want to relax and unwind. So, when a new game starts the first thing I have to ask is...ok am I going to have the time?

But, I will say it's not all about 'time' either, I know I've told several people I really have lost a lot of interest in the game. It used to be that I loved the social interaction, I loved the gaming...and in many ways I still do (I love to play Mob - which is exactly the same only instead of catching WW's you have to find mobsters).

At least, for my part, I agree with Rikae as I don't think WW becoming 'too serious,' or 'not serious enough' is the best way to describe why I've lost a lot of interest. It's kind of hard to explain as I've always liked that 'serious edge' as well as knowing 'it's just a fun game to play.' The seriousness, the competition, intensity, passionate arguments all added to the reasons I loved doing it. But in the end, it was a fun game, something to relax and enjoy. Now it seems, as Rikae said, too 'formulaic' or as I see it...too much like 'work.' The social interaction, and the game itself used to be something that could unwind me from all the work...but it has simply become just more 'work.'

I haven't even been keeping up with the games recently and it's due to the reasons I've said above. So, I really don't know what's been going on recently (just that it's been hard to get people to play). But I will say there definitely was an issue with some of the 'post game talks.' (Which prompted SpM to create this thread...definitely something that I agreed needed to be done at that time).

I sure hope that still isn't a problem, but if it is, this is all I'll say. I know there are certain 'downers who will disagree with the statement that there are some 'smart football [American football as a note] players' out there. But, one player, was asked about how his team has been 'lucky' in winning some of their games. He said, in response, that everything happens for a reason. These are all professional athletes that know how to play the game. Whether the defensive line creates pressure on the quaterback, forcing a bad throw, or they 'get inside the opposing team's head' there's always something that causes X to happen.

I think of WW the same way. Most of us have played this game a lot, as for new members on the downs, I know several of them have played WW or a similar game elsewhere. In a way we are all 'professionals,' we all know how to play this game. No one caused the 'team' (either innocent or werewolf) to lose, it's just whatever team won played that much better. It may sound arrogant of me, but when I lose, I know it's not something I did wrong, I simply got outplayed...or maybe you could say I got 'played like a fiddle.' :P

"You did that much better. You 'out did' me. Congradulations, you just wait until next game, let's see if I can get you back." Friendly competition, that always was a great spark to play. There was a time friendly competition turned into a 'blame game.' Like I said, I haven't checked in to recent games to know if that's still an issue. I just know it was at one time and was a reason as to why I've stopped.

[the phantom]

I've been too busy to play. Simple as that.

To properly do a game of Werewolf I need time to read things more than once, time to write multiple posts, and most importantly- time to think about everyone and everything.

Every day!

At this time I have only one day a week where that is remotely possible.

I see many of the people who were used to be the active and brilliant WW-players who have not been seen too much around in other threads of late either

You know, I think the fact that there is less participation from some old-school folks just increases the trend. Whether or not there exists relational history and familiarity with village members already signed up can be what tips the scales for someone joining a village.

I would certainly consider it, anyway. If I see a village stocked with people that I've played with before, that gets my interest up.

[Diamond18]

To properly do a game of Werewolf I need time to read things more than once, time to write multiple posts, and most importantly- time to think about everyone and everything.

Every day!

Ditto.

And I haven't had that sort of online time in over a year. I do often miss the fun social interaction of WW -- I still keep in touch with many friends met on the 'Downs Werewolfing but sometimes regret that I'm not meeting any of the newer Downers anymore or interacting with the old friends I'm not seeing elsewhere on the 'net. But ah well. Life got in the way, and now when I am able to be online I have more stuff to do than just play WW. WW would consume all my online time if I tried to play it properly. I absolutely hate having to play in a rush, or on stolen bits of time, skimming posts and making hasty desicions.

Also, the last time I played, I got to be a wolf for the first time, and won, so it just felt like the proper bang to retire on.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by the phantom

You know, I think the fact that there is less participation from some old-school folks just increases the trend. Whether or not there exists relational history and familiarity with village members already signed up can be what tips the scales for someone joining a village.

I would certainly consider it, anyway. If I see a village stocked with people that I've played with before, that gets my interest up.

Ditto, admittedly.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

All right, I'll be also one to pop in on account of the "freshmen". This means that I cannot judge the game in the more "global" view as most of you "old school" players do, but maybe I can say at least something.

First, my WWing career is something around seven or so games, including one modded by myself, and one thing I can say is that I definitely haven't witnessed any of these issues that someone has taken something personally. I don't know, maybe I just did not notice, but as far as I remember, for the last year, everything went smooth and no big issues where the players would have been offended did occur. (And one could ask, why should they? I daresay that I know most of you Downers at least to the point to know that you are not little children who can't stand being beaten in chess, or cannot discern in-game attacks from real ones.)

I'd guess, and what others post on this thread supports this opinion, that most of the lack of interest in WW depends on people being busy. However, a curious query: does not this also have something to do with the fact that WW is just "switching generations"? You know, I am not going to wonder if a WW veteran after his 3,456th game says "and I've had enough, I am not playing anymore" (there are, of course, people like Mr. Noggins, who seem to be playing infinitely. But that's a special case ). It's just natural, people come and go, and this can be applied on the Downs as a whole. But normally this "generation exchange" should be sort of a fluent, ongoing process, that seems natural. Older players start to visit the game less frequently, then they cease playing at all. And on the other hand, the new players start to appear more frequently, and in the end they become regular players. Technically speaking, no one should notice the change - or at least, no one should notice the change in numbers. But when you look for example on the list of Gil's last game, there is definitely something strange - not only the number of players is really small, but almost all of the players are just (relative) newbies.

Where I wanted to get with this. I was just wondering if - and that's just an idea, and not meant to be negative (and not aimed against anyone), but a subject to think of - if there is not sort of an "old-school-werewolf-stagnation". If the older players are not being - how to say that -"conservative", that's the word. I mean like one says to himself "and now we preserve our nice little village, where there is Noggins, Boro, Morm, Fea, Phantom, whoever..." and when suddenly one or two or three of them start to participate less, one says: "Well, but Morm, Fea etc. are not playing anymore, what do I have in common with these newbie folks, let's leave," even though the person would actually like to play, but there is the barrier, or unwillingness to accept the new situation, unwillingness to play with unknown players. Of course such a thought would be illogical: when this player came in the first place, he/she also did not know all these he/she now considers as "classic players", and they got acquainted exactly this way - by playing a few games together. But when such a player leaves, there is no way he could build up similar relationships with the new ones. And so, even if he returns some time later in the future, he realizes that he really does not have anything in common with the new players, because they developed their own playing style, and he leaves saying "they are playing something totally different, this says nothing to me". Also because of this I believe there should be a continuity, not a gap between the "old" and "new" WW players.

I am not saying that it's like that - what I'm saying here is just a query or a "probe", if anyone does not think the same. In second place, I believe mentioning such a thing could serve as "warning for further generations", which I think could be borne in mind for all WWers, even for the current and even for the upcoming players. What inspired me partially were phantom's words about his interest rising when there are some players he knows in the game. This is clear, of course everyone wants to play with his friends and remember good old times. But what if some people just take this to the extreme and want the "old times" to remain forever? That would be stagnation and it simply does not work like that - times are changing, people are changing and nothing can stop it. WW can be fun no matter with whom we are playing - because as it was said here, it's also about social interaction; so the fact that there are not the players I know should not play any role in our choice whether we want to join a game or not.

[The Might]

Well, as a real newb to the game, I doubt I can contribute much to the whole discussion, but I actually have begun to grow fond of the game. It's a quite interesting concept and I guess it is quite fun to play, though I must admit I find many posts quite boring.
I definitely must agree with Rikae, I mean, I've only played it for a day and I already realised she's right. Doing something rather innovative and I must say fun such as voting oneself or being too confusing is already taken as a sign of being a bad guy.
Anyways, guess maybe a bit less analysis and a bit more wackiness might give the whle thread a less tense appearence where all are analysing what is going on.
As for lder members, I doubt that it had something to do with WW for many of them, but rather with the whle Downs, RL problems can at times hinder you from posting.

[Volo]

If I understood Legate, I find his thoughts logical, but to some extent I don't agree. In my opinion the Junior games should be brought back! There should be different level games, whether they're for the old school and the younger generation or for the classical format players and the experimental players.

I have found it rather hard to play with players of a "different age group" as one automaticly assumes that your style is know. At least me, to a large extend. But at the same time I think that assuming so is annoying, when I myself don't know the style.
Example:
Imagine a new player seeing me vote myself and then ignoring that as just my style.
Or then imagine me not voting for myself like I usually do and then lynching me for acting strange.

I'm not saying that games should be strictly limited only to such and such players, just that the level of the games should be varied!

I doubt that I would have come to WW if not for the Junior games, but after that I did try joining a "real game".
Or then, like I already said, games could be divided into clear "classical games" with only the very basic roles and to "experimental games" with Mediums, Lynch-Seers and what nuts.
I myself prefer experimental games by far, but many players don't.

We could try putting the mod-list into an order where every other game will be of a different format.


Another thing that I lack is the after-game discussion. I like going through one game and talking about it, before joining the next one. Breaks from WW are essential.

[mormegil]

Originally Posted by Volo

In my opinion the Junior games should be brought back! There should be different level games, whether they're for the old school and the younger generation or for the classical format players and the experimental players.

I can't see this happening soon Volo. We are having trouble getting enough players for a game. The purpose of 'Junior' was to have a medium wherewith there could be two games running concurrently. Some saw Junior as a lesser game area whereas that was not the purpose of it. So Junior was closed until there was enough demand for having two games again.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well, personally, I don't have experience with the Junior games - when I started to play, they have already ended. I joined WW because I got a PM from Mac (a mod at that time), and I considered joining WW before, but was not sure if I would have enough skill for the game. At that time, I pitied that WWJ does not exist anymore - I would have most probably joined. So, from what I know about them I believe they could have served in a good way as a "changing station" for the new players, but I guess there was the problem with not enough people for both the junior and "senior" games.

Originally Posted by Volo

Or then, like I already said, games could be divided into clear "classical games" with only the very basic roles and to "experimental games" with Mediums, Lynch-Seers and what nuts.
I myself prefer experimental games by far, but many players don't.

We could try putting the mod-list into an order where every other game will be of a different format

I believe there was an attempt to do exactly this during this year's Spring, but I think it had somewhat failed. One also has to consider the wishes of the Mods, which may not always hold to the lined-up scheme (and one cannot just switch the Mods' positions on the ladder because sometimes someone does not have enough time to mod etc.).

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As a moderator with a primary interest in book discussions, I have a rather different slant on this question. I watched the start of WW games with curiosity, even joined one to try it out, and found it to be extremely time-consuming. With that in mind, I watched with concern as the Books and other forums became neglected because the WW games involved so many members who suddenly had less time for posting there. I know not all members who play WW were active elsewhere, some even joined just to play, but a lot of previously excellent posters were too busy for discussion threads. So, if WW games slow down, perhaps there will be more of those again?

That said, real life is definitely a concern for many of us, whether we concentrate on discussion, mirth, RPing, or WW. Like numerous others, I find myself busier elsewhere now than I was back when I first joined and spent hours reading and writing posts. Change is a major Tolkien theme, so why are we surprised when it involves us Tolkien fans?!

[Nogrod]

Good to see all you people taking part in the discussion!

And yes, time, time, time...

I do agree with people who say that you shouldn't play if you can't take the time for it. To me as well playing WW means using time, reading, thinking and writing. It's a game only when you actually play it and that takes time. I also understand Morm's point when there are twenty hyperactive players around it may get a bit over the top but that hasn't been the case in a long-long time. I kind of remember games where there were something like 5 pages of posting on just Day1!

Where to find time? Lhuna was questioning us adults... Well, we just make that time. It's easy when you just set your duties aside. One can fex. tell oneself that as I have such a stress with the work it does me good to relax with a game this evening and leaving the stressful duties. Those duties will certainly come to slap you to the face later but then you just have to deal with them.

There have been some other very interesting questions raised as well. I'll just make a few brief comments as I have a WW-game to play right now and need to go to sleep pretty soon (about 6 hours before I need to wake up in the morning...).

I hadn't thought of the situation as the old-school vs. the newbies as sharply as some of the posts do. But there may be a wisdom in there. All I wish to say at the moment is to encourage the "old-school" -people to come back and try it out once again. It's still fun and the newer players come known to you only by playing with them. (And btw. Legate, if you say I'm the one who just keeps playing please remember that I'm a newbie compared to Lommy...)

I'd both agree and disagree with Rikae. I'd disagree with the point of the games coming "formulaic" or to be a kind of multiple choice -list stuff. For example in the last game (Gil's game that is) I was the seer and Legate was the ranger. We won the game by being the last two persons alive after a few pretty nice manouvres. I don't think that has ever happened before and it was a most enjoyable game in many ways. There would be other examples as well.

But I'd agree with Rikae if we discuss the Day1's... Oh, the Day1 discussion again... I think many people have become a bit too careful by being too knowledgeable of the possible loopholes with which they can save their necks. So even if I'm happy no one kind of whines how they hate Day1's anymore they play it in a safe-mode that is not so fun anymore. It oftentimes looks like getting alive from Day1 is more important than having a good game. Rikae's destiny in the game we are playing right now is a case in point.

Also. If people are not whining about their hatred against Day1's anymore then also the games and the after-game discussions have turned into a more civilised enterprise. I think there haven't been any problems with people getting confused with themselves as persons and as players in a game in a long time. Also I think people are very much encouraging and positive towards each other. So those problems seem to have disappeared and that's a good thing indeed.

Finally I'd like to appreciate Estelyn's viewpoint. I can see that perfectly well!

Which nicely brings us back to from where I started; time, time, time...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

As a moderator with a primary interest in book discussions, I have a rather different slant on this question. I watched the start of WW games with curiosity, even joined one to try it out, and found it to be extremely time-consuming. With that in mind, I watched with concern as the Books and other forums became neglected because the WW games involved so many members who suddenly had less time for posting there. I know not all members who play WW were active elsewhere, some even joined just to play, but a lot of previously excellent posters were too busy for discussion threads. So, if WW games slow down, perhaps there will be more of those again?

That said, real life is definitely a concern for many of us, whether we concentrate on discussion, mirth, RPing, or WW. Like numerous others, I find myself busier elsewhere now than I was back when I first joined and spent hours reading and writing posts. Change is a major Tolkien theme, so why are we surprised when it involves us Tolkien fans?!

These are very good things to mention. Also the Book one. The games like WW are relaxation, though sometimes one gets hooked and... well, the Downs are not entirely about this, are they? One could visit a special WWing (or Mafia, for that matter) forum. Or with less fantasy play a... Counterstrike or whatever they play these days (for me it used to be Aliens versus Predator).

There is something like a natural flow of things. There is time with more WW, there is time with less WW. The Preacher could say: "There is time for WWing, and there is time to stop WWing". But it's always that someone gets used to something and it's hard to leave that habit, and it seems strange when there are suddenly less players or less games. But look - now suddenly, there appeared people like sally, Nerwen, or The Might and they seem to enjoy the game (of course let's wait what they say on the afterthread). So who knows what the future of WW is. Whether it will or will not be played in the future, and in what scale, is still, for the most part, not in our powers. It depends on the interest of every person who is at this forum and even on the interest of every person who is not already at this forum, even, but will be.

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

I don't have time.

That simple.

Part of why I ran away is because of the experimental games and the formulaic approach to everybody. I may have time to play now and then, but not if I have to learn wacky rules which may involve hermaphroditic penguin rangers with muse-powers, and not if I'm going to be lynched based on ratio of times I've won to times your mom's lost... There's a difference between critical thinking and penning up Venn diagrams, Microsoft Excel documents, and lists of your uncle's former wife's old business major friends from her Uni days.

So when I play again (the last half of December, give or take), I can tell you what I'll be looking for, and you can glean from that whatever you like:

A fairly small game.

An inviting player list of people I know I'll have fun with.

Simple roles, simple rules.

An AM start/end time.

A mod who can write interesting death scenes.

Yep...

Bed time. Classes bright and early which will last until dark and late...

[Azaelia of Willowbottom]

Well, I think there are many good reasons to play WereWolf. I quite enjoy the game, though I haven't played in probably about a year. There's the black humor, the suspense, intrigue, and suspicion, the refreshing complexity of working with (or against) some very intelligent people in a unique setting...

I wasn't driven away by a lack of variety. I wasn't scared off by the rumors of people taking it too seriously (in fact, I never encountered a situation like that, in any of the games I played!). I don't shy away from friendly competition, either.

In fact, the one reason I've stayed away is because I am, like Boro, Phantom, Fea, and probably many others, suddenly too busy for it. I have barely even been on the 'Downs at all lately (something I am trying to fix), to say nothing of having the free hours it would take to play. College is getting in the way. Being a theater major can mean twelve-hour days. I'm not complaining, since it's the life I've chosen for myself...but it does make participating here in any valuable capacity difficult.

There's also the fact that I live in an inconvenient time zone for most of the games I actually participated in (I'm in EST, and these things start and end either in the middle of class or late at night, it seems). This means I'd either miss voting entirely, or have to vote absurdly early, neither of which is constructive toward a good game experience for me or anyone else.

When piled onto my timezone, class, and theater schedule, another commitment of any kind just begins to sound like work, which isn't the attitude I'd want to approach this game with, either.

I am, however, hoping that there will be a game over winter break that I can take part in. In spite of all my real life issues (and the stress the game itself generates--just kidding!), WW is a lot of *fun* and I'd be sorry to see it go. I won't have work or class or theater. In short, I won't know what to do with myself, so I might as well play.

I think a return to the basics might do WW good, as Fea mentioned.

*A smaller number of players would mean a shorter game, and less reading, which makes it possible for people with more time constraints perhaps more able to play.

*A return to the basic rules with basic roles (werewolves, a ranger, a seer, and your common innocent villagers), might do well, too, in terms of making it accessible to all. That's not to say I don't *like* new ideas--I played the dueling wizards game, one of the lovers games, as well as the one with all the families in which I flirted with Phantom. Yes, that's how I categorize it. Heh. All were great fun...but a return to the basics really does have a certain charm.

*I'll deviate a bit and say a start/end time that I can deal with. It's not even a morning thing. I'm just not able to stay up until 3 am to cast my vote...regardless of the late hour as I post this.

*And who doesn't want a good death scene? When I get lynched by my misunderstanding fellow innocents, I want to go out in a true ironic style, snickering to myself at the sheer frustration and black humor of it all.

That said, I'm probably not going to be too picky about the game I join as winter break draws closer. I'm seriously going through WW withdrawal. My life could use a little suspense right now.

In fact, if the mod-list allows, I think a home for the holidays, back to the basics sort of game might be a good one to generate interest. Perhaps it could even help unite the old crowd with the new. Just a thought. I have no idea how it would work out.

People are complaining about the formulaic nature that is suddenly appearing. Perhaps it's just helpful to remind everyone that it's a game, and the nature of WW is that it is exactly as fun, exciting, twisty, and suspenseful as you make it. *shrug* Just a thought.

Sorry for the long ramble. It's clearly past my bedtime. :P

[Volo]

Would anybody like to mod the basic game? My turn is probably during the winter holidays: the end of December and beginning of January. I'd like to try a very experimental game. No, deffinitely nothing as complicated and frustrating as the first game I modded, that concept is out for now. The game will have many basic features mixed with new stuff. I have to admit that I'm probably over-ambitious with it. The ideal ammount of players would be 21 (!!!), but there won't be more than 14 players discussing at a time so in fact i'll be a rather small game.

Anyway, back to the question. Would anybody like to mod a basic game during the end of December. I can mod my game later if people clearly want something simple.

[Thinlómien]

Well, well, well...

as one of the (probably) most active ww-players and one who has been playing for quite a long time, and especially as someone who never has had a long pause from the game, I think I should say something on the topic. Yes, I feel like I have a sort of duty to post on this thread.

Many people (me included) often sigh after the "good old times", even though if you look from the real old timers' perspective, I'm just a newbie. I remember the early games and there certainly was something different from the current state. I think it was simply that the game was new back then. None of us had played in a dozen or more games, like now. Everything was new and new situations kept popping up all the time. Nowadays most of the even hilarious and extra challenging situations have been faced sometime in the past, and the senior players always bring those cases up - never thought of this, but possibly spoiling the newcomers' fun by saying "I know, it was like this in the game this-and-that, problem solved".

What I'm saying here is that we old players might indeed be the problem. I don't want to generalize, but very often we slip to this kind of thinking (I guess it's what you call formulaic thinking, isn't it?) and cease to think from fresh viewpoints just because we see no reason for it ("it was like that before, it is like that now, why would there be a change?"). And this is where we go so wrong. How often have I stopped, following some clearly trodden path of thought and realising it's not logical, it's just something we've always done before? And how often have I heard the wise words of a newcomer who still has a fresh perspective of the game who has not created the routine yet? Often, I tell you. Every time I'm a wolf (very seldom ) I can't help thinking how odd and random it is who is caught and who is not and why it is so. Also, I often think about the things that are clearly considered as signs of wolvery and how wrong they can be and how everything is, in the end, so random.

Also, one of my prejudices of us oldies has proven itself true on this thread. I hope no one is offended if I phrase this bluntly, but I think many of us are quite nit-picky. We want certain style of games, certain mods, certain people to play with. (I myself confess doing the two last ones, but often my hunger of ww exceeds my nit-picky sense of what would be a perfect game.) Somehow, it seems, many people are chasing a perfect game, some dream game or some nostalgic beautiful game of past. Those, sadly, can not come true. So we should be content with those we can have - intelligent, challenging, enjoyable and awesome games.

I do understand the craving to the old times, more than well. There are so many "old school players" I miss a lot and who I'd so much love to play again with. Besides, like always, time has made the early games look more fantastic than they probably were, the less memorable ones have been forgotten and only the greatest remain in active memory, thus making the whole picture of early ww games slightly biased. Although I'm quite sure that in the old times there was significantly less of the nuisance-like players who don't show up at all or post one one-liner post per day if even that... (and now I truly mean those one-liner players, I'm not exaggeratedly describing quieter players - even though I sometimes seem to demand vocal play from everybody, I have nothing against quiet players if they contribute - it's just their style.)

For my currently running game I tried to get some old faces playing. Because I missed them, I wanted to see them playing and - to be honest - to integrate them to the current wwing society and make them know the newer players. Sadly those I invited were all too busy and declined the request. It's the time...

I think we should have one (or hopefully more than just one) realtively small, classic game in which some true old-timers would play alongside with the newer guys. Some truly old school player could mod that so it would assure that many hardcore old timers were interested to play. But I definitely think it should be no closed game for just the old timers, but one with both old and new players and they could get to know each other. Besides, both the older and newer generation would have new challenges as they would be playing with many players they're never played with before and that would force them to think from a fresh angle. (And we go-betweens or always-hang-arounds could just be losers... ) AND you shouldn't play it during the Christmas holiday if I'm going to be away 'cos otherwise I'm going to be really sad!

I would be sad as well if the current state of inactivity in ww remained. I love ww. It's just a perfect game: no game is identic with another - it's always an individual challenge, it's a way to spend time with your friends or getting to know new nice people, an intriguing intellectual and rhetorical challenge, a way of both relaxing and doing something exciting and, with good mod and players, even a literature pleasure. Because of those things, I've never really stopped playing (except when I've had not time or no net access) and hopefully never will.

Yours truly,
Thinlómien

PS. Interesting... I think this discussion actually resembles the one we had here and in, for example, LiveJournal at the time of the davem-crisis. Back then, most people said they have a problematic relationship with the books discussions: they always follow the same lines, nobody's there anymore, everything has been discussed etc. Doesn't that sound familiar?

PPS. It is great that so many "old faces" have posted on this thread. Both the fact that they follow this forum frequently enough to see this thread and what they say about playing give me hope of seeing them around in the werewolf games again some time in the future...

[Feanor of the Peredhil]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I hope no one is offended if I phrase this bluntly, but I think many of us are quite nit-picky.

I am. Because in a very literal way, if a game isn't the 'perfect' game, I can't make it work. The thing to remember is that the variables which make up my idea of 'perfect' change based on how my life is changing.

PPS. It is great that so many "old faces" have posted on this thread. Both the fact that they follow this forum frequently enough to see this thread and what they say about playing give me hope of seeing them around in the werewolf games again some time in the future...

I make a point to follow threads. I'm just a lot more nit-picky about what discussions I want to dedicate myself to posting in. If I don't have the time to do a good job of it, I don't want to waste anybody else's by making them read what I have to say.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Change is a major Tolkien theme, so why are we surprised when it involves us Tolkien fans?!

Not only change, but the long defeat is a major Tolkien theme. Seems things were always better back in the day for Tolkien and his elves, so I suppose it will seem that way to Tolkien fans too. Is the answer just for all to sail west? Or are werewolves not wanted on the voyage?

[The Might]

Don't play it, it's addictive

[Thinlómien]

Do play it, it's addictive.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

Ach. When you've already played loads of games, always with the same people, it's no surprise that you don't want to do it so frequently.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Eomer of the Rohirrim

Ach. When you've already played loads of games, always with the same people, it's no surprise that you don't want to do it so frequently.

Now that's an interesting opinion. Quite different from most that were stated here. That's exactly what I had in mind - playing always with the same people leads to stagnation, it's nice to play with those you know, but even if the situations may start to seem the same, with different people there is at least some change.

[Lhunardawen]

I'm sure it will be very nice to play with the same old people again after long, though.

This is rather at a tangent from the topic, but I want to share it anyway. One problem with getting a bit too close to fellow Werewolf players is that the relationship could impair one's judgment in the game. In one game, for example, a werecreature was one vote away from getting lynched, and the loss or victory for either side lay in the hands of someone who was rather close to the werecreature. In the end the would-be swing voter chose not to vote, citing an unwillingness to vote for the werecreature as one of the reasons, although the non-voter was also not confident of the werecreature's villainous ways so their closeness was not the main reason. In the end the werecreature won.

Moral of the story? When in doubt, you can always use a trusty abacus.

[Groin Redbeard]

Hmmm... this thread may have convinced me to join in a game of WW. I've been hearing a lot about it and from what I here it sounds fun.

[McCaber]

True that, Groin. I haven't played yet, but I've read through several of the old games, and they're always entertaining. There's still spots open for WW42, if you want to join the action.