Ruin of Doriath - Attack on Menegroth

[Findegil]

A long time since I posted the second section of these, but better late then never. So here it goes:

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned below (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for garmatical reason
/ / = outline expansion

The basic text is that of The Tale of the Nauglafring.
Since full-text quoting is not appropirate any longer, I will only give the starting words of each paragraph of the basic text and all editions or delitions, but not the regular changes.

§30 (§21) Now tells the tale that the Nauglath fared home again, and if their greed had been kindled when first RD-AM-01 <editorial addition they saw> the gold{ was brought to Nogrod} now was it a fierce flame of desire, and moreover they burnt under the insults of the king. Indeed all that folk love gold and silver more dearly than aught else on Earth, while that treasury was haunted by a spell and by no means were they armed against it. Now RD-AM-02 { one there had been, Fangluin the aged, who had Counselled them from the first never to return the king's loan, for said he: ‘Ufedhin we may later seek by guile to release, if it seem good,’ but at that time this seemed not policy to Naugladur their lord, who desired not warfare with the Elves.Yet now} did Fangluin <moved from above the aged> jeer at them mightily on their return, saying they had flung away their labour for a botcher's wage and a draught of wine and gotten dishonour thereto, and he played upon their lust{, and Ufedhin joined his bitter words thereto}. Therefore did Naugladur<moved from above their lord> hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and sate his greed.

§31 (§22) Yet after long pondering ... such come thither RD-AM-03{ unaided by treachery from within}.

§32 (§23) Now even as those aged ones sat ... nor more than RD-AM-04 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, ...

§33 (§24) This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves RD-AM-05 {, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the kin of Melko}. Secretly he let send to the {Indrafangs}[Firebeards] RD-AM-06 asking<Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>, because they <Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome>{ that they}. But the Broadbeams did prepare their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name, whenso the time should be ripe; and a hidden forging of bitter steel then was in RD-AM-07 [Nogrod.]{Belegost the dwelling of the Indrafangs. Moreover he gathered about him a great host of the Orcs, and wandering goblins, promising them a good wage, and the pleasure of their Master moreover, and a rich booty at the end; and all these he armed with his own weapons.} Now came unto Naugladur an Elf, and he was one of {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s folk, RD-AM-07 { and he offered to lead that host through the magics of Gwendelin,} for he was bitten by the gold-lust of {Glorund's}[Glaurung's] hoard, and so did the curse of Mîm come upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol] and treachery first arose among the Elves of {Artanor}[Doriath]. Then did Naugladur {[?}smile{]} bitterly, for he knew that the time was ripe and {Tinwelint}[Thingol] delivered to him.

§34 (§25) Now each year about ... next high moon but one RD-AM-08 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now RD-AM-09 <editorial addition therefore> all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.

RD-AM-10 {§35 Now tells the tale that one came unto Tinwelint, and Tinwelint knew him not for the wild growth of his hair -- and lo! it was Mablung, and he said: ‘Lo, even in the depths of the forest have we heard that this year you will celebrate the death of Karkaras with a high-tide greater than even before, O King -- and behold I have returned to bear you company.’ And the king was full ofmirth and fain to greet Mablung the brave; and at the words of Mablung that Huan captain of Dogs was come also into Artanor was he glad indeed.}

§36 (§26) Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode forth a-hunting, ... Beside him rode Mablung the Heavyhand in the place of honour by reason of his deeds at that great hunt aforetime RD-AM-11 { - but Huan of the Dogs was ahead of the hunters, and men thought that great dog bore him strangely, but mayhap there was something in the wind that day liked not}.

§37a (§27) RD-AM-12 <HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}/No Tale tales how it was/ contrived that Thingol {is}/was/ lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders ><moved from below but there the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the Nauglath - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and Mablung and the king fell side by side - but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] after he was dead, for living he dared not so near to his bright sword or the axe of Mablung.>

§37b (§28) RD-AM-13 {Now is} But now it must be told, that when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grow faint in the deep forest, {but}did {Gwendelin}[Melian] sit{s} in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems there is a rat that gnaws the threads and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word <moved from below did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of {Artanor}[Doriath], and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour;> RD-AM-14 and <Sil77 Melian sat long in silence beside <editorial addition the throne of> Thingol the King, and her thought passed back into the starlit years and to their first meeting among the nightingales of Nan Elmoth in ages past; and she knew that her parting from Thingol was the forerunner of a greater parting, and that the doom of Doriath was drawing nigh. For Melian was of the divine race of the Valar, and she was a Maia of great power and wisdom; but for love of Elwë Singollo she took upon herself the form of the Elder Children of Ilúvatar, and in that union she became bound by the chain and trammels of the flesh of Arda. In that form she bore to him Lúthien Tinúviel; and in that form she gained a power over the substance of Arda, and by the Girdle of Melian was Doriath defended through long ages from the evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies.

§37c (§29) Thereafter Melian spoke to none save to RD-AM-15 {Mablung}[Nielthi] only, bidding her{him take heed to the Silmaril, and} to send word speedily to Beren and Lúthien in Ossiriand; and she vanished out of Middle-earth, and passed to the land of the Valar beyond the western sea, to muse upon her sorrows in the gardens of Lórien, whence she came, and this tale speaks of her no more.

§38 (§30) Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel.{ Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower, and behold, a}And a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Nauglath] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.

§39 (§30) RD-AM-16 {Then did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten those}Valiantly the few guards that remained{ to her} and had fared not to the hunt{, and valiantly they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.

§40 Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure RD-AM-17 .{, and lo! one came and sate ... but already is he come.’} And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. RD-AM-18 { Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but}And Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod RD-AM-19 { - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Gwendelin Queen of Artanor shall fare with me.’ … here we take out the next paragraph and the §-break Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook RD-AM-20 .{, and bib size her: ... here we take out the rest of these § and the next one until … And she said suddenly: ‘What evil then has fallen upon Artanor?’ and Huan said}

§41 taken out

§42 taken out

As before the discussion wil follow in the next post.

Respectfully
Findegil

[ November 16, 2003: Message edited by: Findegil ]

Edited to change format.

[Findegil]

Discussion of my changes with a comparision to Maedhros version in the privat forum:

§30 Since Maedhros used the Sil77 version were the dwarves were driven from Menegroth by force and only a few returned, he used only the first sentences and then took up the Sil 77. His version of the § reads:

§ 30 TN**/[ {Now tells the tale that the {Firebeards} [dwarves of Nogrod] fared home again, and if} their greed had been kindled {when first the gold was brought to Nogrod now was it} [to] a fierce flame of desire, and moreover they burnt under the insults of the king.
**QS77/ They told [to their king Naugladur] somewhat of all that had befallen, saying that the Dwarves were slain in Doriath by command of the Elvenking, who thus would cheat them of their reward./ Indeed all that folk love gold and silver more dearly than aught else on Earth, while that treasury was haunted by a spell and by no means were they armed against it. Therefore did Naugladur hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon Thingol, and sate his greed.]

§31 Here we go nearly conform. Meadhros only took out the last but one halfsentence which I keept in.

§32 I liked Meadhros new idea to insert here the asking for aid in Belegost, but I found his way to insert it awakward his § reads:

§ 32 [Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold {a sound of horns, and} [Naugladur had sent] messengers {were come from} [to] Bodruith of the Broadbeams, a kindred of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms. Now these {brought tidings of the death of Mîm the fatherless at the hand of Húrin and the rape of Glaurung's gold, which tale had but new come to Bodruith's ears. Now hitherto the Dwarves knew not the full tale concerning that hoard, nor more than Ufedhin might tell hearing} [told the Broadbeams about] the speech in Thingol's halls, [and asked for their aid, but it was denied to them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose; but their counsel was unavailing]. {and Húrin had not spoken the full count thereof ere he departed.} [Now] {H}[h]earing therefore these tidings [from Belegost,] new wrath was added to their lust and a clamour arose among them, and Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged – “and, more,” said he, “meseems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves”.] RD-R-02

I think that it can be taken for sure that Húrin did not tell that he had slain Mîm, when he cast the treasure to Thingols feet. We can assume that Thingol did not even knew of the existance of Mîm. So the messnager from Belegost, who did tell the dwarves how the treassure was stolen from Mîm who was killed in the event, are still possible and I think they are even likely. So I toke that §.

§33 Here I tokeup Meadhros idea of the denied aid form Belegost. Since Meadhros had already done so in §32 he did not make the additions from Sil77 and UT. He also toke out Narthseg which I would like to hold. His treachery is now only the time of the hunt, but that is an essential infrmation for Naugladur.

$34 I only toke out the sign to the Indrafagns. While Maedhros but the part of the knowledge of Naugladur of that hunt on the end of §33.

§35 I don't understand why Meadhros toke out only half of the §. If Mablung was out in the forest he could come to Thingol with wild grown hair. But as I precived Mablung he was often in Menegroth and that he would participat in memorial hunt is quite natural. So I take the § out.

§36 & §37a Meadhros § reads:

§ 36 [Behold now Thingol the king rode forth a-hunting, and more glorious was his array than ever aforetime, {and the helm of gold was above his flowing locks, and with gold were the trappings of his steed adorned; and the sunlight amid the trees fell upon his face, and it seemed to those that beheld it like to the glorious face of the sun at morning;} for about his throat was clasped the Nauglamír, the Necklace of the Dwarves. Beside him rode Mablung the Heavy Hand {in the place of honour by reason of his deeds at that great hunt aforetime -- but Huan of the Dogs was ahead of the hunters, and men thought that great dog bore him strangely, but mayhap there was something in the wind that day liked not}. [along with the royal guard of the King. It chanced that the company of the King was separated from the main host, and some say that it was the curse of the gold that made his company depart from the protection of the Girdle and they [were] surprised [by the host of Naugladur and] Thingol {and he} was slained.]] RD-M-02

I did not take out the new gear of Thingol, since I have left the smithing of it. Also I do not see why Thingol would go to the hunt with a host, he goes onto a hunt not in warfare. And if we have a host, than wy not let the host be killed by the dwarves? It is nice to name the cruse as the reason why Thingol left the girdle but I find it to risky. I dealed with that in §37a. I toke first the remark form the Tale of years and was ambigous about the "how it was contrived" and then told the death of Thingol dirctly not in re-vision of Melian as in The Tale of the Nauglafing.

§37b - §42 Meadhros toke Melian as the Messanger for Beren and Lúthien. But when she would be smart enough to tell Beren the story so that he could revenge Thingol, why would she lift the girdle? I think she must leave Middle-Earth at once when Thingol is dead. For me that is what the note in The Tale of the Years means.

§37b & §37c I let the talk to the Elven maid Nielthi stand and I even used she later as the one Melian would tell to seek Beren and Luthien. Since Mablung is killed beside the king.

§38 I toke the tale of the invasion from the Sil77 and fitted it in here.

§39 Melian is already gone in my version of this §.

§40 As above, so the § is much shorter and only takes up the laughter of Naugladur from further below.

§41 & §42 Since Melian is gone nothing is left in Version of these §§.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Findegil]

This is the first draft of an expansion of the storyline-version. Our basis text is: The History of Middle-Earth; volume 4; The Shaping of Middle-Earth; chapter III: The Quenta Noldorinwa (Q30).

We have three groups of changes:

RD-zz: General changes given and discussed in the thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. These changes are taken up here, but they are not indicated by "editorial markers"

RD-SL-zz: Changes done to make the storyline fit our understanding developed in the Thread “**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread**”. In that thread I made the mistake to mark them with FD-SL-zz. But the numbers are identical. My apologise if that change does produce a mass now. Some numbers are missing, but that is normal since some of the points of the storyline-discussion did not produce any change in the text.

RD-EX-zz For expansions taken from some other source to make the story more detailed. This also includes some changes made in the expansion, which I marked for easier reference.

At the beginning we have to create a transition from The Wanderingas of Húrin (WH). Over all the basis text will show trough not to much I think. But we will use it as a leading guideline and any part that is exchanged for some other text should be shown. As before, I start with §266 of WH, which is the last of that text.

I have tried to stick to the §-numbering done by Maédhros for his first draft, so that a comparison between that draft #1, my own earlier Version and the current text will be easier. In addition I have numbered the § anew in brackets starting with §267 in continuation of WH and starting over again when we come to the purposed chapter break. If a § of the basic-text is deleted completely it is not numbered.

As it has some value as a double-check during my work I will give here in addition to the edited version a clean text version.

Some conventions of my writing:
Normal Text is from the basic text that is mentioned above (when I change the basic-Text it will be mentioned)
Bold Text = source information, comments and remarks
{ } = text that should be deleted
[ ] = normalised text
<source > = additions with source information
example = text inserted for grammatical reason
/ / = outline expansion
Normally if an inserted text includes the beginning of a new § these is indicated by a missing “>” at the end of the § and a missing “<” at the beginning of the next. But the source information is repeated before each §. But some times the new § was taken as an new add and handled accordingly.

Here after is given the Version for the public forum. I have ripped it of some of the textual content in many § by inerting dots instead. These dots conceal only General changes (RD-zz), all other changes are given so that they can (hopefuly) be understood.

§30 (§15) RD-EX-49 <TN Now tells the tale that the Nauglath fared home again, and if their greed had been kindled when first RD-EX-50 <editorial addition they saw> the gold{ was brought to Nogrod} now was it a fierce flame … armed against it. Now one there was{ had been}, Fangluin the aged, RD-EX-51 {who had Counselled … the Elves. Yet now}and he did{ Fangluin} jeer at them mightily on their return, saying they had flung away their labour for a botcher's wage and a draught of wine and gotten dishonour thereto, and he played upon their lust{, and Ufedhin joined his bitter words thereto}. Therefore did Naugladur<moved from above their lord> hold a secret council of the Dwarves of Nogrod, and sought how he might both be avenged upon {Tinwelint}[Thingol], and sate his greed.>

§31 (§16) RD-EX-52 <TN Yet after long pondering … could any such come thither RD-SL-20{ unaided by treachery from within}.>RD-EX-53 <TN But{and} Naugladur vowed to rest not ere {Mîm was}[his craftsman ]were thrice avenged - ‘and, more,’ said he, ‘me seems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves.’>

§33 (§17) {Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod RD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, RD-SL-20c {and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they RD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly.}} RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. Secretly he let send to {the Indrafangs}[Lord Bodruith his kin] RD-SL-18 asking<Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>, because they <Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome>{ that they} RD-EX-55 . But the Dwarves of Nogrod did prepare their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name, whenso the time should be ripe; and a hidden forging of bitter steel then was in [Nogrod.]{Belegost the dwelling of the Indrafangs.}>

§34 (§18) RD-EX-56 <TN Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt … in the forest. Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[did know], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one RD-EX-57 {, and straightway he sent the trysted sign, a bloodstained knife, to Bodruith at Belegost}. Now RD-EX-58 <editorial addition at that time> all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.>

§36 (§19) RD-EX-59 <TN Behold now {Tinwelint}[Thingol] the king rode … great hunt aforetime>.

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}these hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the Nauglath - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and Mablung and the king fell side by side - but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] after he was dead, for living he dared not so near to his bright sword or the axe of Mablung.>

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 {Now is} But now it must be told, that when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grow faint in the deep forest, {but}did {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sit in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou … hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems there is a editorial change{rat that gnaws the threads}thread[ is riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word >RD-EX-61 <Sil77 Melian sat long in silence {beside Thingol the King}[in her bower], and her thought passed back into the starlit years and to their first meeting among the nightingales of Nan Elmoth in ages past; and she knew that her parting from Thingol <editorial addition at his riding forth> was the forerunner of a greater parting, and … evils without. But now Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies>.

§38 (§22) {<HoME11; The Tale of The YearsThen Melian {departs}departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.> {, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered;}} RD-EX-62 <Sil77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel. Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower, and behold, a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Nauglath] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.>

§39 (§23) RD-EX-64 <TN Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] know well that her foreboding was true, and that {treachery}[doom] had found … tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.>

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65 <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure, and lo! one came and sate him in the high seat of the king laughing loud, and{ Gwendelin saw that it was Ufedhin, and} mocking he bid {her}Melian be seated in her ancient seat beside the king's. Then {Gwendelin}[Melain] gazed upon him so that his glance fell, and she said: ‘Wherefore, O renegade, dost thou defile my lord's seat? Little had I thought to see {any of the Elves}[anyone] sit there, a robber, stained with murder, a league-fellow of the truceless enemies{ of his kin}. Or thinkest thou it is a glorious deed to assail an ill-armed house what time its lord is far away?’ But {Ufedhin}[that dwarf] said nought, shunning the bright eyes of {Gwendelin}[Melian], wherefore said she anew: ‘Get thee now gone with thy foul {Orcs}[comrades], lest {Tinwelint}[Thingol] coming repay thee bitterly.’>

§40b (§25) <TN Then at last did {Ufedhin}[the dwarf] answer, and he … ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’ Then said {Gwendelin}[Melian]: ‘Thief and murderer, {child of Melko}[liege of Morgoth], yet art thou a fool, for thou canst not see what hangs over thine own head.’ By reason of the anguish of her heart was her sight grown very clear, and she read by her {fay}[Maia]-wisdon the curse of Mîm and much of what would yet betide.>

§40c (§26) <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for as they came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other, and {Gwendelin}[Melian] went forth from the places of her abode, and her bitter weeping filled the forest.> {and}And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. {RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien.}

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

§33 (§17) {Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod RD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, RD-SL-20c {and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they RD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly.}} RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of Morgoth.

Why chagne kin to following?

I would add the following parragraph between 34 and 36:

§ 35 Now tells the tale that one came unto Thingol, {and Thingol knew him not for the wild growth of his hair} -- and lo! it was Mablung, and he said: “Lo, even in the depths of the forest have we heard that this year you will celebrate the death of Carcharoth with a high-tide greater than even before, O King -- and behold I have returned to bear you company.” And the king was full of mirth and fain to greet Mablung the brave{; and at the words of Mablung that Huan captain of Dogs was come also into Doriath was he glad indeed}.

I don't see why this detail can't be included in the story.

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}these hunt with but small company of arms and

I think that this sounds odd. I would use:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms and

Only change these to the.

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 {Now is} But now it must be told, that when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grow faint in the deep forest, {but}did Melian {sits}sit in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And Melian said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in Doriath are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose Thingol then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}[the Elfmaid] said: ‘Nay, O Lady Melian, hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems there is a editorial change{rat that gnaws the threads}thread[ is riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

First, I would eliminate the name Nielthi because I'm not sure that it is a valid Sindarin name.
The part that is in bold to me it is weird.

On another note, I think that it is interesting the way you attributed the deeds of Ufedhin to the dwarves. I wonder if Aiwendil will be ok with that. I am.

[Findegil]

§33 kin -> following: kin of Morogth in the old concept of Orcs called "children of Morogth" is acceptable, nut know I find it very odd, after eben Gothmog as his son was scipt. Maybe my understanding of "kin" is to limited.

§35 I thought about that myself, and if we will include it, I would also retain the "wild growth of his hair" since it would so nicely backflash to Túrin and Saeros and I can't see a problem when a warrior returns from the border fight that he is uncempt and thereby unrecognisable - but as yet we have meet Mablung in Doriath ever at Menegroth. He was the cheife thane of Thingol and not the head of the border forces (that was Beleg as long as he lived). So in my view it was dubious if we would not introduce a change in the role of Mablung, coming back to the king (obviously from the broder fights in the circumstances of the later Doriath). But I might be overinterpreting in this. And I am open for the addition, if you and Aiwendil think it is okay.

§37a these hunt -> the hunt: I wanted to make the back reference that it is more clear. But when when you find it odd, we can as well takt "the".

§37b the name Nielthi: I am fare from an expert in Sindarin, I do not even no the basics, so I don't know. If the name is not use able it is easy to make her an anonymous maiden of Melian.

§37b Melians comment on the unwoven web: Since we have taken Q30 as a basis here, we have the girdle removed while Melian is in Menegroth. I considered taht sentence for delition, but I could find no reason why Melian would not answer in such a pictures way when forbonding was heavy on her. But the "rat that gnaws the threads" does hint at the treacherous elfs of TN, therefore the change. You yourself suggested, that she lost control over the girdle because here conection to it was through Thingol, thus I found the "riven thread" a fitting replacment.

On another note, I think that it is interesting the way you attributed the deeds of Ufedhin to the dwarves. I wonder if Aiwendil will be ok with that. I am.

You mean the parts in dialogues that I change from Ufedhin. Well, if we disire to have these dialogous include, and I do disire it, we have to give his speech to someone else, and anonymous dwarves seemed to fit best. In Menegroth I found it even more fitting to have someone else to encounter Melian first. As it seemed Naugladur never was in the formost front of any fight. And after the death of Thingol he did play first with his dead foe before he moved on to the plundering of Menegroth. But I anticipate your doubts about Aiwendil and this treatment of the material. And I have no doubts that he will rise some valid points against them that we have not thought of.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

§35 I thought about that myself, and if we will include it, I would also retain the "wild growth of his hair" since it would so nicely backflash to Túrin and Saeros and I can't see a problem when a warrior returns from the border fight that he is uncempt and thereby unrecognisable - but as yet we have meet Mablung in Doriath ever at Menegroth. He was the chief thane of Thingol and not the head of the border forces (that was Beleg as long as he lived). So in my view it was dubious if we would not introduce a change in the role of Mablung, coming back to the king (obviously from the broder fights in the circumstances of the later Doriath). But I might be overinterpreting in this. And I am open for the addition, if you and Aiwendil think it is okay.

I don't think that a change in Mablung rôle is warranted just because he was "even in the depths of the forest have we heard that this year you will celebrate the death of Carcharoth with a high-tide greater than even before, O King", it could be that he was at the forest in that particular time.

§37b Melians comment on the unwoven web: Since we have taken Q30 as a basis here, we have the girdle removed while Melian is in Menegroth. I considered taht sentence for delition, but I could find no reason why Melian would not answer in such a pictures way when forbonding was heavy on her. But the "rat that gnaws the threads" does hint at the treacherous elfs of TN, therefore the change. You yourself suggested, that she lost control over the girdle because here conection to it was through Thingol, thus I found the "riven thread" a fitting replacment.

You misunderstand me. I do not think that it should be deleted but reworded.

[Findegil]

As promised in the **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** I will provide the Death of Thingol as it could be without Mablung and with the note taken into account. §35 as suggested by Maédhros above must be left out also:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain. Yet in the end were they all fordone, and {Mablung and} the king[‘s thanes] fell{ side} by[ his] side - but Naugladur it was who swept off the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] after {he was dead} RD-SL-23 <TN, Note 12 {Against this sentence my father wrote a direction that the story was to be that} the {Nauglafring}[Nauglamír] caught in the bushes and held the king>, for {living}[so long as Thingol could fight] he dared not so near to his bright sword{ or the axe of Mablung}.>

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-49: Nauglath > Naugrim again.

RD-EX-51

and he did{ Fangluin} jeer at them mightily on their return

I would prefer:

and did he { Fangluin} jeer at them mightily on their return

. . . preserving the original word order.

RD-SL-20

I don't see the need for this deletion. We have changed the story so as to eliminate in actual fact the treachery of the Elves. But this is just a general statement that without the aid of treachery from within, the Girdle cannot be breached.

I'm just slightly perplexed here:

§33 (§17) {Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod RD-SL-18 {and in Belegost} they returned at length, RD-SL-20c {and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they RD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly.}}

Am I correct that RD-SL-18, RD-SL-20c, and RD-SL-21a indicated here are completely irrelevant, since the whole passage is deleted? It's only that I don't see the point of putting those changes in in such a case.

RD-SL-18

Secretly he let send to {the Indrafangs}[Lord Bodruith his kin] RD-SL-18 asking <Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied them, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>,

We need, for the grammar, to make this:

Secretly he let send to {the Indrafangs}[Lord Bodruith his kin] RD-SL-18 asking <Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied {them} [him], and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>,

Also I think perhaps a more straightforward substitution for "the Indrafangs" would be simply "Belegost".

RD-EX-55

The "did" for past tense here sounds a bit awkward to me (and this is an editorial addition if I read it right). I would rather say:

But the Dwarves of Nogrod prepare[d] their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name

RD-EX-56

Same thing here.

Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet}[did know], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one

I would say:

Now Naugladur {learnt of that Elf Narthseg, whose name is bitter to the Eldar yet} [knew], that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one

RD-EX-58

I don't understand the addition of "at that time".

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a} these hunt with but small company of arms

"These" should be "this". But actually I would prefer "the", since there's no possibility of confusion concerning which hunt we are talking about.

The addition from TY is, of course, awkward. The phrase "somehow it must be contrived" was obviously never intended to stand in any narrative, and it's straightforward replacement "somehow they contrived it" is no better. But I suppose any emendation would have to be called stylistic. Nevertheless, I would in at least this particular case prefer a minor fix, like:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a} the hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be} for they contrived it that Thingol {is} was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}>

Still awkward, but not quite as bad.

RD-EX-60

{Now is} But now it must be told, that when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grow faint in the deep forest, {but}did {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sit in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes.

Couldn't we change this to present tense more straightforwardly with:

Now {is} [was] the king far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} [grew] faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} [sat] in her bower and foreboding {is}[was] in her heart and eyes.

RD-EX-60

But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems there is a editorial change{rat that gnaws the threads}thread[ is riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

This does not work as written. Perhaps what was meant was:

But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems {there is a rat that gnaws}the threads [are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’

RD-EX-61

Even at that word> RD-EX-61 <Sil77 Melian sat long in silence {beside Thingol the King}[in her bower]

The words "Even at that word" seem not to fit if they introduce Melian sitting long and in silence. I would delete them.

This long addition from QS77: does it have a source? If so, I'd rather follow the source than the '77. If not, I don't see any need to use all this text of CRT's invention here. We could, in fact cut straight from "Even at that word" to "Thingol lay dead", so:

Even at that word, <<SQ77 Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn in that time from the forests of Neldoreth and Region, and Esgalduin the enchanted river spoke with a different voice, and Doriath lay open to its enemies>.

RD-EX-62

Again - wouldn't it be preferrable to use Q here rather than the '77? We shouldn't use CRT's text simply because we prefer it or because it's more vivid.

RD-EX-63

and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel.

This does not really make grammatical sense, I think. We could change "by" to "of". I don't have HoMe II at hand to check the original context of the prepositional phrase.

Also, another Nauglath > Naugrim here.

§40b (§25)

‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire.

Am I wrong, or does this refer to the Orcs that accompaniede the Dwarves in the original TN? I don't see how the editorial addition helps. I would delete this whole piece.

Thinking about the storyline discussion again, I wonder whether it would be better to attempt an ambiguity as to whether the girdle failed because Melian departed or Melian departed because the Girdle failed. We could add at the end of §37b (§21) a simple statement that Melian departed, and then remove her from the following material (which would necessitate significant curtailment) - that, I think, would achieve such an ambiguity.

The names "Naugladur", "Bodruith", and "Nielthi" all need thought ("Fangluin" is another old name, but I think it works fine in later Sindarin). I will research the latter two when I get a chance. "Naugladur" is interesting. If it is to be fit into later Sindarin it surely must mean "Dwarf-servant". One could suppose that it was a later name used anachronistically here, given because he entered into the service of Thingol (if only through his craftsmen). But all other "-dur" names I can think of denote friendship or service to the first element in the name. "Isildur" means "servant of the Moon", not "a Moon that is also a servant". So "Naugladur" ought to mean "servant of the Dwarves" - a very curious name for the lord of Belegost.

But that may be irrelevant. It's hard to see how the name fits, but unless some other etymology exists in Gnomish (and not in Sindarin), this is Tolkien's problem, not ours.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-51 Are you sure that "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." is what you want? I would at least add a "now" after the "and":

Now one there was{ had been}, Fangluin the aged, RD-EX-51 {who had Counselled them from the first never to return the king's loan, for said he: ‘Ufedhin we may later seek by guile to release, if it seem good,’ but at that time this seemed not policy to Naugladur their lord, who desired not warfare with the Elves. Yet now}and now did {Fangluin}he jeer at them mightily on their return, ...

Posted by Aiwendil:

RD-SL-20

I don't see the need for this deletion. We have changed the story so as to eliminate in actual fact the treachery of the Elves. But this is just a general statement that without the aid of treachery from within, the Girdle cannot be breached.

To which deletion did you reffer here? If it is the first sentence of §33, then this has been deleted because it was replaced by the following expansion RD-EX-54. I did show RD-SL-18, RD-SL-20c, and RD-SL-21a, which are rendered irrelevant in this sentence, because we did agree on them in the storyline discussion, and I wanted this text to show all developments starting from that text. In a more finished version I would deleat the now useless changes.

RD-SL-18:
"them" -> "him": Agreed.
"the Indrafangs" -> "Lord Bodruith his kin" or "Belegost":
I did insert Bodruith here because his name would be lost otherwise. But if the name bears a problem, as you thing it does, than this was a cacophany idea, and we will rather take "Belegost".

RD-EX-55 & RD-EX-56: Agreed.

RD-EX-58:
Without the addition the § would read:

§34 (§18) Now each year about the time of the great wolf-hunt of Beren Thingol was wont to keep the memory of that day by a hunt in the woods, and it was a very mighty chase and thronged with very many folk, and nights of merriment and feasting were there in the forest. Now Naugladur knew, that the king would fare a-hunting at the next high moon but one. Now all that host assembled on the confines of the woods, and no word came yet unto the king.

Wouldn't that mean that the dwarves assembled at the borders of Doriath when the first sentence is true, thus more than a month before the hunt?

§37a:
"a hunt" -> "the hunt": Agreed.
The addition from TY: I agree that your sentece does read better, beside the fact that we should delet the "and" at the end of the first sentence. But is the lose of "Somehow" wanted? I think we should retain it. It the clearest statment that we do not know, even more that Tolkien did not know. If we skip it it reads as if we do simple not tell, not indicating at all if we know how they did it or not. Thus I suggest:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain.

Posted by Aiwendil:

Thinking about the storyline discussion again, I wonder whether it would be better to attempt an ambiguity as to whether the girdle failed because Melian departed or Melian departed because the Girdle failed. We could add at the end of §37b (§21) a simple statement that Melian departed, and then remove her from the following material (which would necessitate significant curtailment) - that, I think, would achieve such an ambiguity.

I took Q30 as a guideline, there it is said that: "Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she went forth to seek Beren and Luthien."
But that might be wrong in view of TY and the famous note. I have rereade the development from Ab1 through Ab2 and the many stages of TY to the famous note. In other places I have argued that the phrases used do not change and that the lose of some details in TY is thus only caused by compresion. The same seems to be true here but teh note does change this. AB2 is in agrement with Q30:

502 Here the Dwarves came in force from Nogrod and from Belegost and invaded Doriath; and they came within by treachery, for many Elves were smitten with the accursed lust of the gold. Thingol was slain and the Thousand Caves were plundered; and there hath been war between Elf and Dwarf since that day. But Melian the Queen could not be slain or taken, and she departed to Ossiriand. ...

But already in the first draft of TY called 'A' by Christopher Tolkien, which alone of all these drafts does repreasent the story of Beren regaining the Silmaril from the Dwarves, reads:

502 The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian returns to Valinor. Beren destroys the Dwarf-host at Rath-loriel.

Since Christopher Tolkien writes in the § before "As the manuscript was originally made (in which condition I will distinguish it as 'A') the entries from 500 to the end, very brief, followed the first (pre-Lord of the Rings) version of The Tale of Years (see p. 342) closely: my father clearly had that in front of him, and did no more than make a fair copy with fuller entries, introducing virtually no new matter or dates not found in AB 2 (V.141 - 4)." Thus we could still argue that the absent of Melian from the fight in Doriath could still be caused by the further compression of the story from AB2 to TY, but we are not sure. It would again be intersting to read the version of 'TY' that was accomping AB2. I think that Melain was still seen as beeing in Menegroth when it was taken, because of TY 'C'. But first let's have TY 'B':

503 Birth of Earendil in Gondolin.
The Dwarves invade Doriath. Thingol is slain and his realm ended. Melian takes Nauglamir to Beren and Luthien and then returns to Valinor. ...

This is again to short to be sure of the detailed chronology of Melians movment, but TY 'C' reads:

503 The Dwarves of Belegost and Nogrod invade Doriath. Thingol is slain, and his realm ended. The Dwarves carry off the Dragon-gold, but Melian escaped and carried off the Nauglamir and the Silmaril, and brought it to Beren and Luthien. Then she returned to Valinor; but Luthien wore the Silmaril. ...

"But Melian escaped" is for me still an indication that she did witness the sake of Menegroth. TY 'D' reads nearly exactly like 'C' and I will not give it here. What then follows is only the note:

Doriath cannot be entered by a hostile army! Somehow it must be contrived that Thingol is lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and is there slain by the Dwarves. Then Melian departs, and the girdle being removed Doriath is ravaged by the Dwarves.

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text. Thus it seems I was again blinded by the desire for textual details.

I will still go one with the comments to Aiwendils points since not all will be lost by the earlier depature of Melian.

RD-EX-60:
If we write "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company,. ..." we would jump back in the timeline without a clear indication. I think we need at least "Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, ..."

"... {there is a rat that gnaws}the threads [are riven] ...": Agreed.

RD-EX-61:
The long addition from Sil77 has no direct source as fare as I know. If you think we should not use it then we will skip it. For the new versin of it see further down.

RD-EX-62:
We have no other source for a the invasion into Doriath of the dwarves after the death of Thingol, beside the pure statment in the note. Thus I think the additon from Sil77 is needed her. And as fare as I have understood the old discussion between you and Lindil such addition are allowed in such circumstances.

RD-EX-63:
Sorry, I can't see your point here. The "cry" that grew to "a firece noise by the clash of steel" did not strike me as grammaticaly bad, other than that a cry does not grew by additional noises. But any way you are more likely to know your gramma then I am. so if you want a change we will make one, but the change of "by" -> "of" is very awakward, in my view by the duplication of "of" in such a short distance.

§40b:

‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire.

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

About the names:
Naugladur: Can it not be meant as: "Obsessed (devoted) servant of the Dwarvish interrests". Such a meaning would very well fit the role he plays in RoD.
Bodruith: His name is not part of text as edited by us, if we do not insert him. So I think it would be better to skip him then to update the name.
Nielthi: Don't spent to much time on her name. It isn't a problem to skip the name but retain the role she plays anonymus.

What follows is the text for the story of Melian departing imidiatly after Thingols death:

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word >RD-EX-61b <Sil77 {But now} Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.>

§38 (§22) <HoME11; The Tale of The Years Then Melian {departs}departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.> {, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered;} RD-EX-62b <Sil77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5 Then {went Gwendelin unafraid forth from her bower, and behold,} a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.>

§39 (§23) RD-EX-64b <TN Then {did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten }those few guards that remained{ to her} and had fared not to the hunt{, and} valiantly{ they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.>

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long fled and when then pursuer> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>. And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian RD-EX-65.4{ the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.} RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

This will have some follow-up changes in the next part. When we close the discussion on this point I will bring forth post with the changes in that thread.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text. Thus it seems I was again blinded by the desire for textual details.

I have to agree with that. But I still maintain my point that Melian leaves Menegroth to Ossiriand in order to warn Beren and Lúthien as to what happened in Menegroth.

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms {and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}for somehow they contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. Long they fought bitterly{ there} among the trees, and the {Nauglath}[Naugrim] - for such were their foes - had great scathe of them or ever they were slain.

I like this one better.

Regarding this:

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long fled and when then pursuer> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>.{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. {RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian RD-EX-65.4{ the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.} RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

I would make the following change:

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long fled {and when they pursue her> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>}.{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. {RD-SL-23 But Queen Melian RD-EX-65.4{ the Dwarves could not seize or harm, and she} went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.} RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

I agree with this.

[Findegil]

Posted by Maédhros:

I have to agree with that. But I still maintain my point that Melian leaves Menegroth to Ossiriand in order to warn Beren and Lúthien as to what happened in Menegroth.

Agreed, and that is exactly what our §40c does say.

Regarding your changes in §40a and §40c:
I could not find any change introduced by you in §40a. Please explain what you meant to change.
In §40c I found an error in my editing which I have corrected (bad idea I know, sorry) (The halfe sentence "{ and Gwendelin went forth from the places of her abode{and}" must not be added, if we are going to delet it, and the "{" before RD-SL-23 had slipt in unintentionly.)
To make things cleraer I will give my text here in plain text

§37b (§21) Now when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grew faint in the deep forest, but Melian sat in her bower and foreboding was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And Melian said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in Doriath are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose Thingol then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady Melian, hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems the threads are riven and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.

§38 (§22) Then Melian departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath was ravaged by the Dwarves. Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and there was a cry about the doors of the Thousand Caves, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise by the clash of steel. Then a sudden multitude of Naugrim held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.

§39 (§23) Then those few guards that remained and had fared not to the hunt valiantly warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.

§40a (§24) Then did those Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure. And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of Thingol crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs of Morgoth plunder, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Melian Queen of Doriath shall fare with me.’

§40c (§26) Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for she had long fled and when then pursuer came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other. And so was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand. But Queen Melian went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien, and her bitter weeping filled the forest.

Reading it thus I find the break between §37b and §38 a bit hard. Maybe we should try to do it better. What follows is a more riscy editing:

§37b (§21) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow} grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits} sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems editorial change{there is a rat that gnaws} the threads[ are riven] and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word >RD-EX-61b <Sil77 {But now} Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian.>RD-EX-61.1 <TN Then did {Gwendelin}[Melian] see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of {Artanor}[Doriath], and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; >and RD-EX-61.2<TN {Then}[she] did{ Gwendelin} know well that her foreboding was true, and that {treachery}[doom] had found her realm at last>. RD-EX-61.3<TN Then went {Gwendelin}[Melian] unafraid forth from her bower,> RD-EX-61.4<TN yet did she hearten those few guards that remained {to her}[in Menegroth] and had fared not to the hunt>RD-EX-61.5 <Q30 RD-SL-23 {Queen Melian the Dwarves could not seize or harm}, and she went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien{.}> RD-EX-65.5 <TN , and her bitter weeping filled the forest.>

§38 (§22) <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Then}When Melian {departs}departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.> {, and the fortress of the Thousand Caves taken at unawares and plundered;} RD-EX-62b <Sil77 Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise{ ...} by the clash of steel. RD-EX-63.5Then {went Gwendelin unafraid forth from her bower, and behold,} a sudden multitude of {Orcs and Indrafangs}[Naugrim] held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.>

§39 (§23) RD-EX-64b <TN Then {did Gwendelin know well that her foreboding was true, and that treachery had found her realm at last, yet did she hearten }those few guards{ that remained to her and had fared not to the hunt, and} valiantly{ they} warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.>

§40a (§24) RD-EX-65b <TN Then did those{ Orcs and} Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure>. RD-EX-65.1 <TN And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of {Tinwelint}[Thingol] crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then RD-EX-65.2{did Gwendelin see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Artanor, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; but} Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs <editorial addition of Morgoth plunder>{keep}, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’>

§40c (§26) RD-EX-65.3 <TN Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for {as they}<editorial aditon she had long gone and when then pursuing Dwarves> came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other>. So{so} was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.

In plain Text this reads:

§37b (§21) Now when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns grew faint in the deep forest, but Melian sat in her bower and foreboding was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid, Nielthi: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And Melian said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in Doriath are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose Thingol then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But Nielthi said: ‘Nay, O Lady Melian, hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ But the queen made answer: ‘Yet meseems the threads are riven and all the web has come unwoven.’ Even at that word Thingol lay dead, and his spirit had passed to the halls of Mandos; and with his death a change came also upon Melian. Then did Melian see in her heart all that had befallen, and how the curse of the gold had fallen on the realm of Doriath, and never has she danced or sung since that dark hour; and she did know well that her foreboding was true, and that doom had found her realm at last. Then went Melian unafraid forth from her bower, yet did she hearten those few guards that remained in Menegroth and had fared not to the hunt, and she went forth to seek Beren and Lúthien, and her bitter weeping filled the forest.

§38 (§22) When Melian departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath was ravaged by the Dwarves. Thus it was that the host of the Naugrim crossing over Aros passed unhindered into the woods of Doriath; and none withstood them, for they were many and fierce, and the captains of the Grey-elves were cast into doubt and despair, and went hither and thither purposeless. But the Dwarves held on their way, and there was a cry about the doors of the Thousand Caves, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise by the clash of steel. Then a sudden multitude of Naugrim held the bridge, and there was war within the cavernous gates; but that place ran with blood, and a great heap of slain lay there, for the onset had been secret and all unknown.

§39 (§23) Then those few guards valiantly warded the palace of the king until the tide of numbers bore them back and fire and blood found all the halls and deep ways of that great fortress of the Elves.

§40a (§24) Then did those Dwarves ransack all the chambers seeking for treasure. And behold, Naugladur entered now and a host of the Dwarves were about him, but he bore the head of Thingol crowned and helmed in gold; but the necklace of all wonder was clasped about the throat of Naugladur. Then Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs of Morgoth plunder, or slay, as they desire. Yet the Lady Melian Queen of Doriath shall fare with me.’

§40c (§26) Then did Naugladur in his triumph laugh till his beard shook, and bid seize her: but none might do so, for she had long gone and when then pursuing Dwarves came towards her they groped as if in sudden dark, or stumbled and fell tripping each the other. So was brought well nigh to ruin the glory of Doriath, and but one stronghold of the Elves against Morgoth now remained, and their twilight was nigh at hand.

I hope the plain text may bring some clearness.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-51:

Findegil wrote:

Are you sure that "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." is what you want? I would at least add a "now" after the "and"

I don't see a need for the extra "now".

RD-SL-20:

I was talking about this:

… could any such come thither RD-SL-20 {unaided by treachery from within}.>

Our removal of the treachery of the Elves in actual fact does not necessitate the removal of this hypothetical talk of the Dwarves.

RD-EX-58

Findegil wrote:

Wouldn't that mean that the dwarves assembled at the borders of Doriath when the first sentence is true, thus more than a month before the hunt?

It seems to me that the account is sufficiently compressed here that no precise chronology is implicated by our revision. In any case, if there were a problem, the addition of "at this time" surely would not solve it.

But is the lose of "Somehow" wanted? I think we should retain it. It the clearest statment that we do not know, even more that Tolkien did not know. If we skip it it reads as if we do simple not tell, not indicating at all if we know how they did it or not.

Well, "somehow" is the crux of the awkwardness, I think. We can either delete it to obtain something like good prose or retain it for the sake of ambiguity and accept that it reads poorly.

Actually, though, I don't really see "somehow" as doing any canonical or story-line work. What is the difference between "they contrived it" and "somehow they contrived it"? If "they contrived it" then clearly "somehow they contrived it". And why should it be so important that we indicate to the reader that we do not know the precise manner of the contrivance? I see nothing wrong with simply stating that "they contrived it" and nothing more.

The problem I see with removing "somehow" is another one - specifically, it seems to me to be a stylistic revision, and that is something we have specifically decided not to engage in. Yet we have already accepted minimal emendations that are surely stylistic; and clearly the sentence as we have it is not something Tolkien would have let stand in a narrative.

So in the end I lean toward my former proposal, removing "somehow".

Findegil wrote:

Here at least we have the change. It seems Melian first did depart and then the Dwarves saked Menegroth. Since the note is to be taken we have to change my text

Yes, I think you are right.

RD-EX-60

Findegil wrote:

If we write "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company,. ..." we would jump back in the timeline without a clear indication. I think we need at least "Now {is} when the king was far in the woods with all his company, ..."

I don't see a problem with "Now was the king far in the woods with all his company . . ."; I think it is clear from the context that we are moving back to Menegroth and back to a time before Thingol's death.

But I do see now (looking at TN) that we are making a jump backward in time that is not made in the original. So if you and Maedhros feel that the "wehn" is necessary, I can accept it.

RD-EX-63

Findegil wrote:

Sorry, I can't see your point here. The "cry" that grew to "a firece noise by the clash of steel" did not strike me as grammaticaly bad, other than that a cry does not grew by additional noises. But any way you are more likely to know your gramma then I am. so if you want a change we will make one, but the change of "by" -> "of" is very awakward, in my view by the duplication of "of" in such a short distance.

The problem is the preposition. I have no problem with a cry growing to a fierce noise, because of the clash of steel. But "by" is the wrong word (and note that Tolkien did not use "by" in this way; the deletion of the illegible words results in a grammatical problem). We could say "grew to a fierce noise by reason of the clash of steel" or ". . . with the clash of steel" if you prefer either of those to ". . . of the clash of steel" (and as a matter of fact I suspect that either of those options preserves the intended meaning better than "of").

§40b

Findegil wrote:

In the original this is addressed for the Orcs in Naugladurs host. They are gone in our version. But what I tried was to hold the sentence but change its meaning, so that now Naugladur reffers to the destroied relam of Doriath that he would leaf behind for the Orks of Morgoth to play with. Naugladur is here in a subtle way boasting that he had brought about the Ruin of Doriath that Morgoth could not accomplished in all the long wars of Beleriand.

And Maedhros:

I agree with this.

I'm afraid I still don't. Not to be petulant, but "to hold the sentence but change its meaning" is exactly what I'm against. I made a point (long ago) in the principles debate of specifying not only that we are not to alter Tolkien's words but also that we are not to alter their meaning. Now this particular situation is a minor one, but I think it's an important point, particularly in principle. In TN Naugladur says that what remains of goods or folk may be plundered by the rest of his host as they please. That is the total of the meaning of his statement. He does not in the original boast that he has brought the end of Doriath that even Morgoth could not accomplish. To put such an implication in our version is to invent a fact.

In most cases, it is the deletion of a piece of text that brings it away from Tolkien's intention, and that's why it's normally advisable to keep as much as we can. But we see that in cases like this one, the retention of the text brings it away from Tolkien's intention, because though the words are retained, their meaning is altered.

That's why I want to delete the reference to the Orcs.

About names:

Naugladur can surely stand.

Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand.

Bodruith: I remember now my objection to the name. According to "Names in the Lost Tales" in II, GL glosses "bodruith" as "revenge". Christopher Tolkien speculates (quite plausibly, I think) that the Lord of Belegost received this name as a result of his actions in TN. Since this part has been removed from our version, I would drop the name.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-51:
If you say the sentence is grammatically okay I can accept that with some reluctance. In that case every thing we would do seems to be an stylistic change. But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..."
For me that sounds much more natural.

RD-SL-20:
I have accepted that we do not use any treason by elves from Doriath, but with this phrase we would turn the story to its head. Do you agree with me, that based on the sources we have JRR Tolkien denied the possibility that treason would overcome the girdle?
Now what you suggest, would mean that the Dwarves did see a chance to over come the girdle of Melian if they could have found a traitor from Doriath. This believe of the Dwarves would not be gainsaid in our text at all. The simplest interpretation of such an text would be, that the Dwarves did not find a traitor. This would deny even the possibility of treason among the Sindar as the story goes.
In my view that would makes the story to explicit.

RD-EX-58:
Posted by Aiwendil:

It seems to me that the account is sufficiently compressed here that no precise chronology is implicated by our revision.

Okay, if it doesn't create that picture in your mind the addition might be overdone. We will skip it.

§37a:
Posted by Aiwendil:

Well, "somehow" is the crux of the awkwardness, I think. We can either delete it to obtain something like good prose or retain it for the sake of ambiguity and accept that it reads poorly.

I feared it was like this. I don't see that the deletion of "somehow" is a prohibited stylistic change. We are dealing with a note that as it is, as your rightly observed, was never meant to form a part of any narrative. Thus if it would by a change not concealing some of the meaning of the note I would accept the deletion of somehow.
Tolkien surely would not have used the words as they stand now, but it is more than likely that he would have device the way by which the dwarves managed to lure Thingol outside the girdle, if ever he had written the story. But we are not Tolkien and we will not device that way. Thus, as it is, we are left only with the statement that nobody (not even Tolkien, who without any doubt had the greatest knowledge of all about Middle-Earth) did know the "how". I think that we should make that clear, and in my view the least we should do, is stick to that "somehow". If you find that better we could expand it like this:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms.{ and Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Somehow it must be}/No tale tells how they/ contrived it that Thingol {is}was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders{ and is there slain by the Dwarves.}>, RD-SL-22 <TNbut there the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. ...

Concerning Melians departure:
Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end.

RD-EX-60:
I at least feel a strong desire to introduce that "when".

RD-EX-63:
Okay, you took a different view to the sentence. Now at long last, I see your problem. I the problem I have is that with your options the growing cry becomes more strange to me. What if we try to find a word to fit the lacunae? I suggest: "But the Dwarves held on their way, and >RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise {...}enforced by the clash of steel."

§40:
Good arguments. I agree, that in view of them we should skip the Orcs. Thus we will get:

... Naugladur bid gather all things of gold or silver or of precious stones and bear them to Nogrod - ‘and{ whatso remains of goods or folk may the, Orcs keep, or slay, as they desire. Yet} the Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian] Queen of {Artanor}[Doriath] shall fare with me.’

About the names:
Naugladur: That's nice.

Nielthi: Do we need an etymology for each and every name we want to hold?

Bodruith: Agreed he is skipped out of our version.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-51

Findegil wrote:

But the awkwardness of the sentence was, in my view at least, brought about by our deletions. Wouldn't it be possible to change the word order: "Now one there was, Fangluin the aged, and he did{ he} jeer at them mightily on their return, ..."
For me that sounds much more natural.

Are you sure that the awkwardness was introduced by our change? I don't see how "and did he jeer at them mightily on their return" is more awkward than "and did Fangluin jeer at them mightily on their return". But it's a minor point, and I'm certainly willing to go with your suggestion if you are adamant.

RD-SL-20

We ought to try to be clear about this. Why did we delete the element of the treachery? I can think of two possible reasons:

1. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery would not be sufficient to bypass the Girdle.

2. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery is impossibly unlikely.

I had thought that our justification for the change was 2. If this is the case, then nothing has altered the fact that Elvish treachery would overcome the Girdle, and so the hypothetical statement would be fine.

But perhaps it is not so clear that reason 2 was our justification. If 1 is also a concern, then I agree that the line should be dropped.

§37a

I must say again that I don't see the "somehow" as doing any good for us. Your expanded proposal ("No tale tells . . .") is better in that regard. But I wonder whether it's going too far - besides the fact that it alters the text, it invents the fact that no tale tells more of the luring of Thingol outside the Girdle. But surely the full tale of the Necklace of the Woe of Thingol does give a full account.

Okay, so we all agree that she must leave before the dwarves attack. It would be nice to hear if you both do agree with my second version of that story given in post #11 at the end.

I don't see a real problem between §37b and §38, but your proposed changes bring in more detail from TN and thus are good, I think. But there is a grammatical problem with:

<HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Then} When Melian {departs} departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.>

We could perhaps make it:

<HoME11; The Tale of The Years{Then} Thus Melian {departs} departed, and the girdle being removed Doriath {is}was ravaged by the Dwarves.>

RD-EX-63

If I understand what you intend, would perhaps this work:

RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise[,] {...} strengthened by the clash of steel.

I think that "enforced" is not the right word, but I think this may be what you had in mind.

[Findegil]

RD-EX-51:
The Original sentence reads "Yet now did Fangluin jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." and this clearly is less awkward then "... and did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." or not. Our changes were made to in cooperate the descriptive introduction of Fangluin the aged with his action at the return of the smiths. After reading again the original, I think we should use "...and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return, ..." It is even nearer to the original than to leave out the "now". Is that a way we are all happy with?

RD-SL-20:
It took use a long time to workout that difference in the reasons for leaving the treacherous Elves out!
Reason 1 is the only valid point in my view. If treachery would have been sufficient to bypass the Girdle, then I do not see why JRR Tolkien would have felt any need to change the story at all. Treachery of Elves by Elves was one of the things spoken of in the prophecy of the north and Thingol had enmeshed himself and his realm in the doom of the Noldor by taking the Silmaril. Thus I don't think it is in any way impossible for the Elves of Doriath to be treacherous. Thus I still think the line should be dropped.

§37a:
Point taken. “No tale tells …” is to much writing our point of view into the story. On the other hand it is really true: There was never a tale written that did tell this “how”. What about a clearer statement of the Narrator: “In these later days it is not known how …”? But I don’t think that will do. In the end if you are adamant on skipping the “somehow” I can go with that, since the passage will clearly be discussed at length in the Appendix to this chapter. And there we can much clearer say what we could only hint at in the text, that Tolkien never wrote down how he envisaged the luring of the dwarves and possibly never made up his mind about that point.

Concerning Melians departure:
If you agree to it we will take my second proposal.
Then Melian departed -> Thus Melian departed: Agreed.

RD-EX-63:
“enforced” was only the best I could find, which was not good in itself. “strengthened” is okay for me.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Aiwendil]

RD-EX-51

I think that perhaps I misread the original. The deletion of "Yet now" does seem to make it more awkward. We can use " . . . and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return".

RD-SL-20

It seems the point was clear in your mind, then; but it is not so to me. I wonder what Maedhros thinks. In any case, I don't think that the prophecy of the North has such bearing on the Sindar; it foretold treachery among the Noldor, not among all Elves.

§37a

"No tale tells": is it really true? It is externally - that is, no text written by Tolkien gives us the proper tale. But if we make the statement in the text, its purport is internal. That is, it would assert that no tale written in Arda tells how the Dwarves contrived the luring of Thingol. This is not likely to be true, considering the existence of the Atanatarion.

[Findegil]

RD-SL-20:
Yes it would be good to have a third minds input here, I think. But I like to add, that it is the safer way in view of canon to skip hypotetical possibility to ofercome the girdle by treason.

§37a:
I am aware of the problem of internal statment made on an external fact. Therefore my suggestion in the last post. But as said there already, in view of an appendix talking about the external problems we had with the §, I can live with loosing the "somehow". Thus we should take:

§37a (§20) There {they}[the dwarves] surprised Thingol upon {a}the hunt with but small company of arms and {Thingol was slain} <HoME11; The Tale of The Years {Somehow it must be}for they contrived it that Thingol {is} was lured outside or induced to go to war beyond his borders and {is} there {slain by the Dwarves.}> RD-SL-22 <TN the king and his company were all encircled with armed foes. ...

FD-SL-19:
This was the message of the Death of Mîm that did increase the wrath of the Naugrim. This point gnawed at me since we settled our discussion on it with the decision to skip any mention of it. I did recently reread the passage that Aiwendil and Maedhros used against it, and I will give it here to anyone to read:

The Petty-dwarves. See also Note 7. The Eldar did not at first recognize these as Incarnates, for they seldom caught sight of them in clear light. They only became aware of their existence indeed when they attacked the Eldar by stealth at night, or if they caught them alone in wild places. The Eldar therefore thought that they were a kind of cunning two-legged animals living in caves, and they called them Levain tad-dail, or simply Tad-dail, and they hunted them. But after the Eldar had made the acquaintance of the Naugrim, the Tad-dail were recognized as a variety of Dwarves and were left alone. There were then few of them surviving, and they were very wary, and too fearful to attack any Elf, unless their hiding-places were approached too nearly. The Sindar gave them the names Nogotheg 'Dwarflet', or Nogoth niben 'Petty Dwarf'.
The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, who were (it is said) the descendants of Dwarves who had left or been driven our from the Communities, being deformed or undersized, or slothful and rebellious. But they still acknowledged their kinship and resented any injuries done to them. Indeed it was one of their grievances against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there. This grievance was set aside, when treaties were made between the Dwarves and the Sindar, in consideration of the plea that the Petty-dwarves had never declared themselves to the Eldar, nor presented any claims to land or habitations, but had at once attacked the newcomers in darkness and ambush. But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mîm, the only Petty-dwarf who played a memorable part in the Annals of Beleriand.
The Noldor, for use in Quenya, translated these Sindarin names for the Petty-dwarves by Attalyar 'Bipeds', and Pikinaukor or Pitya-naukor.

Noe 7: The Dwarves were in a special position. They claimed to have known Beleriand before even the Eldar first came there; and there do appear to have been small groups dwelling furtively in the highlands west of Sirion from a very early date: they attacked and waylaid the Elves by stealth, and the Elves did not at first recognize them as Incarnates, but thought them to be some kind of cunning animal, and hunted them. By their own account they were fugitives, driven into the wilderness by their own kin further east, and later they were called the Noegyth Nibin or Petty-dwarves, for they had become smaller than the norm of their kind, and filled with hate for all other creatures. When the Elves met the powerful Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost, in the eastern side of the Mountains, they recognized them as Incarnates, for they had skill in many crafts, and learned the Elvish speech readily for purposes of traffic. At first the Elves were in doubt concerning them, believing them to be related to Orcs and creatures of Morgoth; but when they found that, though proud and unfriendly, they could be trusted to keep any treaties that they made, and did not molest those who left them in peace, they traded with them and let them come and go as they would. They no longer classed them as Moerbin, but neither did they ever reckon them as Celbin, calling them the Dornhoth ('the thrawn folk') or the Naugrim ('the stunted people').

The arrgument against the use of the Mîm's death as a further grievence to the dwarves was the passage "The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, ..." But what bothers me now is this passage "But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mîm, ..." The grievance refered to is clearly that between the Great Dwarves and the Sindar and not that of the Petty-Dwarves against the Sindar. Thus what else can be meant by this passage other than that the death of Mîm brought back that grievance only laid at rest and never really healed and thus added to the wrath of the Dwarves of Nogrod against Thingol?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

RD-SL-20

We ought to try to be clear about this. Why did we delete the element of the treachery? I can think of two possible reasons:

1. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery would not be sufficient to bypass the Girdle.

2. In the later legendarium, Elvish treachery is impossibly unlikely.

I had thought that our justification for the change was 2. If this is the case, then nothing has altered the fact that Elvish treachery would overcome the Girdle, and so the hypothetical statement would be fine.

But perhaps it is not so clear that reason 2 was our justification. If 1 is also a concern, then I agree that the line should be dropped.

I think that just to be safe, it would be better to drop the line. It is funny in a way, Aiwendil wants to keep it and Findegil wants to drop it. It is usually the other way around.

I am aware of the problem of internal statment made on an external fact. Therefore my suggestion in the last post. But as said there already, in view of an appendix talking about the external problems we had with the §, I can live with loosing the "somehow".

It seems that in his last post Findegil dropped the "tale" issue. I think that Aiwendil is right in that.

RD-EX-51

I think that perhaps I misread the original. The deletion of "Yet now" does seem to make it more awkward. We can use " . . . and now did he jeer at them mightily on their return".

To be honest, I don't see hte awkwardness of it, but in matters of taste and grammar I defer to Aiwendil.

RD-EX-63

If I understand what you intend, would perhaps this work:

Quote:
RD-EX-63 <TN there was a cry about the doors <editorial addition of the Thousand Caves>, and suddenly it grew to a fierce noise[,] {...} strengthened by the clash of steel.

I think that "enforced" is not the right word, but I think this may be what you had in mind.

Again I agree.

The arrgument against the use of the Mîm's death as a further grievence to the dwarves was the passage "The great Dwarves despised the Petty-dwarves, ..." But what bothers me now is this passage "But the grievance still smouldered, as was later seen in the case of Mîm, ..." The grievance refered to is clearly that between the Great Dwarves and the Sindar and not that of the Petty-Dwarves against the Sindar. Thus what else can be meant by this passage other than that the death of Mîm brought back that grievance only laid at rest and never really healed and thus added to the wrath of the Dwarves of Nogrod against Thingol?

Where exactly did that discussion took place? I do not seem to find it?

[Findegil]

FD-SL-19:
I treid to reread that discussion myself after I did the post, but could find not more in the **Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** than Aiwendils remark in post #54

Would the news of Mim's death really have point for the Dwarves of Nogrod, considering the later conception of the Petty Dwarves?

and my replay in post #56

About the death of Mîm: I think it would have some point for the Dwarves of Nogrod. Considering that the killing of the Pety-Dwarves by the Sindar was a grive just laid to sleep between the Sindar and the Dwarves as is told in Quendi and Eldar. Thus we have Thingols people hunt the Petty dwarves down to a few, and the Húrin killed the last and Thingol as the one who gets the advantage of all that. But it is a minor point and I could go without it.

There after the discussion died down on that point, and when I prepared the text of the expanded version I only scaned through the thread to find the last remark about every point to become that text in agrement with what we discussed. What I wrote in post #17 of this thread was then based on my blured memory.
Thus the discussion is a bit more open than I thought: Aiwendil put in some doubts, that I now try to dispel. If I succed with that I would bring in the following changes:

§31 (§16) Yet after long pondering he saw not how he might achieve his purpose save by force, and there was little hope therein, both by reason of the great strength of numbers of the Elves of {Artanor}[Doriath] in those days, and of the woven magic of {Gwenniel}[Melian] that guarded all those regions, so that men of hostile heart were lost and came not to those woods; nor indeed could any such come thither RD-SL-20{ unaided by treachery from within}.

§32 (§16.5) RD-SL-19<TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs}[Belegost], {a kindred}[an other realm] of the Dwarves{ that dwelt in other realms}. Now these brought tidings of the death of Mîm the fatherless at the hand of {Úrin}[Húrin] and the rape of {Glorund's}[Glaurung’s] gold, which tale had but new come to {Bodruith's}[their] ears. Now hitherto the Dwarves knew not the full tale concerning that hoard, nor more than RD-EX-53.2 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, and {Úrin}[Húrin] had not spoken the full count thereof ere he departed. Hearing therefore these tidings new wrath was added to their lust and a clamour arose among them, and RD-EX-53.5<Q&E {Indeed}indeed it was one of their grievances <editorial addition of old> against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there.><editorial addition Therefore> Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged - ‘and, more,’ said he, ‘me seems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves.’>

§33 (§17) {Therefore gathering new forces in Nogrod RD-SL-18{and in Belegost} they returned at length, RD-SL-20c {and aided by the treachery of certain Elves on whom the lust of the accursed treasure had fallen} they RD-SL-21a{passed into Doriath secretly.}} RD-EX-54 <TN This then was the design; and by his deeds have the Dwarves been severed in feud for ever since those days with the Elves, and drawn more nigh in friendship to the {kin}[following] of {Melko}[Morgoth]. Secretly he let send {to the Indrafangs}[the messengers back] RD-SL-18 asking<Sil77 aid from Belegost, but it was denied {them}him, and the Dwarves of Belegost sought to dissuade them from their purpose>, because they <Unfinished Tales; Galadriel and Celeborn were filled with dismay at the calamity and fear for its outcome>{ that they} RD-EX-55 . <editorial addition But the Dwarves of Nogrod>{ prepare}prepared their host against a day that {he}[Naugladur] would name, whenso the time should be ripe; and a hidden forging of bitter steel then was in [Nogrod.]{Belegost the dwelling of the Indrafangs.}>

Do I miss some point or is this new discussion of RD-SL-19 the last open point in this section?

Respectfully
Findegil

[Maédhros]

I'm ok with the new additions but I would use instead:

§32 (§16.5) RD-SL-19<TN Now even as those aged ones sat in their dark halls and gnawed their beards, behold a sound of horns, and messengers were come from {Bodruith of the Indrafangs, a kindred realm of the Dwarves that dwelt in other realms} [Belegost]. Now these brought tidings of the death of Mîm the fatherless at the hand of {Úrin}[Húrin] and the rape of {Glorund's}[Glaurung’s] gold, which tale had but new come to {Bodruith's}[their] ears. Now hitherto the Dwarves knew not the full tale concerning that hoard, nor more than RD-EX-53.2 {Ufedhin}[the Elves] might tell hearing the speech in {Tinwelint}[Thingol]'s halls, and {Úrin}[Húrin] had not spoken the full count thereof ere he departed. Hearing therefore these tidings new wrath was added to their lust and a clamour arose among them, and RD-EX-53.5<Q&E {Indeed}indeed it was one of their grievances <editorial addition of old> against the Eldar that they had hunted and slain their lesser kin, who had settled in Beleriand before the Elves came there.><editorial addition Therefore> Naugladur vowed to rest not ere Mîm was thrice avenged - ‘and, more,’ said he, ‘me seems the gold belongs of right to the people of the Dwarves.’>

To me this sounds better, but I wonder what Aiwendil would say about it. I think that messengers from Belegost imply that they were dwarves from there.
I liked the addition from Unfinished Tales.

Do I miss some point or is this new discussion of RD-SL-19 the last open point in this section?

I think that is it.

[Aiwendil]

RD-SL-20: If there is any doubt, then you are right, it's safer to drop it.

RD-SL-19: I think that Findegil is right; my reservation about the news of Mim's death was an overreaction.

[Findegil]

Then this section is done and we can start with last section of chapter.
I will start that with some further changes that came lately to my attention.

Respectfully
Findegil

[emrys]

I know that the discussion about this topic finished a long time ago, but I've started to post here because I am myself trying to reconstruct the structure of a "new" fall of Doriath.

So far I've managed to collect the narrative from the old tale and I'm processing it with the following operations:

- Update of Names
- Division in Chapters
- Deletion of Major Inconsistencies
- Integration with some parts of the Q30

I would be very glad to see your complete version before trying to post some comments on that topic.

If that cannot be done...I'll try to discuss them without comparing our versions (if that doesn't represent a problem for you)

Thanks,

Emrys

[Findegil]

Hi Emrys,

have you read your Private Message? If not please do so. Seeing your interest my offer does include FoD from now on.

We are of course interested to compare your ideas with our work and it would be much easier for us if you could make the comparision.

Respectfully
Findegil

[emrys]

Probably you have already discussed all this matters for long, but, since I've started to make my own RoD before the discovery of your forum, I'll try to express my comments on this matter here.

Having partly read your version I'll start with some general comment on it.

I don't know if this is in line with the philosophy of this project but I would have tried to preserve as much Tolkien text as possible so some questions:

1) Why Eliminating Ufedhin while reteaning the treacherous elves? To me the deletion of this character from the Quenta is just a matter of compression I would have retained him.

2) Why using parts of Sil77 Fall of Doriath since it does not contain any original tolkien text?

As we know, Tolkien tried to replace the original tale of the Fall of Doriath many times but never found a solution to the problem that the girdle of Melian can't be passed by enemies. Nonetheless this tale represent the only complete text and it doesn't contraddict the latest scripts of Tolkien (TY) in any way with the exception of some minor changes (name changes, replacement of Huan with Melian, replacement of Orcs and Belegost Dwarves with Nogrod Dwarves).
The rest of the story thus can be taken with almost no exception and with minor integrations from other texts.

This is my general point of view.

Maybe if you like in the following days I'll try to post puntual comments...

- Emrys -

[Aiwendil]

Regarding your first point: perhaps you have misunderstood something. In our version, both Ufedhin and the treacherous Elves are out. As far as I'm concerned there are two main reasons for this:

1. The absence of this element in all subsequent writings (most notably the Quenta).

2. The fact that in TY Tolkien seems to see the penetration of the Girdle by the Dwarves as an unsolved problem - and that the solution he eventually projected (that Thingol is induced to go to war beyond the borders and is there slain) was entirely different from the earlier version.

Now, one could argue that the first point is due to compression (though the absence of such a notable makes that view quite disputable). But it seems to me that in any case, the second point is still forcing.

About your second point: I believe (I may be recalling incorrectly) that we ended up using very little text from the '77 Silmarillion in our version. In any case, the major plot elements invented by Christopher Tolkien for that version were all rejected.

If you'd like to address some of the specific instances where we use the '77 (and perhaps suggest alternatives), your thoughts would of course be welcome.

[emrys]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

The fact that in TY Tolkien seems to see the penetration of the Girdle by the Dwarves as an unsolved problem - and that the solution he eventually projected (that Thingol is induced to go to war beyond the borders and is there slain) was entirely different from the earlier version.

I understan your point of view here, but I don't think your solution to be so different from the original one in the lost tale.

Let me try to summerize

Lost Tales

Thingol (counseled by Ufedhin) summon the dwarves
Thingol quarrel with the dwarves
The Dwarves go to war
(and aided by Treacerous elves) kill Thingol in the woods
The Dwarves aided by the same elves invade Doriath
Melian (older version) escape to Beren


Your Version

Thingol Summons the dwarves
Thingol quarrel with the dwarves
The dwarves go to war
the find thingol in the woods and kill him
Melian became mad and the girdle is removed

Now this two version to me seem to be very close (correct me if I'm wrong) but in the new version:
Ufedhin is removed (Tolkien don't mention him but I think that by removing him a very nice fragment will be lost)
The Treacherous elves are removed (but the fact that Tolkien didn't like this solution doesn't mean that he would have finally abandoned it)
Melian go away before all the realm his lost (which is not what I expect her to do)


That said I would have taken in the final story both Ufedhin and the treacherous elves for these main reasons:

1) I read the original story after the necessary modifications (Update of Names, Remove of Huan and Dwarves of Belegost, etc?) and I found that it doesn't contraddict Tolkien final thoughts in many parts and also it is a very nice story

2) Retaining that version imply very few modifications on the original tolkien text.

Next time If you think the discussion to be useful I'll try to post puntual comments starting from WoH...

A question: I have made a text without your standard codifications (because I started before discovering this site); can I quote some rows of text without this coding or do you prefer I enter this references in the text before posting?

Thanks for your reply

Emrys

[Findegil]

Please go ahead and post your specific critics. I don't mind to find your version without the markers for edited parts we used, but it would be nice if you could at least refer to them in the comments you make to the passages you give. That would make it make much easier for us to identify the spots we are talking about.

The thread 2**Ruin of Doriath - Pre-Revision speculation/proposal thread** holds most of the discussion to the 2 points you brought up.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Tar-Telperien]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

Nielthi: I'm not sure what the etymology of this would be, but at least there are no phonological problems that I'm aware of. It can stand.

This name does not "fit" into later Sindarin for me, and I managed to find out why: after scrolling through my Dragon Flame Sindarin dictionary, I discovered that the only multisyllabic Sindarin words ending in -i are those which have the adjectival ending -ui or verb stems that have been conjugated into the infinitive (e.g. giri 'to shudder'). Otherwise, -i does not appear at all. The consonant cluster -lth- is pretty rare too, although it does occur in a couple verb stems.

Even so, the problem of final -i in mature Sindarin is enough to cause the name to be entirely dropped in my opinion, especially in the case of such a minor character whose name is only used a couple times. I very much doubt that Nielthi's name was intended to be the infinitive form of a verb *nielth-, which is the only thing it could be in Sindarin as later envisioned by Tolkien.

An adjective form Nielthui might work, but this would be rather pointless: the name, while working with the morphophonology of later Sindarin, would be changed unnecessarily from the original, and its meaning wouldn't be at all clear. But if you want to retain it, I believe that is the only way it could be done. Again, better to just eliminate it altogether.

[Findegil]

What you suggests, Tar-Telperien, is:

§311 (§37b) RD-EX-60 Now {is}when the king was far in the woods with all his company, and the horns {grow}grew faint in the deep forest, but {Gwendelin}[Melian] {sits}sat in her bower and foreboding {is}was in her heart and eyes. Then said an Elfmaid{, Nielthi}: ‘Wherefore, O Lady, art thou sorrowful at the hightide of the king?’ And {Gwendelin}[Melian] said: ‘Evil seeks our land, and my heart misgives me that my days in {Artanor}[Doriath] are speeding to their end, yet if I should lose {Tinwelint}[Thingol] then would I wish never to have wandered forth from Valinor.’ But {Nielthi}the Elfmaid said: ‘Nay, O Lady {Gwendelin}[Melian], hast thou not woven great magic all about us, so that we fear not?’ ...

Respectfuly
Findegil

[Tar-Telperien]

Yes, I do suggest that. It works well enough, better than an obsolete Sindarin name.

[Aiwendil]

I also can find no Sindarin names ending in -i (after an admittedly quick search). I suppose there's sufficient doubt about the name, then, that it should be excised.

[Findegil]

Okay, this point is done.

Thanks for the good catch Tar-Telperien!

Respectfully
Findegil