Dwarves in Heaven? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Gilbo · 10-27-2003, 04:13 PM

I hope that this isn't too newbie of a question for this board. Here goes.
On another site, there is a discussion concerning Gimli accompanying Legolas to the Undying Lands. I can't think of anything that forbids them from going. There was no prohibition from the Valar, as there was for the Noldor. No prohibitions not to seek the Lands, as there was for the Numenoreans. I don't believe that the thought had entered in to the mind of a Dwarf before Gimli met Galadriel. I don't think that I know what happens to Dwarves that cease to be. I have heard rumors of re-incarnation since there are repeating Durins in history, but nothing solid.
Inform me, Ye Loremasters! what happens to Aule's children when life leaves them and Why couldn't Gimli go to the Undying Lands? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

Legolas · 10-27-2003, 04:57 PM

They were regularly prohibited because they were mortal, just like Men. The "repeating" Durins are different persons - new kings named after famous kinds of old. Dwarves believe that, after death, they are sent to the Hall of Mandos where they have their own space set aside. There they will wait for the destruction of Arda at which point they will join with their maker, Aule, in the remaking of the world.

[ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Inziladun · 10-27-2003, 09:16 PM

Actually the Dwarves believed each successive Durin to indeed be 'the Deathless that returned'. Whether or not that was true is totally unknown.
Mortals were indeed banned from the Undying Lands. Gimli was allowed to go over Sea because of his love for Galadriel. She was of the great among the Eldar and was apparently able to obtain permission for Gimli to do this. It was a unique occurance though. Dwarves and Elves continued to dwindle in Middle Earth after the Dominion of Men began and I doubt there would have been another opportunity for other Dwarves to go even if some were special friends of the Elves.

Mahal · 11-05-2003, 09:20 AM

Well we don't know for sure(Tolkien never said or wrote that) but in the Silmarillion it says that Aulë has a special place in the halls of Mandos for the dwarves. So maybe there was only one Durin
[img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: Mahal ]

ArathorofBarahir · 11-08-2003, 11:32 AM

Since Dwarves are mortal, then I think they share the same fate as Men. However I think they believe they will go to heaven when the world ends.

Amarie of the Vanyar · 11-08-2003, 12:08 PM

As Mahal has said, it is believed that there is a special place in the Halls of Mandos to which Dwarves go when they die. And it is also believed that, when the world ends, after the Dagor Dagorath, Dwarves will help Aulë to build Arda Remade, which will be a world without the evil of Morgoth.

Finwe · 11-08-2003, 02:36 PM

There are exceptions to every rule, and Gimli being allowed to go to Valinor was one of those exceptions. But then again, what he did wasn't completely ordinary. He and Legolas healed the ages-long rift between the Dwarves and the Elves, not a very easy thing to do, might I add. They also sacrificed a lot to help the Ringbearer succeed, and they were rewarded for that.

Olorin_TLA · 11-08-2003, 04:27 PM

For the record, mortals weren't banned from Valinor because they were evil, or the Valar didn't like them - they weren't meant to go there simply because mortals die, whereas Valinor was the Undying Lands - at first, it would have been paradise (ie: for the duration Frodo etc stay there) but eventually life, unable to die or jealous of the undying, would become unbearable for mortals.

Finwe · 11-08-2003, 05:16 PM

Not only that. It isn't the land that makes people immortal and holy, it is the immortal people who make the land holy. It wouldn't have been Aman if the Elves and the Valar didn't live there. That was the misconception that the Numenoreans also had. They thought living in Aman would give them immortality, but in fact, it didn't confer immortality. The Elves and Valar were already immortal.

GreatWarg · 11-08-2003, 05:51 PM

Well, actually, Finwe, there is also an exception to your words. Isn't it widely believed that Tuor was granted immortality and still lives in the Undying Lands, the only Man ever given that curse/gift?

But as was said before, Gimli was a special Dwarf and an exception. I believe he still passed away, though.

Exceptions are fun.

Finwe · 11-08-2003, 06:28 PM

Tuor is another exception. And not to be rude or anything, but you just proved yourself wrong. You said that Tuor was made immortal, which is precisely what happened. Unless people are made immortal, they retain their normal, mortal lifespans in Aman.

Eowyn:Lady of Rohan · 11-08-2003, 06:36 PM

I think Dwarves have their own place to go. However, dwarves are men,(except they're shorter and dwell in the mountains). Who knows. I have friends that are "dwarves", but they're still considered human or men as you will. Good question.

GreatWarg · 11-08-2003, 06:44 PM

I am rather confused... What did I say that contradicted myself, Finwe?

Perhaps my wording was wrong. I meant to say that Gimli did die. Or is that not it?

Eowyn, I don't rightly agree with your statement that 'Dwarves are Men.' Their very nature is different, and especially because they were not created by Eru. Aulë had no notion of what the Children of Eru would be like, so he made the Dwarves in a way so that they could stand fast against the dark, and had the same love of smithing and creating things with their hands that he did. I think Eru had a different idea for Men.

Finwe · 11-08-2003, 10:26 PM

It might have been your wording that slightly misled me. But, thankfully, we've had that little problem taken care of.

I agree with you. Dwarves may resemble Men, but they are most definitely not Men.

lore_master · 11-10-2003, 09:33 PM

right, men were made by Eru, while Dwarves were made by Aule and were not orriginally ment to be.

another question, if eru is supposed to be "all-knowing" like the Christian and Jewish religions beleive there god is, then would'nt he already know that Aule was going to make Dwarves?

if he didnt want them to be then why didnt Eru stop Aule or put the thought out of his head before they were made?

Estelyn Telcontar · 11-11-2003, 07:18 AM

Free will.

But that's a completely different discussion, one which we have had on various threads. If anyone is interested and hasn't read those yet, just use the search to find threads listed under "free will".

Finwe · 11-11-2003, 08:26 PM

Eru must have known that the Dwarves had to be in Middle-earth/Beleriand for Morgoth to be overthrown. Without them, Morgoth, and eventually Sauron, wouldn't have been defeated, and life would have been a LOT worse. Imagine life in Middle-earth, during the War of the Ring, without Gimli! We just need that little guy! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Groin Redbeard · 12-10-2007, 07:05 PM

Ya, that's right what do happen to Dwarves when they die, where do they go? Let's not even stop at Dwarves, what happens to Hobbits, Men, or Ents when they die? Do they go to a lesser version of Valinor?

Is there anybody smart out there who knows the answer?

McCaber · 12-10-2007, 10:16 PM

Men go to the Halls of Mandos for a time, then to their ultimate fate. Only Eru Iluvatar knows what that is. Dwarves believe that they are sent to a special place within Mandos to help Aule rebuild the world. I would guess that Hobbits share the doom of men, but I'm not sure about Ents.

Nazgûl-king · 12-11-2007, 12:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by McCaber

Men go to the Halls of Mandos for a time, then to their ultimate fate. Only Eru Iluvatar knows what that is. Dwarves believe that they are sent to a special place within Mandos to help Aule rebuild the world. I would guess that Hobbits share the doom of men, but I'm not sure about Ents.

I agree with McCaber that the Hobbits probably share the fate of Men, and as for Ents perhaps they turn into regular trees. The Dwarves, as has been said above, believe that they have a special place in the Halls of Mandos, and are to help Aulë rebuild the world.

Groin Redbeard · 12-11-2007, 09:32 AM

Sounds good, thanks for answering smart people.

Eönwë · 12-11-2007, 10:09 AM

Hobbits are men, not just in sharing the same fate. They are part of the druedain, or pukel-men, like the ones that save the rohirrim i the return of the king (book). So they would go to Mandos, and then to Eru like the redt of men, and like the rest of Men (according to the lost tales) they would sing the new world (or Arda renewed as some here have called it) into being along with the Valar.

Also Eru did know that dwarves would be made. He allowed him to make them though not only because of free will, but because, as he puts it, every act done in or connected to middle earth "redounds in my [and its] glory".

I don't know if Ents do become trees actually, though, because Treebeard (the first and most faithful Ent) doesn't like the Huorns (which were once Ents), which shows that even the old Ents can stay Entish. I think that they just continue to live and be Ents until "the changing of the world" or even Dagor Dagorath.

10-27-2003, 04:13 PM	#1
Gilbo Animated Skeleton Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: maryland Posts: 34	Dwarves in Heaven? I hope that this isn't too newbie of a question for this board. Here goes. On another site, there is a discussion concerning Gimli accompanying Legolas to the Undying Lands. I can't think of anything that forbids them from going. There was no prohibition from the Valar, as there was for the Noldor. No prohibitions not to seek the Lands, as there was for the Numenoreans. I don't believe that the thought had entered in to the mind of a Dwarf before Gimli met Galadriel. I don't think that I know what happens to Dwarves that cease to be. I have heard rumors of re-incarnation since there are repeating Durins in history, but nothing solid. Inform me, Ye Loremasters! what happens to Aule's children when life leaves them and Why couldn't Gimli go to the Undying Lands? [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

10-27-2003, 04:57 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	They were regularly prohibited because they were mortal, just like Men. The "repeating" Durins are different persons - new kings named after famous kinds of old. Dwarves believe that, after death, they are sent to the Hall of Mandos where they have their own space set aside. There they will wait for the destruction of Arda at which point they will join with their maker, Aule, in the remaking of the world. [ October 27, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

10-27-2003, 09:16 PM	#3
Inziladun Gruesome Spectre Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Heaven's doorstep Posts: 8,037	Actually the Dwarves believed each successive Durin to indeed be 'the Deathless that returned'. Whether or not that was true is totally unknown. Mortals were indeed banned from the Undying Lands. Gimli was allowed to go over Sea because of his love for Galadriel. She was of the great among the Eldar and was apparently able to obtain permission for Gimli to do this. It was a unique occurance though. Dwarves and Elves continued to dwindle in Middle Earth after the Dominion of Men began and I doubt there would have been another opportunity for other Dwarves to go even if some were special friends of the Elves. __________________ Music alone proves the existence of God.

11-05-2003, 09:20 AM	#4
Mahal Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2003 Location: Paradox Realm Posts: 66	Well we don't know for sure(Tolkien never said or wrote that) but in the Silmarillion it says that Aulë has a special place in the halls of Mandos for the dwarves. So maybe there was only one Durin [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ November 05, 2003: Message edited by: Mahal ] __________________ *A new technology does not add or substract something. It changes everything.*

11-08-2003, 11:32 AM	#5
ArathorofBarahir Wight Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Crickhallow Posts: 247	Since Dwarves are mortal, then I think they share the same fate as Men. However I think they believe they will go to heaven when the world ends. __________________ King of the Dead: The dead do not suffer the living to pass. Aragorn: You will suffer me.

11-08-2003, 12:08 PM	#6
Amarie of the Vanyar Wight Join Date: May 2003 Location: Valinor Posts: 215	As Mahal has said, it is believed that there is a special place in the Halls of Mandos to which Dwarves go when they die. And it is also believed that, when the world ends, after the Dagor Dagorath, Dwarves will help Aulë to build Arda Remade, which will be a world without the evil of Morgoth. __________________ But it is said that not until that hour had such cold thoughts ruled Finrod; for indeed she whom he had loved was Amarië of the Vanyar, and she went not with him into exile.

11-08-2003, 02:36 PM	#7
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	There are exceptions to every rule, and Gimli being allowed to go to Valinor was one of those exceptions. But then again, what he did wasn't completely ordinary. He and Legolas healed the ages-long rift between the Dwarves and the Elves, not a very easy thing to do, might I add. They also sacrificed a lot to help the Ringbearer succeed, and they were rewarded for that. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-08-2003, 04:27 PM	#8
Olorin_TLA Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Gardens of Lórien, Valinor. Posts: 420	For the record, mortals weren't banned from Valinor because they were evil, or the Valar didn't like them - they weren't meant to go there simply because mortals die, whereas Valinor was the Undying Lands - at first, it would have been paradise (ie: for the duration Frodo etc stay there) but eventually life, unable to die or jealous of the undying, would become unbearable for mortals. __________________ "For I am Olórin! And Olórin means me!" ELENDIL! - Join "Forth Tolkiengas!"

11-08-2003, 05:16 PM	#9
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Not only that. It isn't the land that makes people immortal and holy, it is the immortal people who make the land holy. It wouldn't have been Aman if the Elves and the Valar didn't live there. That was the misconception that the Numenoreans also had. They thought living in Aman would give them immortality, but in fact, it didn't confer immortality. The Elves and Valar were already immortal. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-08-2003, 05:51 PM	#10
GreatWarg Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: East of the Misty Mountains Posts: 339	Well, actually, Finwe, there is also an exception to your words. Isn't it widely believed that Tuor was granted immortality and still lives in the Undying Lands, the only Man ever given that curse/gift? But as was said before, Gimli was a special Dwarf and an exception. I believe he still passed away, though. Exceptions are fun. __________________ "What shall we do, what shall we do!" he cried. "Escaping goblins to be caught be wolves!"

11-08-2003, 06:28 PM	#11
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Tuor is another exception. And not to be rude or anything, but you just proved yourself wrong. You said that Tuor was made immortal, which is precisely what happened. Unless people are made immortal, they retain their normal, mortal lifespans in Aman. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-08-2003, 06:36 PM	#12
Eowyn:Lady of Rohan Pile O'Bones Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Portland,Oregon USA Posts: 22	I think Dwarves have their own place to go. However, dwarves are men,(except they're shorter and dwell in the mountains). Who knows. I have friends that are "dwarves", but they're still considered human or men as you will. Good question. __________________ Erin Elisabeth Jee Hyun Jung Ellis

11-08-2003, 06:44 PM	#13
GreatWarg Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: East of the Misty Mountains Posts: 339	I am rather confused... What did I say that contradicted myself, Finwe? Perhaps my wording was wrong. I meant to say that Gimli did die. Or is that not it? Eowyn, I don't rightly agree with your statement that 'Dwarves are Men.' Their very nature is different, and especially because they were not created by Eru. Aulë had no notion of what the Children of Eru would be like, so he made the Dwarves in a way so that they could stand fast against the dark, and had the same love of smithing and creating things with their hands that he did. I think Eru had a different idea for Men. __________________ "What shall we do, what shall we do!" he cried. "Escaping goblins to be caught be wolves!"

11-08-2003, 10:26 PM	#14
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	It might have been your wording that slightly misled me. But, thankfully, we've had that little problem taken care of. I agree with you. Dwarves may resemble Men, but they are most definitely not Men. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

11-10-2003, 09:33 PM	#15
lore_master Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Valhalla Posts: 116	right, men were made by Eru, while Dwarves were made by Aule and were not orriginally ment to be. another question, if eru is supposed to be "all-knowing" like the Christian and Jewish religions beleive there god is, then would'nt he already know that Aule was going to make Dwarves? if he didnt want them to be then why didnt Eru stop Aule or put the thought out of his head before they were made? __________________ As you go the way of life, you will see a great chasm. Jump. It is not as wide as you think

11-11-2003, 07:18 AM	#16
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Free will. But that's a completely different discussion, one which we have had on various threads. If anyone is interested and hasn't read those yet, just use the search to find threads listed under "free will". __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

11-11-2003, 08:26 PM	#17
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Eru must have known that the Dwarves had to be in Middle-earth/Beleriand for Morgoth to be overthrown. Without them, Morgoth, and eventually Sauron, wouldn't have been defeated, and life would have been a LOT worse. Imagine life in Middle-earth, during the War of the Ring, without Gimli! We just need that little guy! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

12-10-2007, 07:05 PM	#18
Groin Redbeard Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope! Posts: 1,635	This has always puzzled me since I've read the books Ya, that's right what do happen to Dwarves when they die, where do they go? Let's not even stop at Dwarves, what happens to Hobbits, Men, or Ents when they die? Do they go to a lesser version of Valinor? Is there anybody smart out there who knows the answer? __________________ I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

12-10-2007, 10:16 PM	#19
McCaber Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Skyrim, again. Posts: 820	Men go to the Halls of Mandos for a time, then to their ultimate fate. Only Eru Iluvatar knows what that is. Dwarves believe that they are sent to a special place within Mandos to help Aule rebuild the world. I would guess that Hobbits share the doom of men, but I'm not sure about Ents.

12-11-2007, 09:32 AM	#21
Groin Redbeard Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Facing the world's troubles with Christ's hope! Posts: 1,635	Sounds good, thanks for answering smart people. __________________ I heard the bells on Christmas Day. Their old, familiar carols play. And wild and sweet the words repeatof peace on earth, good-will to men! ~Henry Wadsworth Longfellow

12-11-2007, 10:09 AM	#22
Eönwë Flame Imperishable Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Right here Posts: 3,928	Hobbits are men, not just in sharing the same fate. They are part of the druedain, or pukel-men, like the ones that save the rohirrim i the return of the king (book). So they would go to Mandos, and then to Eru like the redt of men, and like the rest of Men (according to the lost tales) they would sing the new world (or Arda renewed as some here have called it) into being along with the Valar. Also Eru did know that dwarves would be made. He allowed him to make them though not only because of free will, but because, as he puts it, every act done in or connected to middle earth "redounds in my [and its] glory". I don't know if Ents do become trees actually, though, because Treebeard (the first and most faithful Ent) doesn't like the Huorns (which were once Ents), which shows that even the old Ents can stay Entish. I think that they just continue to live and be Ents until "the changing of the world" or even Dagor Dagorath. __________________ Welcome to the Barrow Do-owns Forum / Such a lovely place Last edited by Eönwë; 12-11-2007 at 10:14 AM.