Elven Children

[Valier]

While I was reading Unfinished tales something caught my eye....

Turin to Sador-- "Was Lalaith indeed like an elf-child, as my father said? And what did he mean when he said that she was briefer?" "Very like' said Sador. "For in their first youth the children of Men and Elves seem close akin. But the children of Men grow more swiftly, and their youth passes soon, such is our fate."

I was wondering about Elf children....How long would it take to grow to adult stature? And what would they be like? would they have all the same teenage problems as Men do? What would the Elf-children learn and do each day? I can find little more info on Elven children and want to know if anyone else knew more.

[Mithalwen]

Morgoth's ring and the laws and customs of the Eldar therein has the info you require.

Basically an elf takes at leat 50 and up to 100 years to be fully grown.

At first they develop quicker than mortals, able to walk talk and dance by the end of their first year but then linger in the "first spring of childhood". Roughly speaking it work out that an human child will have the physical development of an elf child two and a half times older.
They need little teaching or governance and I will look up the rest if someone doesn't beat me to it!!!

[Raynor]

They need little teaching or governance and I will look up the rest if someone doesn't beat me to it!!!

We've decided to let this one _slide_.
[/jk][/spam]

[Folwren]

Where in Morgoth's Ring can this be found?

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Folwren

Where in Morgoth's Ring can this be found?

Now, now Folwren there is no need to swear...

....
....

ohhh so Morgoth's Ring is one of the books in HoME.... anyway.

I think this thread raises another question. If an elf takes 50 years to be fully grown, how long does s/he take to mature? would a 45 year old elf be mature like a grown up man or would he behave like a 45 year old teenager?

[Raynor]

It is mostly found in the Later Quenta Silmarillion:

Originally Posted by AElfwine's Preamble, Of the laws and customs among the eldar pertaining to marriage and other matters related thereto: together with the statute of Finwe and Miriel and the debate of the Valar at its making.

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly. They learned to speak before they were one year old; and in the same time they learned to walk and to dance, for their wills came soon to the mastery of their bodies. Nonetheless there was less difference between the two Kindreds, Elves and Men, in early youth; and a man who watched elf-children at play might well have believed that they were the children of Men, of some fair and happy people.
...
Children of Men might reach their full height while Eldar of the same age were still in body like to mortals of no more than seven years. Not until the fiftieth year did the Eldar attain the stature and shape in which their lives would afterwards endure, and for some a hundred years would pass before they were full-grown.

[Farael]

Originally Posted by Raynor

The Eldar grew in bodily form slower than Men, but in mind more swiftly.

That is really interesting. I wish Tolkien had spent some time writing a few Eldar children into LoTR, perhaps in Lorien and Rivendell. An elf with the body of a teen and the insight of an old man would have, to me, really highlighted that "sadness" that all elves had deep inside them.

[Valier]

I agree Farael, I wish Tolkien would have included an Elven child somewhere. Hmmmmm that could make a very interesting and fun RPG......

Thanks everyone on your input, it was exactly what I was curious about. Feel free though if anyone else knows more, please share!!

[Valier]

I also found this....

There fell Celegorm by Dior's hand, and there fell Curufin, and dark Caranthir; but Dior was slain also, and Nimloth his wife, and the cruel servants of Celegorm seized his young sons and left them to starve in the forest. Of this Maedhros indeed repented, and sought for them long in the woods of Doriath; but his search was unavailing, and of the fate of Elured and Elurin no tale tells.

How sad. I found only this about any Elven children granted they are not full elves, only part. To bad they never made a story about what happened to them.

[Mithalwen]

I think by the time of the LOTR there would have probably been no elven children in Rivendell. More likely in the silvan realms of Lorien and Mirkwood. The elves were fading, and as the burden of their years lay heavier on them they would have been unlikely to have inflicted it on others. It is likely that Arwen was one of the last elves born at RIvendell - hence the name Evenstar.

[Valier]

just thought I would refresh this thread

[William Cloud Hicklin]

An elf with the body of a teen and the insight of an old man would have, to me, really highlighted that "sadness" that all elves had deep inside them.

What about Nellas, the 'witness' in the Narn/CoH?

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

What about Nellas, the 'witness' in the Narn/CoH?

I think she was just a 'simple' soul.

[Galin]

Laws and Customs is one source, yes, but another text from Morgoth's Ring reads:

'On earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change...' Aman, Myths Transformed

And also ('they' are the Númenóreans):

'Thus (as the Eldar) they grew at much the same rate as other Men, but when they had achieved 'full growth' then they aged, or 'wore out', very much more slowly.' Note 1, The Line of Elros, Unfinished Tales

Hmmm.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Galin

'On earth while an Elf-child did but grow to be a man or a woman, in some 3000 years, forests would rise and fall, and all the face of the land would change...' Aman, Myths Transformed

Perhaps the correct meaning of the phrase is that it compares the rate of growth of things in Middle Earth and the growth of Eldar in Aman. Anyway, if we are to compare Myths Transformed and Tolkien's other writings, we should have in mind that at least part of the MT texts constitue what Chris called "a fearful weapon against [Tolkien's] own creation".

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Perhaps the correct meaning of the phrase is that it compares the rate of growth of things in Middle Earth and the growth of Eldar in Aman.

Hmmm, but preceding this passage it was said the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth. And following it, it is noted (Aman and Mortal Men) that the Valar could not alter the speed of their growth.

The source of Joy in Aman for Elves was comparative: the Eldar grew at the same rate but 3000 years of change about them in Aman was much less than in Middle-earth; in Middle-earth '... all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to die or pass away.'

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Galin

Hmmm, but preceding this passage it was said the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.

True, but the catch part seems to be "beginning upon Middle-earth", which may refer to a time when the race of the elves was less affected by the marring of Melkor and developed more naturally.

And following it, it is noted (Aman and Mortal Men) that the Valar could not alter the speed of their growth.

Agreed, but the changing factor for the elves is not Aman, but the marring of M-E, which affected their development, while in Aman such change was all but eliminated. Thus, the elves developed on Aman as they would have on Arda Unmarred.

The source of Joy in Aman for Elves was comparative: the Eldar grew at the same rate but 3000 years of change about them in Aman was much less than in Middle-earth; in Middle-earth '... all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to die or pass away.'

Hm, I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that the marring did not affect their development? The first counter-argument that comes to mind is Finrod's words about the exiled elves who feel the effect of Middle Earth upon themselves.

Then again, this may all be in vain - MT may be an out-standing text in this matter too, with little if any potential to be reconciled.

[Galin]

'Hmmm, but preceding this passage it was said the Eldar 'aged' at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.' Raynor replied: True, but the catch part seems to be "beginning upon Middle-earth", which may refer to a time when the race of the elves was less affected by the marring of Melkor and developed more naturally.

Good point. Add Finrod's statement especially and I must agree with this suggestion.

'And following it, it is noted (Aman and Mortal Men) that the Valar could not alter the speed of their growth.' Raynor replied: Agreed, but the changing factor for the elves is not Aman, but the marring of M-E, which affected their development, while in Aman such change was all but eliminated. Thus, the elves developed on Aman as they would have on Arda Unmarred.

And after rereading the context more fully it seems to mean the Eldar remained 'unchanged' with respect to the ideal of Arda Unmarred in any case.

'The source of Joy in Aman for Elves was comparative: the Eldar grew at the same rate but 3000 years of change about them in Aman was much less than in Middle-earth; in Middle-earth '... all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to die or pass away.' Raynor replied: Hm, I am not sure what you mean. Do you imply that the marring did not affect their development? The first counter-argument that comes to mind is Finrod's words about the exiled elves who feel the effect of Middle Earth upon themselves.

I was including (considering the topic of the thread) the notion of the Eldar growing to maturity in 3000 years even in Middle-earth. My idea (though I am now reconsidering it in light of this exchange) is that the Marring did not necessarily affect the phase of maturation to adult. I'm not offering the following as correct necessarily, but rather simply how it shaped my possibly flawed idea.

If I have guessed the passage you mean, the context of Finrod's words is not about Elf-children (not that you said it was) but rather the question of longevity inspired him here, and his remark that 'the change of their Bodies is swifter than in the beginning' leads him to guess that their hroar will prove less strong to last than they were designed to be. This seems to suggest fading in my opinion (though far off in the future), and interestingly in Author's Notes on the 'Commentary' (note 7) it's stated that Finrod had already 'glimpsed' the process of waning or fading.

In Aman the text gets around to longevity again, and the 'Stuff of Arda': 'But their bodies, being of the Stuff of Arda, were nonetheless not so enduring as their spirits; for the longevity of the Quendi (...) Therefore, after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken or grow weary. Very slowly indeed, but to all the Quendi perceptibly'. Then the explanation moves once again to fading.

Of course the growth to adulthood is still 'ageing', and the idea that the Melkor ingredient affects various aspects of growth seems reasonable. With mortals, growing to adulthood is still the path to death despite that it usually (I would think) is considered a phase of strengthening and vigor (as opposed to weakening and growing weary). Is the actual growth to adulthood affected by the 'debility introduced by Melkor' into the substance of Arda? Or rather the strength of the hroa to continue undimmed for thousands and thousands (and thousands) of years after maturity is gained.

'Some indeed of the Eldar doubt that any special grace or blessing was accorded to them, other than admittance to Aman. For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear -- a process which was not observed until the later ages -- is due to the marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ea. So all that happened in Aman was that this weakness of the Elvish hroar did not develop in the health of Aman and the Light of the Trees.' Aman and Mortal Men

So the 'weakness' did not develop, and earlier in the text (section Aman) it was noted (as above) that after the vitality of the hroa was expended in achieving full growth, it began to weaken. Say an Elf reaches full maturity at around 20 or 21 yéni but much later in life fades because his or her hroa is weakened by the Marring (basically the weakening showed no affect in early life). But if Finrod's reference is to something else other than the actual 'end result' of fading (which it appears to be, as he has noticed 'change' that leads him to guess about the ability of the hroa to last) why draw the line at 'no notable effect' before adulthood? Perhaps I should not.

Perhaps the two texts are compatible in this regard? and we have a changing growth rate to adulthood (in Middle-earth) from the early days that leads to the numbers in L&C?