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Old 11-27-2007, 06:26 PM   #1
cesar.ewok
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Awaken or born by Cuiviénen?

I've always considered that Elves like Finwë, Elwë and Ingwë were awaken by the lake of Cuiviénen. However, in "Cuivienyarna" it is told that each of the 144 Elves awaken there had their own partner. Finwë only maried Míriel in Aman, and Elwë met Melian in Nan Elmoth. This shows that they could not have been awaken there, but born, for they parted from Cuiviénen with Oromë to Valinor as ambassadors.

However, the earlier conception of this shows that they were awaken by the lake:
"But Nólemë [later Finwë] answering said: ''Lo! Most mighty one, whence [from Koivië, later Cuiviénen] indeed came we! For meseems I awoke but now from a sleep eternally profound, whose vast dreams already are forgotten.''"
(BoLT, The Coming of the Elves)

Moreover, Tolkien added in §60 of The Annals of Aman:
"Here they dwelt for a Year, and here Findis wife of Finwë bore him a son, eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar. He was first named Minyon First-begotten, but afterwards Curifinwë or Fëanor."
According to CT, this "was struck out, perhaps as soon as writen".

Though the story was to be wholly changed, and this passage was struck out, Fëanor is yet named "First-begotten", being the "eldest of all the second generation of the Eldar."
As we see here, the conception that Finwë, Elwë and Ingwë awoke around the lake was still in existence. But there's a problem: Elwë had a brother. Olwë is named for the first time in §58 of the Annals. Even so, can we still conciliate the idea that both were brothers and both were awaken? I think so. For otherwise Tolkien would not have written so heedlessly that Fëanor was the "First-begotten", for the idea that Elwë and Olwë were children of somebody would be too notable.

Either way, in "Cuivienyarna" all of them became born by Cuiviénen. Is then my interpretation correct that before Quendi and Eldar they (Elwë, Finwë, etc) were awaken by the lake and that after it they were no more?

Last edited by cesar.ewok; 11-27-2007 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 11-27-2007, 10:30 PM   #2
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I don't think Cuivienyarna was ever supposed to represent actual history: it was introduced as a childrens' counting-story.
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Old 11-28-2007, 10:49 AM   #3
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As noted, although the Legend of the Awakening of the Quendi (Cuivienyarna) was said to be 'preserved in almost identical form among the Elves of Aman and the Sindar' its style and simple notions are meant to suggest an Elvish fairytale, or child's tale, mingled with counting lore. In it the 'Unbegotten' Elves number 144, and the Elf-fathers were Imin, Tata, and Enel (sc. One, Two, Three).


In an early work called The Lhammas (The History of Middle-Earth series Volume V), written in the 1930s it seems, it is noted:

Quote:
'On the march to the West the Lindar went first, and the chief house among them was the house of Ingwe, high-king of the Eldalie, and the oldest of all Elves, for he first awoke.'
As the earlier version of the Silmarillion (Volume V) is essentially the same as the later version (Volume X) on this point, I'll quote the later one:

Quote:
'Therefore Orome was sent again to them, and he chose from among them three ambassadors; and he brought them to Valmar. These were Ingwe and Finwe and Elwe, who after were kings of the Three Kindreds of the Eldar.'
Another tradition, The Annals of Aman, relates the following passage of time and a few other details. Orome finds the Elves after...

Quote:
1085
'And when the Elves had dwelt in the world five and thirty years of the Valar (which is like unto three hundred and thirty-five of our years)...'


(But when Nahar neighed and Orome came among them some of the Quendi hid themselves, and some fled or were lost. Orome later comes back, and under the entry for 1102 he...)

'... chose from among them three ambassadors who should go to Valinor and speak for the people. And three only of the chieftains of the Quendi were willing to adventure the journey: Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe, who afterwards were kings'
And in The Grey Annals (or 'Annals of Beleriand'): Year 1102-5 'Ingwe, Finwe, and Elwe were brought to Valinor by Orome as ambassadors of the Quendi....' In 1128 Finwe is called a lord of the Noldor, and Elwe a lord of the Teleri.

I note that the Annals of Aman contains the detail that three only of the chieftains were willing to go.

I'm not sure Cuivienyarna can be used so certainly to support a 'fact' of very ancient history. That said, if one rules out the 'fairytale' I'm not sure it necessarily follows that Ingwe, Finwe, or Elwe were of the Eru-begotten. And despite that these early Elves lived in the deep past of Elvish history, the Cuivienyarna has the effect (in any case) of making the Awakening of the Elves seem even more 'remote', in my opinion.

Last edited by Galin; 11-28-2007 at 11:09 AM.
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Old 11-28-2007, 04:57 PM   #4
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Yes, IMO Cuivienyarna is conceived to be and Elvish fairy-tale. But the actual info that 144 awoke shouldn't be regarded as 'historically' true, considering that it is stated in the 'The Clan-names' section of Quendi and Eldar? (Whence you broght that first quote, Galin.)

And the statement 'and these proportions were approximately maintained until the Separation' doens't seem to enter into the 'fairy-tale', does it?
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Old 11-29-2007, 11:19 AM   #5
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The overlap with Q&E proper might (arguably) lend a certain measure of 'validity' to the actual tale itself; but that said, I think the 'caveat' (of sorts) is still to be noted. In any case I don't feel I can tell this or that person how much he or she can rely on all the details in Cuivienyarna as 'true history'.

For me the Fairytale creates no difficulty even if 'true' in this regard, because there's no text that I know of (at least with respect to the later corpus) certainly informing that Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe necessarily awoke in any case. It may seem like fence sitting but I prefer not to know for sure in this case, and think Tolkien was 'right' (if indeed I am right about what he was doing here!) to give the Awakening of the Elves this added element.

Not that it does create a 'difficulty' for you or anyone. But anyway I don't feel I can say something so clear cut as Cuivienyarna and Q&E certainly tells the Reader that Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe did not awake because of sibling or marriage considerations.

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Old 12-01-2007, 11:38 AM   #6
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The hallmark of Tolkien's Legendarium is internal consistency. The "awakening" of the Elves has continually been a part of Middle Earth almost since the beginning. If the tale of the awakening of the Elves were deemed a "faerie tale", the Legendarium would lose its consistency. It would lack any origin of the Elves despite the fact that it is, at bottom, a creation myth. There would be no basis for the Valar to "discover" the Elves in the East, the legends of the awakening of Men, Dwarves and Ents would also be rendered meaningless.

I recognize that, late in his life, Tolkien began experimenting with making Middle Earth consistent with the "real world". This would have required elimination of the flat Middle Earth concept, the Trees, the creation of the Sun and Moon, and a reworking or elimination of the drowning of Numenor. He did not get very far with his experimentation and whether Tolkien actually had decided to conduct this wholesale revision of his writings is, at best, a subject for debate. One might speculate that if Tolkien had gone forward with making Middle Earth more "scientific", i.e. less mythological and more consistent with our Earth, then he might have done away with the Elvish awakening myth. However, I doubt this. Tolkien was a Catholic. He certainly would not have the Elves "evolve". Nor is there any hint of an alternate tale in any published writings. So to state unequivocally that the Elvish awakening tale was a faerie story is simply speculation.

There is some slight basis for suggesting that the "old tales" were simply muddled Gondorian memories of tales told long before in Numenor; that they were "Mannish" faerie stories, corrupting the truth of the matter as known by the Elves (or at least the Noldor). But again, there is no alternate version of the tale, and The Silmarillion is itself a creation myth. How can you have a creation myth without accounting for the creation of Elves, Men, etc.

The Tale of 144 is, however, conceded to be a childrens' counting story. That does not mean the underlying myth is similarly a children's story.
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Old 12-01-2007, 01:00 PM   #7
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Yes, but.

For Tolkien as a philologist and medievalist, the 'consistency of reality' *included* uncertainties, confusions, garbled traditions, mysteries, enigmas, and a general observation that reality is messy. He was very aware that real history has, and thus feigned history should have, a lot of 'maybes.' Hence for example The Downfall of Anadune, as a garbled and inaccurate tradition; and his deliberate refusal to 'explain' Bombadil or reconcile him with the rest of the legendarium.
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Old 12-02-2007, 07:30 PM   #8
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And I am not denying an 'awakening' of the Elves in any event, nor do I think Tolkien was by writing the Cuivienyarna, but rather I'm merely proposing that the nature of the tale might cast doubt on certain details within itself.

The topic was raised with specific respect to Ingwe, Finwe, Elwe: if the Child's tale contains the 'truth' that each Elf awoke with a spouse, then there follows a line of argument that these Elves are not of the Eru-begotten.

But the existence of a fairy tale which involves the Awakening of the Elves in no way need 'replace' the account of the same event in The Annals or Quenta Silmarillion, or some other account.
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