The Moon! What Moon?!

[Elmo]

Ah, its good to be back to post yet another inane topic on this forum I've grown to love...

Em where was I? Ah yes the moon. From my rough understanding of Tolkien chronology of writing the legendarium, from its earliest beginning of it Tolkien had the creation of the moon at the same time as the sun after the two trees were destroyed by that Melkor and his spider chum. Then why does Gimli sing in the mines of Moria:

no stain yet on the moon was seen

when he is singing about Durin waking up in the Ages of the Stars when Menel was sans moon. I'd have always thought that Tolkien only conceived of the moon being there at that time of his writing of 'Myths Transformed' which were written long after LOTR was finished. Perhaps this the genesis of Tolkien's strange reworking of his legendarium was seen in this song but then again it is physically impossible to have 'no stain' on the moon at the time Durin awoke.

Maybe, perhaps, that the Dwarves were unaware of the chronology of Arda but I'd always thought that they seemed to be a relatively advanced folk who might have studied such things especially being surrounded by ancient rocks. Perhaps the ancient dwarves in Nogrod and Belegost knew the truth with their dealings with Elves and as the dwarves became more isolated they lost the knowledge. Maybe the dwarven poet who wrote it was just using artistic license but then again it must have been a common license to take in Middle Earth because a similar claim is made in a poem in the Adventures of Tom Bombadil. (Don't ask me the name I've returned the book to the library ) But then that poem also mentions Gods so I'm confused

[alatar]

Think that this 'moon stain' was a result of the belching smoke from that mysterious Shire locomotive driven by the talking fox...

Guess that it's just a literary device (if I'm using that right).

You look at the moon and see 'stains,' as, looking down at your shirt after a sumptuous dwarven meal, the food and beverage that wasn't caught in your beard now decorates your shirt. Stains don't appear when something is new, like when you took your shirt out of the drawer and put it on that morning, hence the moon must be old as it looks more like your post-meal shirt. If your shirt could have once been clean (even if you never remember it being otherwise ), then so could the moon. Just another way of indicating time's passage; time's arrow where we go from pristine clean to cluttery dirt. Entropy.

Whatever; what did cause those stains in Tolkien's cosmology? Asteroids? Melkor? Or does Tilion need a bib?

[Elmo]

Good point, I hadn't really thought of a non-asteroidal reason for the stains. Myths Transformed really messed with my mind.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Good point, I hadn't really thought of a non-asteroidal reason for the stains. Myths Transformed really messed with my mind.

Your thread struck a cord as I just finished rereading a book on greek mythology. Many of the stories provide 'explanations' of why we observe the world as we do. Reading your thread, I now am stuck wondering just how Tolkien explains the current condition of the moon.

In another thread, I wondered how elves, returning across the Straight Road to our current time/space, would think about the moon as, well, we've been there, done that and left a flag - and we're going back.


P.S. Congrats on your ascension; it's the climbing, not the peak, that counts.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

Whatever; what did cause those stains in Tolkien's cosmology? Asteroids? Melkor? Or does Tilion need a bib?

As far as I know...

First:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened.

Second, not necessary but here might lay the reason as well:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion; Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor

But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious.

Damage assessment: 80%?

[Galin]

Christopher Tolkien notes that Ainulindale C* Round World Version was:

'...thus an experiment, conceived and composed, as it appears, before the writing of The Return of the King, and certainly before The Lord of the Rings was finished. It was set aside; but as it will appear later in this book, it was by no means entirely forgotten.' Morgoth's Ring

In Ainulindale C* (in which the Sun was not a Tree-flower) Melkor took a portion of the earth and this became Ithil, and its origin is placed in the context of the tumults of the making of Arda.

So we can see Tolkien thinking about variant ideas before he finished The Lord of the Rings anyway, more generally speaking. As to the whole tale, this is an interesting question, and there's a very interesting later revision to The Hobbit that might be noted. In the First Edition (1937)...

'... before they came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight before the raising of the Sun and Moon; and afterwards they wandered in the forests that grew beneath the sunrise. They loved best the edges of the woods,...'

This was changed by JRRT in 1966 to read:

'... before some came back into the Wide World. In the Wide World the Wood-elves lingered in the twilight of our Sun and Moon, but loved best the stars; and they wandered in the great forests that grew tall in lands that are now lost. They dwelt most often by the edges of the woods,...'

[alatar]

Thanks, Legate of Amon Lanc, for the quotes.

But Tilion was wayward and uncertain in speed, and held not to his appointed path; and he sought to come near to Arien, being drawn by her splendour, though the flame of Anar scorched him, and the island of the Moon was darkened.

and

But Morgoth hated the new lights, and was for a while confounded by this unlooked-for stroke of the Valar. Then he assailed Tilion, sending spirits of shadow against him, and there was strife in Ilmen beneath the paths of the stars; but Tilion was victorious.

I'd considered this, but 'scorching' to me would (yes, this is nuts and picayune) produces a different pattern. The moon, as we currently see it (no pictures available from the Third Age), looks blotchy - stained, or blood-splattered - and not scorched, which could result in a more uniform darkening. If blood, who's? If not blood, what? And doesn't anyone have a towel and bucket of soapy water? And weren't these chariots of the gods hallowed?

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It seems to me that Tolkien was already thinking along "Myths Transformed" lines as early as 1942, where Treebeard refers several times to the Great Darkness (T also used this term for Sauron's volcanic overcast, which echoes his MT concept of Morgoth's worldwide smog).

Still, Moria was written *very* early, not all that long after the Bombadil chapters (which are explicitly "flat-earth")- so I'd go with 'poetic device'. Longing for a lost Golden Age is a Tolkien hallmark. After all, the mountains wer still "tall" in Gimli's day!

[Galin]

I tend to agree with Robert Foster and Hammond and Scull that Treebeard's Great Darkness refers to a time of Morgoth's influence in Middle-earth.

If this is true Treebeard's story of the Entwives is interesting: 'When the world was young, and the woods were wide and wild' the Ents and the Entwives walked together and housed together. But their hearts did not go on growing in the same way, and the Entwives gave their minds also to the 'meads in the Sunshine.' Then the Darkness came in the North, and the Entwives move.

There was seemingly Sun and seasons before Morgoth exerted this influence in Middle-earth (though I suppose this sequence could be more fluid). Treebeard also relates that the Elves began waking trees up and teaching them to speak-- but then the Great Darkness came, and the Elves passed over the Sea, or fled into far valleys (Treebeard implies that Orcs were 'made', or first appeared at least, in the Great Darkness as well).

In Myths Transformed however, the idea seems different: in Text II Melkor darkens the World with great clouds, knowing that the coming of the Children is imminent. The Moon and Stars are invisible in the North, Day is dim. Manwe and Varda strive against the Clouds but Melkor closes the veil. Then comes the Great Wind of Manwe, rending the veil -- the stars shine, seemingly terribly bright. 'It is in the dark just before that the Elves awake. The first thing they see in the dark is the stars.' Melkor brings up glooms out of the east, and the stars fade away West.

'Just before what' is the question. And I think the meaning is just before Manwe has achieved the rending of the clouds, that is, or at least about the same time, so that the Quendi can first see the stars despite Morgoth's plan. In Text V indeed at the time when the Valar removed to Aman, 'it [darkness and diminishment of growth) was due to obscurations devised by Melkor: cloud and smokes (a volcanic era!).

In the Quenta Simarillion of HME V, this 'Great Darkness' would seem to be the time discussed in §18 Of the Coming of The Elves, where Morgoth's 'realm spread now ever southward over the Middle-earth' (though in this version it is said that although Morgoth made many monsters of divers kinds and shapes 'yet the Orcs were not made until he had looked upon the Elves.'). Treebeard's words do not seem to be in reference to a time after Morgoth's return, because the Hiding of Valinor followed this, and the Noldor returned to Middle-earth (again, as Treebeard says when the Darkness came the Elves passed over Sea, or fled)

According to the Later Annals of Valinor (HME V) this seems to fit: '... and he made his fortress at Utumna in the North; but he held sway with violence and the lands were yet more broken in that time.'

In the (later) Annals of Aman (HME X): 'Long the Quendi dwelt in their first home by the water under the Stars' and when they had dwelt three hundred and thirty five years Orome first heard the Elves. Melkor had been sowing fear, but he was taken captive before the Great march.

[alatar]

Why does Tolkien make the same, ah, mistake that other mythologies seems to do in making the Moon a 'light' when actually it's a reflector, having no light of its own?

On the other hand, Tolkien's world actually does start out flat (necessitating a trans subterranean west-to-east railroad of sorts), then becomes spherical later in time, meaning that the sun and moon begin to act more like our sun and moon.

[Galin]

My view is that flat world notions are but one tradition among others (including traditions that are 'mixed'). Myths Transformed are not the only texts which hint at Round World mythology. In the 'Atlantis' or Númenórean works, for example, I note the following from 'The Theory Of The Work' in The Drowning of Anadûnê

Sketch I (bracketed text):

'The Enkeladim told them that the world was round, but that was a hard saying to them. Some of their great mariners tried to find out.' (An interesting added passage reads: 'Sauron says the world is round. There is nothing outside but Night -- and other worlds.')

Sketch III:

'The ancient Númenóreans knew (being taught by the Eledái) that the Earth was round; but Sauron taught them that it was a disc and flat, and beyond was nothing, where his master ruled.' JRRT, The Drowning of Anadûnê' (though this part appears to have been struck through by Tolkien).

Christopher Tolkien follows the Sketches with an interesting commentary, part of which reads...

'At this time, perhaps, in the context of The Notion Club Papers and of the vast enlargement of his great story that was coming into being in The Lord of the Rings, he began to be concerned with questions of 'tradition' and the vagaries of tradition, the losses, confusions, simplifications and amplifications in the evolution of legend, as they might apply to his own -- within the always enlarging compass of Middle-earth. This is speculation; it would have been helpful indeed if he had at this time left any record or note, however brief, of his reflections. But many years later he did write such a note, though brief indeed, on the envelope that contains the texts of The Drowning of Anadûnê:'

'Contains very old version (in Adunaic) which is good -- in so far as it is just as much different (in inclusion and omission and emphasis) as would be probable in the supposed case:
(a) Mannish Tradition
(b) Elvish tradition
(c) Mixed Dúnedanic tradition'

JRRT (Christopher guesses this to have been written sometime in the 1960s)

Christopher guesses it is likely that:

The Drowning of Anadune -- Mannish tradition
The Fall of Numenor -- Elvish tradition
Akallabeth -- Mixed (Mixed Elvish and Numenorean 'he was surely referring to the Akallabeth, in which both the Fall of Numenor and the Drowning of Anadune were used.')

I note too the Legend of the Awakening of the Quendi, said to be 'preserved in almost identical form among both the Elves of Aman and the Sindar' in which the first Elves, Imin, Tata and Enel awoke before dawn in the spring of the year, and at one point Imin and his companions 'walked long by day and by twilight in the country about the lake'. In this tradition the Elves still see the Stars when they first awake, handled beautifully in comparison to other traditions (the Sun as a Tree-flower).

As late as 1971 Tolkien writes (in a letter) about the Immortals who travel to the West, explaining that they followed the Straight Road, left the physical world, including the idea that the Elves who sailed were abandoning history. JRRT touches upon the sojourn of the mortals Oversea as well, and concludes with...

'This general idea lies behind the events of The Lord of the Rings and the Silmarillion, but it is not put forward as geologically or astronomically 'true'; except that some special catastrophe is supposed to lie behind the legends and marked the first stage in the succession of Men to dominion of the world. But the legends are mainly of 'Mannish' origin blended with those of the Sindar (Gray-elves) and others who had never left Middle-earth.'

JRRT, Letter 325, 1971

[William Cloud Hicklin]

The newspaper-wrapper ca. 1965 raises a very interesting issue of analysis. It's certainly more than speculation or guesswork to identify each version of the Atlantis-myth with the three 'traditions'- The Drowning of Anadune with its Adunaic nomenclature and Numenocentric POV is unquestionably the 'Mannish' tradition; and the Akallabeth, elsewhere ascribed to Elendil himself, is literally a 'blended' tradition, its text representing a shuffling together of DA and the Fall of Numenor, with additional material- CRT illustrates this orthographically in HME IX p. 295f. Significantly, this Elendil-version amends DA material to bring it back to the Flat-world perspective, which is understandable since Tolkien's early Round-world experiments ca. 1946-48 had been rejected by 1951 and the explicitly Flat-world Annals of Aman.

But what was Tolkien thinking in the mid-1960's? I think it inescapable that the Elvish tradition, presumptively correct, is Flat-world, as is the Dunedainic tradition made under the influence of Lindon and Rivendell, whereas the one Round-world version must be taken as garbled (and indeed the earlier versions of DA are deliberately 'confused'). There follows a very strong deduction or supposition that by the mid-1960's Toklien had evolved a very sophisticated 'theory of the tale': the Flat world was correct, and the Breaking really did happen; but Men outside Eldarin tutelage were so small-minded/unimaginative/divorced from the Valar that they refused to believe that such naked Divine intervention had really occurred (after all it violates 'scientific' thinking).




I should emphasise that flat-world/round-world is not inextricably tied to the other part of the astronomical myth, the Sun and Moon. There is little doubt at all that JRRT had decided conclusively to abandon the flower and fruit story and that the Heavenly Lights had existed ab initio- indeed in the Hobbit 3rd Ed (1966) he emended text in just such a way.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hickli

... But what was Tolkien thinking in the mid-1960's? I think it inescapable that the Elvish tradition, presumptively correct, is Flat-world, as is the Dunedainic tradition made under the influence of Lindon and Rivendell, whereas the one Round-world version must be taken as garbled (and indeed the earlier versions of DA are deliberately 'confused'). There follows a very strong deduction or supposition that by the mid-1960's Toklien had evolved a very sophisticated 'theory of the tale': the Flat world was correct, and the Breaking really did happen; but Men outside Eldarin tutelage were so small-minded/unimaginative/divorced from the Valar that they refused to believe that such naked Divine intervention had really occurred (after all it violates 'scientific' thinking).

Why (merely wondering about your reasons in more detail) do you state that the more correct flat-world legends are Elvish? because of the extant version of FN at the time of this note?

I should emphasise that flat-world/round-world is not inextricably tied to the other part of the astronomical myth, the Sun and Moon. There is little doubt at all that JRRT had decided conclusively to abandon the flower and fruit story and that the Heavenly Lights had existed ab initio- indeed in the Hobbit 3rd Ed (1966) he emended text in just such a way.

I agree. Tolkien does appear to very generally connect them 'in consideration', so to speak, in Myths Transformed text I -- being, I think, not unnaturally tied in general as 'counter conceptions' (this term based on Christopher Tolkien comments after text I):

'It is at any rate clear, for he stated it unambiguously enough, that he had come to believe that the art of the 'Sub-creator' cannot, or should not attempt to, extend to the 'mythical' revelation of a conception of the shape of the Earth and the origin of the lights of heaven that runs counter to the known physical tuths of his own days.'

But yes, 'evidence' of an early Sun is not necessarily evidence of Round World ideas, and I should have made that point before my comments on the legend of the Awakening of the Quendi. I tend to interpret these ideas as tied or that 'Early Sun' might imply Round World, but they need not be inextricably tied, as you say.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Why (merely wondering about your reasons in more detail) do you state that the more correct flat-world legends are Elvish? because of the extant version of FN at the time of this note?

Well, at the time of the note (ca 1965) the documents contained in the wrapper were all much older: FNIII poss. 1937, DA 1946, Akallabeth early 50's.

Matching up the three texts to the three 'traditions' of the note follow logically. DA can only be Numenorean, Ak has to be the 'blended' version, and that leaves FN as the 'elvish' version.

In determining which version is 'true' we must be guided by the internal logic of the legendarium. Tolkien himself of course maintained that the Eldar would know "true astronomy," learned directly from the Valar. One would assume that such knowledge would also be found in the House of Elrond, where exiled Noldor, Wizards, and Glorfindel redivivus were available: and the Akallabeth, whether written by Elendil or a later Arnorian with access to Rivendell (and Lindon), deliberately corrects the portions it copies from DA back to an explicitly flat-world framework.

The point I suppose is that in the mid-Sixties Tolkien ratified the old Fall of Numenor as an 'elvish' account, rather than simply rejecting it as obsolete (as he did with the Tale of the Sun and Moon). If FN retained its canonicity in his mind, then we must, I think, accept it as the teaching of the Wise, and presumptively 'true' (whereas Mannish texts Tolkien always characterises as garbled or unreliable).


Of course there is also the unresolved issue of the Silmarillion's missing frame-story, or, if you like, its unknown provenance. Tolkien still trotted out Pengolodh and Aelfwine in pretty late writings. OTOH he explicitly stated in his last years that the Sil was a Numenorean text- and ofr course CT is convinced that Bilbo was the vector.

These last two, at least, can be reconciled, if we suppose that the library at Imladris where Bilbo worked also served as the archive and repository of the surviving lore of Arnor, and that Elvish historiography was of such a nature as to be confusing or alien to a mortal mind- so that Bilbo preferred to work from Dunedainic texts (written of course in Sindarin). It is certainly the case that the section on Turin was (internally) an abridgment of the Narn i Chin Hurin, written by a Man, Dirhavel.

[Galin]

Originally Posted by William Cloud Hicklin

Well, at the time of the note (ca 1965) the documents contained in the wrapper were all much older: FNIII poss. 1937, DA 1946, Akallabeth early 50's. Matching up the three texts to the three 'traditions' of the note follow logically. DA can only be Numenorean, Ak has to be the 'blended' version, and that leaves FN as the 'elvish' version.

Did the envelope that contained the texts of DA contain these other documents? I did not think so from the description, though it doesn't matter much if it did.

In determining which version is 'true' we must be guided by the internal logic of the legendarium. Tolkien himself of course maintained that the Eldar would know "true astronomy," learned directly from the Valar.

Agreed, truer tales hailed from the 'gods' and those associated with them, and one notes that in DA it is the Nimîr that taught that the world was round. There were Men who found this hard to believe, or they believed it but were tricked by Sauron telling them it was flat. This is not consonant with the idea that the Elves knew the truth of a flat world of course.

One would assume that such knowledge would also be found in the House of Elrond, where exiled Noldor, Wizards, and Glorfindel redivivus were available: and the Akallabeth, whether written by Elendil or a later Arnorian with access to Rivendell (and Lindon), deliberately corrects the portions it copies from DA back to an explicitly flat-world framework.

Or the AK, being a mixed document, contains persistent mannish notions concerning the shape of the world. Generally speaking, contact with those who arguably know better need not mean a given idea in a given account will be corrected.

'It is now clear to me that in any case the Mythology must actually be a 'Mannish' affair (...) what we have in the Silmarillion etc. are traditions (especially personalized, and centered upon actors, such as Feanor) handed on by Men in Númenor and later in Middle-earth (Arnor and Gondor); but already far back -- from the first association of the Dúnedain and Elf-friends with the Eldar of Beleriand -- blended and confused with their own Mannish myths and cosmic ideas.' JRRT Text I Myths Transformed, Morgoth's Ring

The point I suppose is that in the mid-Sixties Tolkien ratified the old Fall of Numenor as an 'elvish' account, rather than simply rejecting it as obsolete (as he did with the Tale of the Sun and Moon). If FN retained its canonicity in his mind, then we must, I think, accept it as the teaching of the Wise, and presumptively 'true' (whereas Mannish texts Tolkien always characterises as garbled or unreliable).

But that is a big 'if' in my opinion, and I see no compelling evidence that Tolkien surely ratified such an old version as updated and correct (or correct on all points, like possibly the flying ships of the Numenoreans too, for example).

JRRT's note merely reveals that he thinks DA is good (for the reasons stated) in the proposed case of three different traditions... to my mind this is still a leap away from FN (or even DA actually) as it was written now going to stand 'as was'. I think this is pushing Christopher Tolkien's 'categorization' too far in too specific a way. If indeed we are left with FN III being the likely 'Elvish representative' in general, it would not take much revision to have it agree with what the Elves taught in DA.

posted earlier: There follows a very strong deduction or supposition that by the mid-1960's Toklien had evolved a very sophisticated 'theory of the tale': the Flat world was correct, and the Breaking really did happen; but Men outside Eldarin tutelage were so small-minded/unimaginative/divorced from the Valar that they refused to believe that such naked Divine intervention had really occurred (after all it violates 'scientific' thinking).

OK, if that's something they refused to believe, what do you suggest these Men did believe however (within the context that it is 'true' that the earth was originally flat)?

This is a very interesting take but I am still confused a bit by it... and not yet swayed.

It seems you are proposing (if what you suggest is correct), that in the 1960s and despite the concerns found in Myths Transformed, Tolkien decided that the 'truth' about the original shape of the world runs counter to that of the Primary World. Rather I think in Tolkien's legends 'scientific thinking' is what flat world thinkers are not engaging in. And one implication is that when certain Men found out the world was round they yet believed it had been flat -- and thus that meant Divine intervention, for what else could explain this.

I understand that DA is the confused Mannish myth, but what is being confused exactly? The notion in DA and the sketches is that the Eldar were teaching that the world was round. Men indeed might have confused something about these 'immortal' beings, or something about the lands from which they came (see also Christopher Tolkien's look at some of the purposed variances in SD)... but how is it that the Numenoreans thought the Elves were teaching round world notions if they were actually instructing them about a flat world? I can't see good reason for them to get this wrong. Of course it remains possible that I am confused, but I could find no text or commentary which seems to support this had somehow been garbled too.

[Galin]

Just thought I would add a few more opinions, possibly to inspire more here.

'The Notion Club Papers hinted at a concept that could have saved Tolkien his worries over the cosmology: that of two distinct pasts, the historical and the mythical, 'secondary planes and degrees,' merging at the fall of Atlantis/Númenor. Before that, the universe of the Ambarkanta was real. After, our astronomical universe, with its round earth, and solar system (...) is the reality. How the one can be antecedent to the other is simply left as an unfathomable mystery. Were a Wellsian time machine to go into the past, it would not go back to Númenor or Beleriand but to the prehistoric and geological past we are already familiar with. But it might still be possible to visit the mythical past via the more spiritual means suggested by Ramer in The Notion Club Papers.'

Charles E. Noad On the Construction of the Silmarillion Tolkien's Legendarium

Compare that to something from John D. Rateliff's 'And All The Days Of Her Life Are Forgotten The Lord of the Rings as Mythic Prehistory' (published in The Lord of the Rings 1954-2004 Scholarship in honor of Richard E. Blackwelder), where Rateliff suggests that Tolkien's solution, posited in The Notion Club Papers, was: '... that a change could come, so drastic that it changed not only the present and of course the future from that point on but even the past as well, so that the present now derived from a different past and the original past had no longer ever happened, being transformed from history -- the things that actually happened -- into myth; the things we remember that exist now only in legend and memory.'

In note 13 Rateliff quotes something from Tolkien in a 1965 BBC interview, that after the Downfall Númenor 'lived then only in memory. It lived in time but not present time... Númenor was drowned, and the Earthly Paradise removed, and so then you could get to Central America!...[The] world became round' and goes on to suggest that the Hobbits 'seem to experience his (Bombadil's) words more as shared memories than as told tales, experiences that predate a human or human-like occupation of the land.'