The Winged beasts vs The Eagles

In the siege of Minas Tirith, the Nazgul wre causing havoc agaisnt the soldiers of Gondor. In this situation, support from the Eagles would have proved most useful. Why then did Gandalf not seek the support of the Gwaihir the Windlord? The orcs would have been reluctant to fire arrows at the Eagles if they swarmed close to the winged beasts, incase they slew the wrong target.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I don't think the Nazgul did much. Apart from crying and demoralizing the Gondorians in the few days before the battle, and twice pursuing Faramir when he retreated to the city, they did not intervene. The pursuit of Faramir was too fast for the Eagles to come from the North, and otherwise there was no need of their help. Also the Eagles did not just come on Gandalf's call. How would he contact them? Gwaihir was sitting in his nest, Gandalf was seven hundred miles away. And the Eagles could as well serve their purpose by getting rid of the mountain goblins. Mainly, the battle at Pelennor was not a battle where the Eagles could - by logic - be of much use. They could not attack the hosts in plains, at maximum they'll get shot down. They were not close to the Gondorians in any way. So, I think it would be weird if they came.

[Boromir88]

Legate, you bring up good points about the Eagles not being at the battle (and let's remember they do show up at the Morannon ). However, I am going to disagree with you with this one:

I don't think the Nazgul did much. Apart from crying and demoralizing the Gondorians in the few days before the battle,

I think the Nazgul had a great effect during the Siege of Minas Tirith and Pelennor Fields. This was while Sauron's Army was already swarmed at the Gate:

...But soon there were few left in Minas Tirith who had the heart to stand up and defy the hosts of Mordor. For yet another weapon, swifter than hunger, the Lord of the Dark Tower had: dread and despair.
The Nazgul came again, and as their Dark Lord now grew and put forth his strength, so their voices, which uttered only his will and his malice, were filled with evil and horror. Ever they circled the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air. More unbearable they became, not less, at each new cry. At length even the stout-hearted would fling themselves to the ground as the hidden menace passed over them, or they would stand, letting their weapons fall from nerveless hands while into their minds a blackness came, and they thought no more of war; but only of hiding and of crawling, and of death.~The Siege of Gondor

I don't think the Nazgul (and the fell beasts they road) were swooping around gobbling up Gondorian soldiers as the movies portrayed...as Tolkien compares them circling above the City ('out of sight and shot') to vultures; vultures being carrion fowl. However, they were always present and having an effect during the battle:

So it was that Gandalf took command of the last defense of the City of Gondor. Wherever he came men's hearts would lift again, and the winged shadows pass from memory...
And yet - when they [Gandalf and the Knights of Dol Amroth~me] had gone, the shadows closed on men again, and their hearts went cold, and the valour of Gondor withered into ash.~ibid

I think the Nazgul did have a great presense about them during the Siege of Gondor, but do agree that the Eagles could not have helped in that situation, at that time, due to the reasons you gave.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Legate

I think the Nazgul did have a great presense about them during the Siege of Gondor, but do agree that the Eagles could not have helped in that situation, at that time, due to the reasons you gave.

I cannot remember the exact quote, but was it not said that the Nazgul feared the Eagles? They were effective in keeping the Nazgul at bay in the Back Gate Opens chapter. Even if the Eagles were deployed to keep the Nazgul out of sight, it may have helped the soldiers of Gondor.

As for Gwaiher, would he not have heard news of trouble in Gondor? His eyes see far, he is wise & even gives Gandalf counsel when asked, & he has many servants. I would imagine he could have sent scouts to spy out the lands, particularly as he was in close friendship with Gandalf & Radaghast. Also, it must not be underestimated the speed at which Eagles can fly, they are the windlords of the sky, unrivalled.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by The Siege of Gondor, RotK

Ever they circled the City, like vultures that expect their fill of doomed men's flesh. Out of sight and shot they flew, and yet were ever present, and their deadly voices rent the air.

In my opinion, the eagles may have acted as a powerful deterrence against these maneuvers, moving at the same safe distance from ordinary weapons - which would have probably kept the nazgul at a longer distance, thus diminishing their direct effect and this sort of local air superiority would have been a strong, positive, moral factor for the defenders. If I were to make a comparison before battles, sort of speaking, their role at the last battle would not have made much of a difference (and less than at Minas Tirith), seeing that that entire military mission was doomed from the start, less the hobbits prevailed. By and large, and strictly in military terms, the chances of success of the Minas Tirith battle were far higher than that of Morannon, and the eagles would have meant more at the former than at the latter.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

What you say here, Boro and Raynor, is true, but still I don't think the Eagles would have to come to Gondor just because some battle is fought there. Don't let us forget - as Gandalf says - that different battles of almost or the same importance were fought at that time also in the North, and we don't know whether the Eagles joined them or not, but if they were to join any of the battles, then I think more likely in one that took place near to them. In the light of this it's only logical that they arrived at the battle of Morannon, when the main battles were already won on the North. And still, note that according to the Tale of the Years, the battles of Lórien (the second one) and Dale were fought several days before and still the Eagles arrived at Morannon only in the last hour (the Nazgul were just driven off, but 99% of the battle they were flying above the hosts undisturbed). So what you said about Gwaihir hearing news about the trouble in Gondor, Mansun, I think would make no difference - he had the same sort of enemies nearer to his own nest, and he could not be sure whether there are going to be any winged Nazgul at Minas Tirith or if there are not going to be any here on the North until the battles started (if he even knew about their existence, which is not definitely sure).

As a side note - please don't let ourselves get influenced by the movie nonsense (and I presume you are not, I'm saying that just to be sure) - Gandalf had nothing to do with the Eagles coming to Morannon, they arrived on their own account. I would presume them to be "driven by fate", them being birds of Manwë and all, but it is also possible that they simply decided that the North is more or less safe now and that they'll try to help in the final battle (of which, again, they could have learned by some "divine message" or how to call it). (Is not something about the reason of their coming in the Letters, for example?)

And if I were to be indeed nasty to the Eagles, then what exactly is said about the Eagles and the Nazgul is just this:

Originally Posted by Cormallen Field

There came Gwaihir the Windlord, and (...)[other eagles]. Straight down upon the Nazgûl they bore, stooping suddenly out of the high airs, and the rush of their wide wings as they passed over was like a gale.
But the Nazgûl turned and fled, and vanished into Mordor's shadows, hearing a sudden terrible call out of the Dark Tower...

So technically, the Eagles arrived only to pick up Frodo and Sam. "Group Alpha, to the evac point!" The Nazgul, as we see from the quote, did not turn back because of the Eagles, but because they were called back by Sauron (to stop Frodo), that is clear. It just happened that the Eagles arrived at the same moment (and who knows, maybe if the Nazgul had time to fight back, the Eagles would tear the winged beasts to pieces). But all the time the Morannon hosts fought under the shadow of terror, and the coming of Eagles was just one of (though important) the factors to boost the morale of the western armies in the end.

The battles fought in the North were of far less importance to Middle Earth than the survival of Minas Tirith. The scale of the army heading from Mordor to Gondor would also have been far greater than anywhere else. Plus we add the fact that the Eagles had already appeared in the Battle of Five Armies of their own accord. They would have served as an excellent shield to fend off the Nazgul if deployed by Gandalf. He would have had plenty of time to send messengers to gain the support of the Eagles. They are also loyal to him when called.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Legate

What you say here, Boro and Raynor, is true, but still I don't think the Eagles would have to come to Gondor just because some battle is fought there.

I agree that, in the general sense, the eagles would and should not come to a battle simply because it is fought. However, I believe that the importance of the city of Minas Tirith, as the foremost bastion of resistance, and its battle, is far higher than any other, at that time. Even if the hobbits prevailed, the forces of the West would have an incredible challenge ahead of them if the armies of Mordor already commanded Minas Tirith.

[Boromir88]

Even if the Eagles were deployed to keep the Nazgul out of sight, it may have helped the soldiers of Gondor.~Mansun

I agree, and sorry for the bit of confusion...I didn't mean that the Eagles would not have been useful in the battle, just that for the reasons Legate gave, the Eagles could not have helped. As they were quite a distance away, Gandalf could not have contacted them (the reason Gwaihir went to Orthanc was because Gandalf told Radagast to get in touch with his bird friends to act as messengers - so Gwaihir agreed to serve as a messenger). And, even if Gwaihir knew a large battle was brewing in Gondor that didn't mean he was obligated to go help.

Let's remember too that at the Black Gate the Witch-King wasn't around (Eowyn and Merry made sure he wasn't a problem ). The Nazgul were much stronger when all nine were gathered together, and they were with their captain.

The battles fought in the North were of far less importance to Middle Earth than the survival of Minas Tirith.~Mansun

I disagree, while I agree with Raynor that Gondor was Sauron's strongest and most hated enemy, and had Minas Tirith fallen to Sauron that would make Frodo's mission far more difficult, the other smaller battles were arguably just as important (not to the fate of Frodo's quest, but to 'home' that he returned to). Especially the Dwarves, having booted out Smaug reclaiming Erebor, and their allies the Men of Dale holding off the Easterling force:

'Yet things might have gone far otherwise and far worse. When you think of the great Battle of the Pelennor, do not forget the battles in Dale and the valour of Durin's Folk. Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted - because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.'~Appendix A: Durin's Folk

So technically, the Eagles arrived only to pick up Frodo and Sam.~Legate

That's a great find. I always wondered why the Eagles showed up at the Black Gate, I mean they seemed to have joined in the fight and then Gandalf 'oh since you're here Gwaihir would you mind going to pick up Frodo?' But I'm reminded of the several Letters where Tolkien comments about Eru intervening to spare Frodo. That since Frodo had shown pity to Gollum, Eru gave Frodo his own salvation and relieved him from the burden of the Ring. However, than we have the problem of...ok Ring destroyed, but Frodo and Sam are still stuck in Mordor...ah wait, in come's Manwe's eagles, ok Frodo and Sam are back. Now thinking about Eru's involvement in destroying the Ring, perhaps this coincides with the Eagles arrival at the Black Gates, not necessarily to join in the fight but to bring Frodo and Sam out of Mordor.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mansun

The battles fought in the North were of far less importance to Middle Earth than the survival of Minas Tirith. The scale of the army heading from Mordor to Gondor would also have been far greater than anywhere else. Plus we add the fact that the Eagles had already appeared in the Battle of Five Armies of their own accord. They would have served as an excellent shield to fend off the Nazgul if deployed by Gandalf. He would have had plenty of time to send messengers to gain the support of the Eagles. They are also loyal to him when called.

Originally Posted by Raynor

I agree that, in the general sense, the eagles would and should not come to a battle simply because it is fought. However, I believe that the importance of the city of Minas Tirith, as the foremost bastion of resistance, and its battle, is far higher than any other, at that time. Even if the hobbits prevailed, the forces of the West would have an incredible challenge ahead of them if the armies of Mordor already commanded Minas Tirith.

Your posts then make one say: If so, then, why did not the Eagles arrive to Minas Tirith? And that's what the original question was. This proves what I said, that on their own initiative the Eagles did not have the intention to come. At Erebor, we are told that they joined the battle because they wanted to stop the orcs (or goblins).

Originally Posted by Hobbit, Chapter 18, The Return Journey

The Eagles had long had suspicion of the goblins' mustering; from their watchfulness the movements in the mountains could not be altogether hid. So they too had gathered in great numbers, under the great Eagle of the Misty Mountains; and at length smelling battle from afar they had come speeding down the gale in the nick of time.

And as I said, during the War of the Ring, there were plenty Orcs on the North as well, and whether or not the battle at Pelennor was the greatest of all the battles fought, the others were also important. So, there are technically two possibilities: either the Eagles had some stuff to do on the North (let's say patrol first and mainly the area that was closer to their homes, or guard the Mountains if the mountain-orcs do not make advantage of the situation and cause some trouble when the attention is focused elsewhere), or they were passive and Gandalf (whose call they heeded) simply did not contact them. From what I quoted earlier, I think the first is more probable. Once again, I don't deny that the battle of Minas Tirith was the most important of the battles fought, but as far as we know, the Eagles always come when they are needed, and this time they simply did not come. Ergo, the need was not that high this time. And I don't think Gandalf's invitation had anything to do with that - in the Battle of the Five Armies, they arrived and Gandalf did not play any role in it; the same at Morannon. Gwaihir himself says that he was meant to carry messages, not burdens, though he does not mean that as complaining; and coming to battle with all of your offspring is something even more. One has to notice this thin line of, how to call that, "politeness" on both sides. I believe he would arrive if Gandalf asked for it, but Gandalf himself probably would not dare to ask that of his friend. Maybe if the need was indeed high. But again, apparently it was not. Gandalf's hope (concerning Minas Tirith) were the Rohirrim and mainly Aragorn, not some eagles.

EDIT: X-posted with Boro, and I see we nicely complete some of the points together.

[Raynor]

Think of what might have been. Dragon-fire and savage swords in Eriador, night in Rivendell. There might be no Queen in Gondor. We might now hope to return from the victory here only to ruin and ash. But that has been averted - because I met Thorin Oakenshield one evening on the edge of spring in Bree. A chance-meeting, as we say in Middle-earth.'~Appendix A: Durin's Folk

I believe the context implies that Gandalf does not refer to other battles, synchronous with Pelennor Fields as saving these homes, but to his meeting with Thorin and the events at the time of the Hobbit that avoided all these disasters, considering also his reference to dragon-fire.

Originally Posted by Legate

the Eagles always come when they are needed, and this time they simply did not come. Ergo, the need was not that high this time.

True, but if they are an instrument of providence, as it is implied at least in the letters, their actions are probably dictated by foreknowledge, be it of Manwe or Eru. In my post I simply addressed the likely military importance of the eagles, should they have been there, as compared to their presence elsewhere.

This proves what I said, that on their own initiative the Eagles did not have the intention to come.

Hm, I am not aware that they knew. However, I agree with you that, if they knew, the logical explanation is that they chose to, or had to, pass this battle.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I believe the context implies that Gandalf does not refer to other battles, synchronous with Pelennor Fields as saving these homes, but to his meeting with Thorin and the events at the time of the Hobbit that avoided all these disasters, considering also his reference to dragon-fire.

But the words before are:

Originally Posted by UT

The main attack was diverted southwards, it is true; and yet even so with his farstretched right hand Sauron could have done terrible harm in the North, while he defended Gondor, if King Brand and King Dáin had not stood in his path. When you think of the great Battle of Pelennor, do not forget the Battle of Dale. Think of what might have been (etc)

Gandalf speaks, I believe, about both: about Smaug (which was solved back then) and about the Battle of Dale - that much is clear.

Originally Posted by Raynor

Hm, I am not aware that they knew. However, I agree with you that, if they knew, the logical explanation is that they chose to, or had to, pass this battle.

Of course I was referring to the option if they knew.