Saruman's ending (PJ's way) P.S. Spoilers! - Page 2 - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Only Real Estel · 10-28-2004, 09:05 PM

Quote:

I merely meant that even if a bow would usually go 400 yards, it doesn't mean it would fly 400 yards directly upwards, as it moves against gravity. The arrow would eventually slow to a crawl, stop, then come back down before reaching Orthanc

Given that it's all just good fantasy fun n' games I'm sure the bow would have no problem.
On a more Tolkienish note, I'm sure that a bow given to Legolas by Galadriel herself would be somewhat magical & would probably have very few limitations (realisticly).

Boromir88 · 10-29-2004, 04:28 AM

Estel, not JUST the bow, we also know Legolas has an ability to just replenish arrows in his quiver, so they too are magical. I wonder if they also defy the law of gravity, lol.

gorthaur_cruel · 10-29-2004, 04:41 AM

Well, yes. There's that.

But I still don't understand why they moved Saruman to the top of Orthanc as opposed to his balcony, as in the book. I can think of several reasons why Saruman would not talk to them from the top of Orthanc; none as to why he would.

Elianna · 10-29-2004, 07:25 PM

I made the physics calculations and Lego couldn't shoot an arrow to the top of Orthanc. (Even using the amazing 150 lbs. draw strength of his spiffy Lothlórien bow.) The arrow couldn't be able to withstand the amazing amount of acceleration needed to get it to the top. (Even notched with the spiffy flint only found in the Silverlode.)

So we return to: Why on top of Orthanc? The balcony makes so much more sense...

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-29-2004, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elianna

So we return to: Why on top of Orthanc?

Presumably for reasons of dramatic effect, courtesy of artistic licence.

As The Only Real Estel impied, in a world where Orcs, Elves, Dwarves and Elephant-sized spiders exist, why shouldn't an arrow defy gravity in such a manner?

Boromir88 · 10-29-2004, 08:28 PM

Elianna, also, you have to imagine Saruman would deflect the arrow, like Gandalf did when Legolas shot at him

.

I have no idea why Saruman is on the top of Orthanc, all I can think of is PJ did it because he can

.

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-29-2004, 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir888

Elianna, also, you have to imagine Saruman would deflect the arrow, like Gandalf did when Legolas shot at him

Er. Isn't he dead by this point?

Encaitare · 10-29-2004, 09:13 PM

Wait a second -- he's at the top of Orthanc? As in the same place where he did those crazy magic tricks to make the avalanche on Caradhras?

That's bogus. Doesn't he know he's got a nifty balcony for the express purpose of berating unwanted visitors?

Imladris · 10-29-2004, 10:12 PM

Does it really matter where Saruman talks to them just as long as he talks to them?

gorthaur_cruel · 10-29-2004, 10:18 PM

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Wait a second -- he's at the top of Orthanc? As in the same place where he did those crazy magic tricks to make the avalanche on Caradhras?

Judging by everything from the trailers and screenshots, yes.

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Does it really matter where Saruman talks to them just as long as he talks to them?

No, but I'm just curious. I think this is one of those moments where PJ changed the book for no reason at all. It's not like having him talk from the top of Orthanc will impress anybody more than talking from the balcony. In fact, it actually does matter, in a way. In addition to Legolas' arrow not reaching Wormtongue, how are they supposed to hear the infamous voice of Saruman?

Boromir88 · 10-30-2004, 05:34 AM

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Er. Isn't he dead by this point?

SpM, lol yes, it would appear as if I had a mindlapse there for a moment, thanks for catching it, lol

.

Imladris, ya, I really don't see the big deal about having Saruman talk on the top, or from the balcony. I'm more interested to see how the Tolkienist Chris Lee portrays Saruman's voice. Whether it be the powerful, commanding Saruman, or the "honeyed" beggar Saruman.

gorthaur:

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No, but I'm just curious. I think this is one of those moments where PJ changed the book for no reason at all. It's not like having him talk from the top of Orthanc will impress anybody more than talking from the balcony. In fact, it actually does matter, in a way. In addition to Legolas' arrow not reaching Wormtongue, how are they supposed to hear the infamous voice of Saruman?

It is an "unnecessary" change, but I don't see the relevance on where Saruman speaks from. Even if Legolas' arrow can't reach Wormtongue (mathematically), there have been stranger things in Tolkien, duh duh duh. For instance, talking swords. Point I'm trying to make, is, it's not a big deal thing that Saruman will speak from the top, and not the balcony. (Atleast in my opinion).

Encaitare · 10-30-2004, 08:37 PM

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In addition to Legolas' arrow not reaching Wormtongue, how are they supposed to hear the infamous voice of Saruman?

My question exactly. So Orthanc is supposed to be around 170 yards tall -- not particularly huge for a tower, but an awfully long distance for holding a conversation. He'll have to shout down at them if he wants to be heard!

Nuindacilien · 10-31-2004, 12:52 PM

So the scouring isn't going to be in the EE? I heard somewhere that it was. Hm. I guess we'll just have to wait.
I guess that way of killing Saruman is okay. It's a little weird, though. PJ really should have put the Scouring in there. I was looking forward to that and HoH!

~Nuindacilien

**The Saucepan Man** · 10-31-2004, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nuindacilien

So the scouring isn't going to be in the EE? I heard somewhere that it was.

No. I am pretty sure that it was never filmed (other than for the vision that Frodo saw in Galadriel's Mirror). In any event, if the additional 50 minutes of material in the EE was to include the Scouring, then there would be a lot less room for the other material that we all eagerly anticipate.

Boromir88 · 10-31-2004, 01:42 PM

Well said SpM, we would all have liked to see the Scouring. But I feel, like the Voice of Saruman chapter is a necessity (since he was extint in the original), also included will be Gandalf's encounter with the WK, the HOH scenes (which I would just love to see Eowyn happy after getting denied), as well as the Mouth of Sauron, (on a PJ moment, Aragorn comes and decapitates Gothmog)-seems to be a recurring theme, first the little orc in Moria, then Lurtz, and now Gothmog?

Nuindacilien · 10-31-2004, 03:41 PM

Sounds interesting.

I also heard that PJ will be making an appearance as one of the Men from the black ships (I can't recall their name at the moment

). That should be funny. And he also gets killed by Legolas, I think.

That would be a bit funny, though, to see him in the movie.

~Nuindacilien

Boromir88 · 10-31-2004, 03:47 PM

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Sounds interesting. I also heard that PJ will be making an appearance as one of the Men from the black ships (I can't recall their name at the moment ). That should be funny. And he also gets killed by Legolas, I think. That would be a bit funny, though, to see him in the movie.

Nuin, yes PJ does make cameo appearances in the LOTR movies. In FOTR he was the man chomping on the carrot in Bree, TTT, one of the soldiers from Rohan throwing rocks. In fact, in you do get to see him in the original ROTK as a cameo, he was the corsair I haven't heard that he will get killed by Legolas, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Essex · 11-01-2004, 04:32 AM

listening to the directors' commentary on the two towers dvd, I believe pj mentions that they had to nick a bit of saruman on the balcony from the voice of sarumans scenes, to use in the bit where we see isengard flooded, as pj didn't realise he would have a flooding scene, and it was too late to use christopher lee in pickups.

In other words, I think saruman will be on the balcony.

PS on a tangent regarding the commentary, isn't Phillipa Boyens a bitter woman in the controversy she has helped cause with the changes to TT? At least Fran Walsh admits they've made some drastic changes that tolkienists won't like, but PB keeps going on about how they were neccesarry. especially in the helms deep scene where we see eomer instead of erkenbrand. she was insinuating that that change was worse than the faramir changes but no one really moaned about it!

Hillarious!

Boromir88 · 11-01-2004, 09:30 AM

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especially in the helms deep scene where we see eomer instead of erkenbrand. she was insinuating that that change was worse than the faramir changes but no one really moaned about it! Hillarious!

Essex, that is rather funny. I wasn't bothered by them putting in Eomer, instead of Erkenbrand. I think people would be confused, who and where this Erkenbrand came from. It's just a great climatic set up, when the expelled Eomer, riding away, happens to come in the nick-of-time to save the day. It does take away from Eomer's fighting that he did at Helm's Deep, with Gimli, but I feel it was a nice set up. It just happens to be the "thrown out" nephew of Theoden who comes to save the day. That didn't bother me at all, I was bothered by the change in Faramir, and don't see how it was necessary to take the ring to Osgiliath, but I can still live with it

.

Nuindacilien · 11-01-2004, 12:17 PM

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Originally Posted by Boromir88

Nuin, yes PJ does make cameo appearances in the LOTR movies. In FOTR he was the man chomping on the carrot in Bree, TTT, one of the soldiers from Rohan throwing rocks. In fact, in you do get to see him in the original ROTK as a cameo, he was the corsair I haven't heard that he will get killed by Legolas, but I wouldn't be surprised if he did.

Well, I guess I need to pay more attention! I never noticed him in there. Thanks for telling me, though. I'll be sure to look for him!

The changes that were made didn't really bother me that much. What upset me the most was the changes in FOTR. I actually saw the movie before I read the books, and when I finished reading FOTR, I was surprised that Boromir had already been killed, and that Merry and Pippin were taken away. It doesn't bother me now, but I was just surprised when I first finished the book.

~Nuindacilien

The Only Real Estel · 11-01-2004, 09:47 PM

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on a PJ moment, Aragorn comes and decapitates Gothmog

Don't know whether it's been mentioned already or not, but it seems as if Aragorn kills the Mouth of Sauron as well. I'm not liking that idea, so I'm still hoping there will be no such thing...

Elmo · 03-14-2007, 01:48 PM

I was quite sickened by Legolas' murder of Grima. It just seemed so cold blooded. Was Grima much of a threat at the time to them, I don't know but something about it made me slightly uncomfortable.

Elfchick7 · 04-03-2007, 09:17 PM

I actually felt that Saruman's end was a little too gruesome. Then again, that is just PJ's style. Oddly, I don't recall Grima's death at all. I guess it's time to pull out the good ol' extended edition. Yay! *does a happy jig*

jezebelus · 04-04-2007, 04:55 AM

They should show that scene in the movie. I mean Saruman't death. The last scene I remember was on his tower while tree-man were destroying his empire.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-05-2007, 04:33 PM

I have the EE RotK and heres how it goes...

Gandalf comes to Isengaurd for info and Saurman pulls out the Palantir and Wormtounge comes up and Theoden convinces him to come down and so Grima starts to, then Saurman smacks him, Grima falls pulls his dagger from the sheath stabs Saurman in the back 3 times Legolas shoots him with his bow and arrow, in the heart, Saurman falls onto his machinery, and so ends Saurman.

Hope this helps.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-05-2007, 04:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Only Real Estel

Don't know whether it's been mentioned already or not, but it seems as if Aragorn kills the Mouth of Sauron as well. I'm not liking that idea, so I'm still hoping there will be no such thing...

Yes he does. He cuts off his head.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-05-2007, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

Well, yes. There's that.

But I still don't understand why they moved Saruman to the top of Orthanc as opposed to his balcony, as in the book. I can think of several reasons why Saruman would not talk to them from the top of Orthanc; none as to why he would.

So he could fall.

sallkid · 08-05-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gorthaur_cruel

Really? Where'd you hear that? I sure haven't heard that before...
BTW, how can you shoot an arrow all the way up to the top of Orthanc, which is presumably around 300m high? Unless Elves have EXTREME power as well as accuracy, surely it won't reach that high before coming back down.

Just read this post and it reminded me of this old chestnut...

That's why Legolas can fire an arrow to the top of orthanc, single handedly kill a mumak and outdrink a dwarf (the drinking annoyed me the most, i prefer my elves with delicate constitutions)

As for the death of Grima, it just didn't occur to me until now that it shouldn't have been legolas who killed him, now it has and it's gnawing at me.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-05-2007, 06:09 PM

Did I help?

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-05-2007, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Well said SpM, we would all have liked to see the Scouring. But I feel, like the Voice of Saruman chapter is a necessity (since he was extint in the original), also included will be Gandalf's encounter with the WK, the HOH scenes (which I would just love to see Eowyn happy after getting denied), as well as the Mouth of Sauron, (on a PJ moment, Aragorn comes and decapitates Gothmog)-seems to be a recurring theme, first the little orc in Moria, then Lurtz, and now Gothmog?

Aragorn did not kill Gothmog, Eowyn did.

Sir Kohran · 08-05-2007, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGreatElvenWarrior

Aragorn did not kill Gothmog, Eowyn did.

No, Eowyn wounds him, and later he comes after her when she's weak from the fight with the Witch King, but Aragorn and Gimli come in just in time to finish him off.

Eomer of the Rohirrim · 08-06-2007, 05:03 AM

TGEW, everyone knows. It's an old film.

TheGreatElvenWarrior · 08-06-2007, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kohran

No, Eowyn wounds him, and later he comes after her when she's weak from the fight with the Witch King, but Aragorn and Gimli come in just in time to finish him off.

Oops, I keep on getting these things wrong sounds like its time to watch the movies again... YAY!!!!!!

Celegost · 09-04-2007, 08:25 AM

Has anyone actually considered that these are probably the reasons why it is a deleted scene??

10-29-2004, 07:25 PM	#44
Elianna Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Ad finem itineris Posts: 384	I made the physics calculations and Lego couldn't shoot an arrow to the top of Orthanc. (Even using the amazing 150 lbs. draw strength of his spiffy Lothlórien bow.) The arrow couldn't be able to withstand the amazing amount of acceleration needed to get it to the top. (Even notched with the spiffy flint only found in the Silverlode.) So we return to: Why on top of Orthanc? The balcony makes so much more sense... __________________ Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya.

10-29-2004, 10:12 PM	#49
Imladris Tears of the Phoenix Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Putting dimes in the jukebox baby. Posts: 1,453	Does it really matter where Saruman talks to them just as long as he talks to them? __________________ I'm sorry it wasn't a unicorn. It would have been nice to have unicorns. I'm your huckleberry.

10-31-2004, 12:52 PM	#53
Nuindacilien Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 12	So the scouring isn't going to be in the EE? I heard somewhere that it was. Hm. I guess we'll just have to wait. I guess that way of killing Saruman is okay. It's a little weird, though. PJ really should have put the Scouring in there. I was looking forward to that and HoH! ~Nuindacilien __________________ I have nothing profound to say here, so I'll just ramble on for a bit.....

10-31-2004, 01:42 PM	#55
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,519	Humango spoiler warning Well said SpM, we would all have liked to see the Scouring. But I feel, like the Voice of Saruman chapter is a necessity (since he was extint in the original), also included will be Gandalf's encounter with the WK, the HOH scenes (which I would just love to see Eowyn happy after getting denied), as well as the Mouth of Sauron, (on a PJ moment, Aragorn comes and decapitates Gothmog)-seems to be a recurring theme, first the little orc in Moria, then Lurtz, and now Gothmog?

10-31-2004, 03:41 PM	#56
Nuindacilien Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Mirkwood Posts: 12	Kind-of spoiler.... Sounds interesting. I also heard that PJ will be making an appearance as one of the Men from the black ships (I can't recall their name at the moment ). That should be funny. And he also gets killed by Legolas, I think. That would be a bit funny, though, to see him in the movie. ~Nuindacilien __________________ I have nothing profound to say here, so I'll just ramble on for a bit.....

10-29-2004, 04:28 AM	#42
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,519	Estel, not JUST the bow, we also know Legolas has an ability to just replenish arrows in his quiver, so they too are magical. I wonder if they also defy the law of gravity, lol.

10-29-2004, 04:41 AM	#43
gorthaur_cruel Haunting Spirit Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 92	Well, yes. There's that. But I still don't understand why they moved Saruman to the top of Orthanc as opposed to his balcony, as in the book. I can think of several reasons why Saruman would not talk to them from the top of Orthanc; none as to why he would.

10-29-2004, 08:28 PM	#46
Boromir88 Laconic Loreman Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: USA Posts: 7,519	Elianna, also, you have to imagine Saruman would deflect the arrow, like Gandalf did when Legolas shot at him . I have no idea why Saruman is on the top of Orthanc, all I can think of is PJ did it because he can .

10-29-2004, 09:13 PM	#48
Encaitare Bittersweet Symphony Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: On the jolly starship Enterprise Posts: 1,814	Wait a second -- he's at the top of Orthanc? As in the same place where he did those crazy magic tricks to make the avalanche on Caradhras? That's bogus. Doesn't he know he's got a nifty balcony for the express purpose of berating unwanted visitors?

11-01-2004, 04:32 AM	#58
Essex Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Essex, England Posts: 886	listening to the directors' commentary on the two towers dvd, I believe pj mentions that they had to nick a bit of saruman on the balcony from the voice of sarumans scenes, to use in the bit where we see isengard flooded, as pj didn't realise he would have a flooding scene, and it was too late to use christopher lee in pickups. In other words, I think saruman will be on the balcony. PS on a tangent regarding the commentary, isn't Phillipa Boyens a bitter woman in the controversy she has helped cause with the changes to TT? At least Fran Walsh admits they've made some drastic changes that tolkienists won't like, but PB keeps going on about how they were neccesarry. especially in the helms deep scene where we see eomer instead of erkenbrand. she was insinuating that that change was worse than the faramir changes but no one really moaned about it! Hillarious!

03-14-2007, 01:48 PM	#62
Elmo Pittodrie Poltergeist Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again Posts: 633	I was quite sickened by Legolas' murder of Grima. It just seemed so cold blooded. Was Grima much of a threat at the time to them, I don't know but something about it made me slightly uncomfortable. __________________ As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. Last edited by hewhoarisesinmight; 03-14-2007 at 01:55 PM.

04-03-2007, 09:17 PM	#63
Elfchick7 Wight Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In the Greenwood Posts: 201	I actually felt that Saruman's end was a little too gruesome. Then again, that is just PJ's style. Oddly, I don't recall Grima's death at all. I guess it's time to pull out the good ol' extended edition. Yay! does a happy jig __________________ "Yesterday is history. Tommorow is a mystery. Today is a gift from God. That's why it's called the PRESENT!"

04-04-2007, 04:55 AM	#64
jezebelus Newly Deceased Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4	They should show that scene in the movie. I mean Saruman't death. The last scene I remember was on his tower while tree-man were destroying his empire. __________________ diseasesarchive.com

08-05-2007, 04:33 PM	#65
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Ee I have the EE RotK and heres how it goes... Gandalf comes to Isengaurd for info and Saurman pulls out the Palantir and Wormtounge comes up and Theoden convinces him to come down and so Grima starts to, then Saurman smacks him, Grima falls pulls his dagger from the sheath stabs Saurman in the back 3 times Legolas shoots him with his bow and arrow, in the heart, Saurman falls onto his machinery, and so ends Saurman. Hope this helps. __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

08-05-2007, 06:09 PM	#69
TheGreatElvenWarrior Mighty Quill Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Walking off to look for America Posts: 2,230	Did I help? __________________ The Party Doesn't Start Until You're Dead.

08-06-2007, 05:03 AM	#72
Eomer of the Rohirrim Auspicious Wraith Join Date: May 2002 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 4,859	TGEW, everyone knows. It's an old film. __________________ Los Ingobernables de Harlond

09-04-2007, 08:25 AM	#74
Celegost Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hobbiton Posts: 23	Has anyone actually considered that these are probably the reasons why it is a deleted scene?? __________________ From the ashes a fire shall be woken, A light from the shadows shall spring; Renewed shall be blade that was broken, The crownless again shall be king.