Admin thread for WWXXXV: Werewolves among the Wolf-men

[Brinniel]

A little more talking this time:

Originally Posted by Brinn

So, Shasta was Saeros. Like the narration says, I'm not sure what that means. Whose side was he on? Was he a cobbler maybe?

Our main problem now is the wolves are still hidden. I'm still suspicious of tgwbs, but part of me is not so sure... Any thoughts?

Originally Posted by Mac

Let me see...

1. Who's a wolf

Rikae ~ wildly throws suspicion in #20, then goes elegantly along the consensus of killing Shasta: suspicious

Nogrod ~ his switch to tgwbs irks me, not because tgwbs seems innocent, but because this move doesn't fit with what Nogrod said before (though he said he might vote tgwbs). Otherwise, he looks good to me.

Lhuna ~ makes so much sense, it almost hurts. When I was a wolf with her, she was more shy. Feels like an ordo, but I'm not too sure yet. She could still go either way.

Gil ~ as strange as ever. I get an innocent feel from him, though.

tgwbs ~ #21: roleplay and accusations based on roleplay
#22: his vote is bad enough, but the reasoning behind it is even worse (putting me in a box with Isabell and xyzzy). Then again, tgwbs usually doesn't care a lot about his day one vote.

a little suspicious:
tgwbs, Rikae

neutral:
Lhuna, Nogrod, Gil


2. Who's a good wolf kill and should be protected (assuming the wolves will try to kill a good player who is not yet dangerous to them, which many wolves seem to do in night 2)

Rikae ~ if not a wolf, then a possible victim, because, apart from #20, she only really goes after Shasta

Nogrod ~ in a village this silent, killing Nogrod would be most unsportsmanlike.

Mac ~ this is difficult to judge for me. He, once more, managed to get a few people to be suspicious of him, which is very good for him. I'm not sure whether he might be a good kill because he leaves no useful tracks, or maybe seemed giftedish anywhere.

Brinn ~ careful in the beginning, but very productive later on. It would be mean by the wolves to kill her so early once more, especially on her birthday. Her early carefulness might have been interpreted as gifted, but her later behaviour does not stand out in this respect.

Lhuna ~ productive and helpful. Might be killed because she doesn't leave a track towards a wolf, since she voted Mac.

Gil ~ I've never, ever seen a wolf kill Gil.

tgwbs ~ leaves no tracks at all, but is also likely to get a decent share of suspicion on Day Two.

Good kills maybe
Rikae, Lhuna

Undecided about
Mac, Brinn

Bad kills
Nogrod, Gil, tgwbs

Suggestions?

Another idea: some (including me, to be honest) were a little upset about the behaviour of xyzzy and Isabellkya. Might a wolf be so annoyed to kill one of them? It would be a kill which at least does not leave any trails. I could imagine that some could do this. But then, even if this was the case, the two probably aren't worth to be protected, as mean as it may sound...

Originally Posted by Brinn

So right now, I still suspect tgwbs the most. Nogrod is a bit suspicious to me as well, but he is always a tough one to figure out. Rikae I'm still not sure about, but your suspicions make sense, so I will watch out for her. Lhuna I have no clue...I am not aware of her normal playing style yet.

Of our two silent ones, Izzy finally did appear after the deadline, so I think she may be around when the Day starts. xyzzy is still a question. If the wolves kill one of them (which is very possible), I think it will be Izzy. xyzzy has a better chance of getting lynched tomorrow if he's a no-show again.

Of those who have posted, I think Lhuna would be the wolves' most likely choice because as you said, she leaves no tracks. Nor is she gathering any suspicion.

Mithalwen is also a possibly if the wolves are stuck, but I doubt it, as it wouldn't exactly be very nice of them.

I think, unless they are big risk-takers, it is more likely the wolves will take down someone who leaves little tracks than someone they think is gifted. After all, it is always hard to tell who the gifteds are after only one Day.

Originally Posted by Mac

I don't know whom to protect. Lhuna looks like an obvious choice, but a) I have a feeling the wolves won't choose her and b) I've got a vague fuzzy feeling about her.

I won't protect Isabell, xyzzy or Mith.
I don't really like to protect Nogrod, Gil or Lhuna.
I can't protect tgwbs if you hunt him. Otherwise he might be a candidate, because if he's innocent, he's a good pick.
I could protect Rikae, more or less for the same reason.
I could go safe and protect myself.

Originally Posted by Brinn

It's a tough choice. I say protect who you think will most likely be killed (Rikae or Lhuna in my opinion). We have no idea who is Nienor, so everyone is a candidate. If you protect the person who is attacked and it is Nienor, you saved two lives. If that protected person is attacked and is just an ordinary innocent, you still saved a life.

I have to submit my choice to Legate soon. In objections for me going after tgwbs?

Originally Posted by Mac

Alright, you take tgwbs, I'll take Rikae.

[Brinniel]

More:

Originally Posted by Brinn

I just knew xyzzy would be innocent, partially due to meta-reasons, I admit. With our small number and two wolves, Legate wouldn't dare place someone unreliable like xyzzy with the position of wolf (especially after what happened last time he was a wolf).

Anyways, you did manage to save Rikae's life. Congratulations.

Not to mention, it's nice to know we have another known innocent out there...

So who could be our wolves?

Obviously, I'm still set on tgwbs. But I think if he's not one, then Nogrod's got to be. I really have no idea where the other wolf is hiding. Maybe I should take a better look at Lhuna...

What do you think?
Here's something interesting:

I find it odd that he interprets the narration to think that Turin is one of the quiet ones. Either Nogrod is sorely mistaken, or he knows something...

And I'm still wondering:

Who is Nienor? Now, this is something that is bugging me, most likely because my fate is tied to her's, which adds a lot more tension to each day. I still have no idea, but possible candidates are:

Nogrod: For his comment above. Plus, if Nienor indeed is the Seer, they are known to seem suspicious, as he is acting.

Lhuna: After voting for you yesterday, she completely drops suspicion without explanation. Now that I look at it, Lhuna is starting to look more and more likely...

Originally Posted by Mac

Thanks! It was so funny to see how Nogrod was so sure he had been protected.

I have a strong feeling that Lhuna is innocent. You have a good point about her being Nienor. Actually, before she even posted, I thought that, as a mod, I would probably choose her for this role. For some reason, it seems like a very fitting role for her.

This leaves Nogrod, tgwbs, Mith, Gil and Izzy.

Of the latter three, one cannot say much. I'll give them the benefit of doubt and will concentrate on Nogrod and Guy toNight. I'm very sure that one of the two is evil. It's not impossible that both are.

Nogrod's being very odd in general in this game, but I cannot think that he behaves like this just because he has a special role - except maybe that of a cobbler, which would explain the amount of misinformation that he spreads.

Originally Posted by Brinn

So, it's really important that if I die toNight, I take down a wolf. tgwbs and Nogrod are our best choices, and I agree there is a possibility it could be both, though I slightly doubt it. But if one is innocent, the other has just got to be guilty.

Also, knowing there's a thief out there, I can't help but wonder how many special roles there really are...

Originally Posted by Brinn

I just remembered...Nogrod said that he was planning to play differently in this game. So, you're right...his strange behaviour doesn't especially mean a special role. So now I'm really not sure what to think about him..

tgwbs is a tough one...sometimes I feel so sure he's guilty, and other times I second-guess myself. After all, I'm usually very misled when I pursue someone. But the thing is, other than him and Nogrod, I don't really have any suspects. I'm sure there's a wolf among Lhuna, Mithalwen, Gil-Galad, and Izzy, but I have no idea who.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Nogrod's strange behaviour could mean wolvery, or it could just be his new experiment. I'm still suspicious of him, but I just don't know...

I feel almost a bit ridiculous choosing tgwbs again since he has been my choice since Day 1...I'd feel terrible if I was wrong. But then again, I really don't know who else to go for; he's my top suspect, and I just have to go with my gut.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Mac in a PM to Brinn

Nogrod's being very odd in general in this game, but I cannot think that he behaves like this just because he has a special role - except maybe that of a cobbler, which would explain the amount of misinformation that he spreads.

Originally Posted by Briin in a PM to Mac

Nogrod's strange behaviour could mean wolvery, or it could just be his new experiment. I'm still suspicious of him, but I just don't know...

Now where did these come from?

"Nogrod's being very odd in general in this game"?
Like my normal innocent self who wishes to turn every stone and dislikes those who don't take part but sneak in the shadows...

"the amount of misinformation that he spreads"?
Please Macalaure explain this to me as well...

"Nogrod's strange behaviour could mean wolvery, or it could just be his new experiment."?
Yes I said I'd like to play differently (meaning I would do all the "homework" I'm used to do when I have time but would have only posted highly considered one-liners) but that all went away with the RPG-style decision as I thought it was enough to adjust to one basic difference...

But please, I would like to learn new things... why did you felt I was different and thence suspicious as to myself I thought I was playing my normal innocent way?

[Brinniel]

A lot more:

Originally Posted by Brinn

Legate sure said it for me. *curses again* Though I admit, his last few posts made me think him less guilty. A wolf would've given up and not say anything. We have to get a wolf toMorrow, we just have to. At least his posts will be helpful to us...

Do you think it's possible Mithalwen is Nienor? She seemed so certain of Noggie's innocence...

And who on earth are our wolves? I really want to take a closer look at Izzy, she seems pretty suspicious right now. What to do, what to do... I need to go look at Nogrod's posts and think about this.

On a different note, I'm rather pleased I survived past Day 3. Finally! *prances around in a field of daisies*

Yeah, I was pretty happy about finally breaking my curse...

Originally Posted by Brinn

I took a quick look at Nogrod's posts, and I'm not sure how useful he will be. I mean, first he speculates that I'm either a sleeper, or I'm a seer, which is completely off. At the end of the Day, he shares his thoughts, thinking you and Rikae likely to be wolves, and we know both of you aren't. If the village heeds his words, you might be in for some trouble tomorrow...

These are the only things I can get from Nogrod:

-The possibility of Androg (which you mentioned something similar last Night)
-the possible innocence of tgwbs
-the possible guilt of Lhuna
-the very likely chance that there are wolves among the quiet ones

Here are my thoughts:

Lhuna: It's hard to tell, but I still just can't see wolvishness in her. But at the same time...she doesn't seem like an ordinary. I think it more likely she's Angrog/thief/whatever, but knowing me, I could be totally wrong.

Mithalwen: I find it strange that an ordinary Innocent would be so confident of someone's innocence. One option is that she is Nienor, a seer who dreamt of Nogrod. Or, she is a wolf who's trying to avoid suspicion by defending someone she knows is innocent (though I'd think her smart enough to know this could easily backfire). Or, I'm just putting too much into this and she really is just an ordinary.

tgwbs: I've been so suspicious of him, but now I'm beginning to doubt myself. Some of his arguments make great sense. But then again...I just don't know.

Gil-Galad: I have no idea what to think. Part of me thinks Legate wouldn't give him such a role knowing he'd be away for multiple days, but I can't base these things off meta-reasons. I did notice that he posted on a thread recently, so hopefully he will be back toMorrow.

Izzy: Her firsts posts have little content, she accuses Rikae, then accuses you of being a silent one, and then is quick to jump on the Nogrod bandwagon. Remember, Nogrod said to look at the third voter, and I think there's a chance she cross-posted and didn't see that comment. And if she is a clumsy wolf, then this action of her's isn't surprising. Right now, she's my highest suspect.

Originally Posted by Mac

I will later take another look at Lhuna, Izzy and Mith. I spent quite some time yesterday looking at tgwbs, and I don't see him very guilty.

A lot of meta-reasoning: Now, why did the wolves miss their kill? Did Androg protect somebody and Legate had fun with a slightly misleading narration? Otherwise, the wolves simply failed to kill. Apart from Gil and Izzy (who was evil in her recent first game, I think), I couldn't imagine that anybody would just forget to send it (why does Nogrod feel so special concerning this?)! But in no way these two are our two wolves. Problems with the forum software? Legate's profile doesn't give an Email address or something, so if the pm system was down, I actually wouldn't know how to contact him. Or maybe there was simply a misunderstanding between the wolves (wolf a: you go send the kill; wolf b: ok, you send the kill...). I'm extremely confused.

Is that a slip of Androg? Did she protect someone at night and was dissatisfied with the ambiguous narration?

Originally Posted by Brinn

On revealing: As the Days continue, I'm sure more pressure will be put on us Gifteds, so I thought I should just mention this. I'm not real keen on revealing since I don't know much, and since I wouldn't reveal you, I could only expose Rikae of her innocence. I would only reveal if things looked real bad for me during the Day and I knew I would be a goner otherwise before the Day was over. Actually when I think about it, if I were forced to reveal it wouldn't have to be so terrible. If the thief can protect and didn't protect me the night before, I'd have an extra Day. And assuming Nienor isn't attacked, she could reveal the next Day so that she could be protected when I die. Of course, there are so many other factors that could make that go wrong. Like I said, I don't intend to reveal unless I have no other choice.

Originally Posted by Mac

Jay isn't impossible. Last I looked I found him more innocent. If he isn't, he's playing marvelously, I think, so I will look elsewhere first. I can't judge Gil before he hasn't contributed something again. I'd consider voting him in case he doesn't.

I just took a new look at Lhuna and I still don't see her suspicious, as much as I tried. One thing caught my eye:

If she's evil, then this is an interesting statement. Why would a wolf so openly, and so coolly, give away their nightly train of thought? Sure, some would, but is Lhuna such a pokerface?

On revealing:
If we reveal, we maybe should reveal as a whole. I mean, after all, I have no special power worth of hiding anymore. Unless you and Nienor get killed, we will have 3 known innocents and 4 unknowns, which isn't all that bad (I doubt the wolves will kill me, or Rikae again (unless they also noticed that possible slip)). Unless one of us is in peril, I think it will be best to keep hiding for another day. Tomorrow will be very interesting even this way. Once we reveal, we will then go down one by one, one way or the other, but our chances to pick the wolf from the remaining four or three (without Nienor) aren't bad.

Originally Posted by Brinn

I thought about that. The only problem with that is if we end up lynching the thief or they die toNight, you will be our protector once again and exposed, the wolves wouldn't hesitate to kill you. I guess it'd still give Nienor and me an extra Day, but we'd most definitely end up going down in one blow.

On who to pick it's a tough choice. I'm not sure Izzy's our wolf, but it just has to either be her or Gil and I don't know anything about him. I just don't feel that a wolfish Mith would pursue defending someone so strongly. If she's innocent, I think there's a good chance the wolves will attack her, so hopefully this thief will protect her. I don't really want to not take the opportunity to hunt a possible wolf...the village needs it. But a three innocent kill would be brutal; if we all died toNight you guys would have to get the next lynchee right or it's over. Though, when I think about it, we'd fall in the same situation even with a two innocent kill, for it'd be over after the next Night if a kill isn't protected or missed. The advantage if three of us are killed is that it should at least be easier for you guys to seek out the wolves.

Originally Posted by Mac

Isabellkya

In her only one real contribution she tries to turn the focus on the vocal ones, possibly in order to escape lynching herself. It's quite bad, but other than that, I think she sounds more inexperienced than evil.
Then, later, she noticed that Nogrod and Rikae didn't mention each other much. The reasoning of her vote is not suspicious, I think. The placement might be.

Then again, one of the wolves is probably a quiet one...

Mithalwen

All she does is defend Nogrod. Sure, a wolf might do that, I've done it before, too, but it basically is her only point, which she iterates again and again. The way she fears Nogrod to be a gifted makes me think of, like you said already, Nienor, pretty strongly even.

Since Gil would pretty much be a shot into the dark, I would hunt Isabellkya. Or, if you're really sure about Mith and unsure about everybody else, you could hunt her and minimise our losses.

Originally Posted by Brinn

I don't think the no-kill last Night was strategic; it was most likely a miscommunication, and I doubt that happen between two active members. The wolves are most likely one quiet and one active, but I can't be sure.

Also, if I die and take down an innocent, you probably should consider revealing toMorrow...because then they won't suspect you or Rikae.

Another thing: I think there's a chance either Lhuna or tgwbs is our thief, so keep an eye out on them.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Brinn

Maybe these wolves aren't as clumsy as we thought. And I was so confident this time! And indeed, if Gil doesn't turn out to be a wolf, then these wolves are cunning to make us think the quiets are the ones. Now I'm beginning to think that's more possible than anything...

I'm not sure what to do...if Nienor and me die toNight and I take down an innocent, the game's over and we lose. But with the lack of kills thus far, I don't know. Cripes, I wish I knew who was protected.

Gah! I'm so frustrated right now! If Izzy was our wolf, we would've had it in the bag. But now I know nothing.

This one's long, but I thought I should leave most of it in since you didn't get to hear from me in the Day:

Originally Posted by Brinn

I've been thinking things over very carefully. I've come to realise now with only seven of us alive, two are wolves, and four are gifteds...which means there's only one ordinary left. If there finally is a wolf-kill toNight (and I think there will be), the chances that a Gifted will be hit is extremely likely, and I won't be surprised if it's Nienor and I that go down...hopefully Androg will protect one of us. If it has to be a gifted, I would prefer to see Androg go. That way, we can finally know his identity, and you could get your ability back. Then again, we'll never know who he protected. But ideally, it'd be great if the ordinary was attacked...then all the Gifteds could reveal at once and we could easily pick out our wolves....but that's not likely to happen.

Anyways, I did something similar to what you did on the thread and paired all our unknowns up:

tgwbs and Lhuna:

Day 1-

-Lhuna finds tgwbs’s vote hasty and safe

Day 2-

-Lhuna suggests Nogrod and tgwbs could be Beleg and Turin or two wolves, but is not sure
-tgwbs thinks there is a possible wolf in the Rikae-Lhuna-Mithalwen-Brinn group
-tgwbs agrees with Rikae on her suspicious thoughts of Lhuna; he does not trust her for debating the gifteds
-Lhuna lowers her suspicion of tgwbs and finds his observations sensible

Day 3-

-Lhuna is uncomfortable with the debate between tgwbs and Nogrod; she is certain one of them is a wolf
-tgwbs doesn’t think a wolf-Lhuna would vote for Nogrod today

Day 4-

-Lhuna finds tgwbs to be innocent from his vote yesterday; she says he seemed too sincere and noisy to be guilty
-tgwbs is unsure about Lhuna


Mithalwen and tgwbs:

Day 1- no mention of each other

Day 2-

-tgwbs thinks a wolf in the Rikae-Lhuna-Mith-Brinn group
-tgwbs doesn’t know about Mith because she’s said too little
-Mith says that tgwbs sets off her alarms

Day 3-

-tgwbs doesn’t think a wolf-Mith would defend Nogrod so strongly; thinks she’s innocent

Day 4-

-tgwbs suspects Mith for defending Nogrod but not voting early to help save him, for jumping on Brinn for suggesting she’s suspicious if Nogrod’s innocent, for keeping a presence but saying little, and for her attempting to divert suspicion to Gil. He votes for Mith.
-Mith is uneasy about tgwbs


Gil-Galad and tgwbs:

Day 1-

-Gil finds tgwbs’s vote for xyzzy, who had said nothing, strange

Day 2-

-tgwbs says he can’t decide on Gil due to his silence

Day 3-

-tgwbs thinks Gil is probably a wolf with Nogrod

Day 4-

-tgwbs finds Gil’s behaviour bizarre; thinks he might be feeling under pressure as a possible wolf
-tgwbs says Gil is his second lynch choice


Lhuna and Mithalwen:

Day 1- no mention of each other

Day 2- no mention of each other

Day 3-

-Lhuna keeps Mith in consideration for her vote, but she want to hear more from her

Day 4-

-Lhuna is worried about Mith’s confidence of Nogrod’s innocence, little contribution, and vote for Brinn
-Lhuna concludes that Mith is suspicious, but she still wants to hear more first


Lhuna and Gil-Galad:

Day 1-
-Lhuna scolds Gil for talking without saying much
-Lhuna doesn’t like Gil’s behaviour in a serious situation, but doesn’t want to judge him on this alone and says we should keep an eye on him

Day 2-

-Lhuna notes Gil’s vote and “rest in peace” comment and thinks it a possible slip. She’s unsettled about it, but decides she’ll wait before judging him.

Day 3- no mention of each other

Day 4-

-Lhuna doubts Gil’s guilt because he’s been absent, but she will still keep him in consideration.


Mithalwen and Gil-Galad:

Day 1- no mention of each other

Day 2- no mention of each other

Day 3- no mention of each other

Day 4-

-Mith wonders if Gil is using his words to make up for lost time and finds him possibly suspicious

----

Okay, if we still looked at meta and judged our wolves by that, I'd say Gil and Mith are our most likely pair because it's likely they'd miss a kill since neither one was around on Night 3. And if this no-kill was an accidental miss, it would probably make tgwbs innocent because he posted on the thread shortly (a half an hour, I think) after the deadline. But if this miss was strategic (and it could be...I mean, it's working), then that's a whole different story...

I was so sure either Izzy or Gil would be a wolf, but now I'm doubtful. I mean, though Gil's behaviour is strange, he is always like that and most often when he's lynched, he turns out innocent. Last time Gil was a wolf, he was extremely active and less suspicious. Now if he's a wolf, I think Legate would've assigned him with a reliable player, and seeing who's left, we now know that's true.

Mith is playing strangely with short posts and not saying much about anyone. Since Day 3, I assumed she was not an ordinary.

Lhuna is looking pretty suspicious to me. She seems so careful with her words. Her thoughts of others go up and down but never dramatically enough to draw attention...she's almost too sensible. Her vote yesterDay was a bit sudden and it felt like she was just jumping on the bandwagon more than anything.

And tgwbs...I just can't put a handle on him. It can so easily go either way.

Likely wolf-pairs:

Lhuna and tgwbs - Their suspicion of each other goes up and down, yet it's never enough to draw attention.

Mith and tgwbs- YesterDay's attack on Mith could come from a cunning fellow tgwbs wolf. After all, she wasn't under heavy suspicion and if she was lynched, it'd be a great cover for him.

Gil and tgwbs- Not sure, but I think it's a possibility.

Gil and Mith- Because of meta-reasons and they've managed to get away saying practically nothing about each other.

----

Who is the remaining ordinary? My guess it's either Rikae or Gil. I don't get a gifted feel from Rikae, but if Gil is innocent, I don't think he's gifted.

If Lhuna isn't a wolf, then she's probably Androg (due to Day 3's narration).

If Mith isn't a wolf, then she's probably Nienor. I can't imagine Nienor being anything but a seer, and from what little we've heard from Mith, it has been fairly accurate (and notice...she dropped any suspicion she had of me from Day 3).

If tgwbs isn't a wolf, well, he could be anything...

I like the idea of Lhuna and tgwbs as a pair. Both are very smart and play strategically. After Izzy's death, I find it quite possible the wolves are purposely playing their kills a bit clumsy just to fool us.

I'm pretty sure at least one of us gifteds will be down come this time toMorrow. Even if it's strategic, no wolf would let another no-kill go when they're so close to winning. I don't know who will be still alive, but someone will have to reveal I think if we have any chance of winning.

Originally Posted by Mac

I still think that Rikae may be Androg. I could imagine her going for me in Night 2, when there is no other clue to follow. Also, she made that one post that I think might be a slip. I don't think she is Nienor.

Mith is very concerned not to kill a gifted. If she's Nienor, she's very obvious. Or is she a wolf pretending to be Nienor in order not to be lynched?

I think the Guy is either wolf or ordo.

Lhuna could be anything.

I doubt that Gil is gifted. If he's a wolf, he must be combined with a reliable partner, i.e. Guy or Lhuna.

tgwbs and Lhuna. Heaven knows how they could miss the kill, but only judging from their behaviour, it's very possible.

tgwbs and Mith. I think tgwbs went after her yesterday too strongly and with too bad reason. It seems he really wanted us to lynch her.

The other pairings... I really don't know. They're all possible (though Mith and Gil is unlikely).

There are a few things I noticed about Lhuna yesterday:

More fully? Anyway, I didn't think this held when Nogrod brought it up and I still don't think it holds. Even if the wolves are inexpierienced, it would require a lot of luck to reject each of their kills. Especially if they're inexperienced, they might make simpler kills than the rangers foresee. There'd be the danger of the rangers overthinking the wolves plan.

It's interesting that she is also suspicious of Mith, as tgwbs. Is there a wolvish plan behind it?

These were her last words. Where did they come from? She first follows my vote and then makes such a statement?

If that lost kill hadn't been, I would suspect tgwbs and Lhuna most, now.

The upcoming kill (if there finally is one) will be interesting, and possibly very scary for us. The many scenarios (including whether Rikae is Nienor or Androg or not) make my head hurt. If we both and Rikae survive, I think we should reveal. It will be interesting to see who claims to be (fake-)Androg and (fake-)Nienor. If one of us is lost, then we will have to see.

I hope you make a good decision with your hunt. Tonight, it might be crucial.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Well, I have a 50% chance of hitting a wolf in my hunt...still I'd prefer better odds, say 75. But another thing is I could hit Nienor and that wouldn't have much effect since she would die anyway. If I protect an innocent other than Nienor and me or Nienor are attacked, the only way this game will not end is if one of the three are protected (Androg knows one innocent, so the odds are 3 out of 5, I think). If I got that wrong, it's because I'm terrible at math.

I feel like Lhuna and tgwbs just might be our wolf pair, but I can't be sure.

I wish I knew who Nienor was. If Nienor is a Seer, I'd think it would be Mith, but you're right...it's a bit too obvious. But I don't think her ordinary....and Androg? Maybe...but I'm doubtful. If she's a wolf, her most likely pairing is with Lhuna.

The problem with a Seer is that if it's not Mith, then this person has been just as misled as the rest of us. If Mith is a wolf, tgwbs is our most likely Seer as he suspected her so. But then, why didn't he dream of Nogrod then? I'm not sure...

I doubt Rikae is a Seer of any sort...she's been misled many times. The possibility that she is Androg is getting more and more likely though. And while she has been wrong, perhaps as she's our only other known innocent, we ought take heed in some of Rikae's suspicions. Lhuna, for example...she's suspected her since Day 2.

Lhuna, Lhuna...she's looking most suspicious to me. I mean, look at her votes; all innocents, but each one is easily explained. Early on, I thought her innocent, and usually it is the people I trust most that are guilty...

I think I will hunt Lhuna. Or else, I could guarantee another Day by not hunting at all, but really, I think I'd rather take a risk...

Originally Posted by Mac

Androg knows me and possibly one more (unless he protected himself last night).
You have a 50% chance to kill an innocent and end the game if Rikae is Nienor.
In the more likely case, you only have a 25% chance to kill Andróg or the one ordo left.

Same here.

Hmmm. The Guy as a seer? Not impossible, even though I don't count with a seer anymore. But it's a risk that would speak against hunting him.

Originally Posted by Brinn

Almost everyone seems to find me innocent, and I worry that makes me an easy target. At the same time, I hope that makes me an easy choice for protection (if I wasn't protected last Night). I have no clue who will be attacked, but I won't be surprised if I die, so I'll prepare myself for it. I will welcome death if I do manage to take down a wolf with me..

Lhuna, it is. And it better be right because otherwise I'm completely stumped.

Phew, that was a lot of quotes! But I hope you guys find this more helpful and interesting than boring...

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

"Nogrod's strange behaviour could mean wolvery, or it could just be his new experiment."?
Yes I said I'd like to play differently (meaning I would do all the "homework" I'm used to do when I have time but would have only posted highly considered one-liners) but that all went away with the RPG-style decision as I thought it was enough to adjust to one basic difference...

Well, that comment was basically me trying to find an explanation for Mac to why your behaviour was strange.

The main thing I found odd about you at that point was your inaccurate and repeated speculation of Turin. Mac is the one who said you were odd in general...and I cannot speak for him.

A few extra comments:

Legate- The last thing I expected was to be assigned as a gifted due to my inaccuracy of suspects and poor survival skills. I was quite honoured to be given the role of Turin, who happens to be my favourite character of all of Tolkien's works. Thanks for giving me this opportunity. I think I'm finally getting the hang of this.

A special thanks to Mac who once again was an excellent comrade to have. I don't think I could've been successful in my final hunt without his advice.

Anyways, I really want to hear from the wolves. What evil plotting (and celebrating) occurred during the Night? And was Night 3 really a missed kill or strategic?

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by Mac

Did she protect someone at night and was dissatisfied with the ambiguous narration?

Indeed.

Brinn, thanks for posting all that - it was an interesting read! I'm fairly proud of the fact I contributed to your decision to hunt Lhuna, in some small way.

But WHY, oh WHY, do you always get to be co-conspirators with my Macalaure?



BTW, congratulations on breaking that curse!

[Nogrod]

One more thing... It is a pleasure to read these Nightly discussions between you two Brinn and Macalaure. But you seem to be much more alive during the Nights than on Days... And that's the curse. And with this bunch of outlaws even more than with some other villages. This sleeping-curse was just too heavy on this village.

I mean having a good game requires people to actually play - during the Days as well! Be bold, be open or cunningly open-looking, whatever. Now you two were really playing well as I can read it from these PMs (although you made some grave misjudgements as well... but we all do them) but to the other players you were just two "non-posters" or if not quite that, very silent and careful players of whom it's very hard to say this or that... so tossing a coin it is with you, like with the one-liner -posters as well.

I think the primary reason why you all were just happy to lynch me was that I had talked so much that everyone of you had a point or another to go for me to appease your conscience... like it was basically why you picked tgwbs in this last vote - and won. So sad for tgwbs as he really tried honourably!

It's always easier to vote for someone who has actually said something when you can build a theory or get a feeling from that person. And as the Days go by you tend to grow more uneasy of lynching those who have been quiet as you feel you risk making blind vote with nothing to substantiate it with when the going gets tough ie. the numbers start looking bad. I know this as I feel the same myself.

But that kind of works against the basic idea of this game which is that people should speak and then read what others say and make their deductions based on them. The other possibility would be that people just said "Hi" and then randomly made a vote. Which one of these is a werewolf-game?

The latter would be just pure guess-work. No one could enjoy it and no game would take place... just random suspicions and random voting leading to a random results.

This is not intended as making a judgement on any person who played in this game in particular. I enjoyed this game to be sure and that's enough for me.

Maybe we should try a game of one-liners to make the point visible enough?

Originally Posted by Brinn

The main thing I found odd about you at that point was your inaccurate and repeated speculation of Turin.

Sorry but I didn't quite catch this... Wasn't I right when I said that it is believable that Turín and Nienor will go down together (like lovers in a more normal game but in an RPG you can't use that word - especially in connection with Turín and Nienor that would have been bad taste indeed) and thence we should be very careful not to lynch either of them? And while the narration said that Beleg had to wake Turín up it seemed that Turín was a "sleeper" and thence a "quiet player" and that we should pay heed to it if we wished to lynch the quiets (which basically is the strategy I strongly back). Remember I had no idea who Turín was - like no one else but Beleg had. You can'ät blame me for not guessing it right now can you?

So what other things I did say about Turín that made you so suspicious of me?

[the guy who be short]

Hello everyone. Thanks to you all; I may not have won, but this is the furthest I've got as a wolf, and I really enjoyed it. I was hoping my last posts on the last Day might make you go for Gil... It's annoying because, had that happened, I would have attacked Mac (knowing that Rikae had protected herself two nights before, I reasoned that she could definitely protect herself next night, but may not have been able to protect Mac) and so I would have won. Alack.

Special mention should go, I feel, to Nogrod. I was wondering if my posts were getting a little too heated or even bordering on the offensive; I apologise if that was so (but you know it's just a game, eh? ). In any case, I think you could have been a very considerable force in getting the wolves lynched if you had lived any longer.

Doubtless you will all wish to know about the Nightly kills, or lack thereof. No, it wasn't preplanned or a cunning scheme... that was a really bizarre idea. It was just sheer bad luck which we tried to bend to our favour. Anyway, Nightly PMs coming up.

[the guy who be short]

Simple greetings and formalities, most of which have been editted out for general consumption:

(Lhuna)
Now, about playing style. I don't know my own, actually. Good thing I haven't played with around half the players, so they don't know how I play. But since this is a kind of strict RPG-style game, there's no room for frivolity (so I can't howl during the Full Moon ), and Nogrod, for one, can't suspect me for being too serious - which is how I expect myself to be in the game.

If it's not too evil, I'd like to take advantage of the RPG style of the game by writing as though in a serious RPG. I won't go overboard so as to make them suspect me of trying to shift their attention from the Werewolf game, but just enough to show my *ehem* sincere innocence.

(Guy)
I fear, dear Lhuny, that I shall be killed. I always am. I shall try to stay alive as long as possible, but I think that in the end, it will fall upon you to cement victory.

(Lhuna)
Strangely enough, I fear I'll be killed early, too. But we shouldn't be so pessimistic. Somehow I find the small number of players encouraging.

So yes, we were hardly confident to start with... I think we did well considering.

[the guy who be short]

(Lhuna)
So for our kill, do we try to hunt for Turin or Beleg, or kill the one we think is the most dangerous player? The latter would naturally mean Nogrod, but I'm not sure it's a good idea to kill him this early. He expressed a bit of trust in me, so I guess it could serve as a bit of a cover, but it could also backfire. Also, he voted for you. I say we leave him alive for now.

Mac was under quite heavy suspicion yesterDay, and if we can push it further tomorrow we don't need to worry about him.

The person I most feel like killing toNight is Rikae. I don't know why, but there you go. I've never played with Isabellkya or xyzzy so I don't know if they are formidable foes.

Those are my thoughts for now. I'll try to read the thread more closely tonight to see if some other suitable victim will jump out at me.

(Guy)
I think it will be difficult to go after the gifteds today, so let us wait until one of them dies accidentally - by our hand, or by the village's. This means going after somebody else...

I'm not sure about Noggy. I'd quite like to see if I can get him killed - his stance on killing xyzzy is bizarre! He is also completely unpredictable so hopefully he'll be looking elsewhere tomorrow.

Brinn is a worry to me, but killing her is too dangerous.

Mac was not actually under too much suspicion. He also said he'd look at me tomorrow. I think maybe it would be better to keep him around though - I think I will eventually be lynched, and in that case, his vote today, plus his neutrality towards me, could be interpreted as wolvish. Basically, when I die, I'd like him to be lynched next day.

What I would actually quite like is to kill somebody random and unsuspecting. Rikae is a good choice, but I think Isabellkya would be even more random and confuse everybody. It might even lead them to think the wolves feel they are under no pressure, and so start looking at new people (i.e. not me!).

Either of these would make me happy, it's up to you.

(Lhuna)
Ah, my dear STAWB, how could you do this to me? My choices usually go amiss! But at least you narrowed down the list to two, and agreed with my choice. Rikae or Isabellkya, then?

I don't feel comfortable killing someone who is yet to speak. And there's the possibility that Izzy isn't gifted; otherwise it would have been hard for her to miss the Day's discussions. It's possible she had RL reasons, though.

But if you speak of random and unsuspecting kills, what better choice than Gil-galad? Seriously, though, I'm going with Rikae, much though I would like her in the game longer. I'm unable to foresee any danger in that move right now, maybe there's none.

++RIKAE

So there you go. Rikae was our first mistake. I'd have preferred Izzy as Brinn guessed. This was to be the source of much future night-time worrying for me.

[the guy who be short]

(Guy)
So yes, the Rikae thing went badly. On the plus side we've left no trail. On the minus side, the two captains now know that Rikae is an innocent. This knowledge may help us to find them. If we have a good suspicion, then killing one of them would be excellent. If not, I suppose we could go for Rikae again, although I'd prefer not to, as she thinks me innocent. It's a possiblity, of course, that she is one of the captains...

I get the feeling that at least one, possibly both, of Nogrod and Mac are gifted. Killing Nogrod would, I feel, make people lynch me - if we keep him alive long enough, people get suspicious! And Mac thinks us both innocent, good to keep around.

Therefore, while I have not yet checked for clues about who is suspicious, my two top choices at the moment are Rikae and Brinn. Reasons:

1) The captains know Rikae is innocent. Everybody trusts her. Minuses are that she is slightly suspicious of Nogrod (keeping her could help his eventual lynching) and that she doesnt suspect me. If we don't kill her, we really must kill a captain, because having two of the villagers know the innocence of 3 of the villagers is very bad for us.

2) Brinn. If I feel that she may be a captain, I'd really LOVE to lynch her. She really has no suspects except me. Now that xyzzy, who I campaigned to get lynched, has been proved to be innocent, we could kill her off and I could claim it's a set-up. I will have to check what everybody has said and see how gifted she feels...

But our main priority is to get a captain. Perhaps Mac (if analysis shows him to be captainy) after all?

See Mac? We were onto you...

(Lhuna)
I'm not really keen on going after Rikae toNight. Sure, she scares me a bit, because I think she suspects me even just a little, but we've better options.

Of all the Outlaws, Mac's the one standing out to me most as a possible Beleg.

Nogrod is playing too boldly, I think, to be gifted. But I won't put it past him to deceive the wolves in this way. If we kill him, then the Outlaws will think they really have desperate and amateur wolves among them, as Nogrod suggested. That could probably keep them off our trail. The same could be said of Mac, I suppose, to a bit lesser degree.

As for Brinn...are you sure you can manage to throw off suspicion if she is killed? But I'm not worried about her yet. She hasn't contributed much, and could be up for lynching.

Ah, but now that I think about Rikae, I think you have a point that it would be ill for us if we let her live with the Captains knowing her innocent! But wait...isn't that just the same thing as with the Seer? What matters is that the Captains don't beat us to revealing her innocence - or worse, our lycanthropy.

But I guess it's safe if one of us gets revealed, because I think we've been doing a good job hiding that we're working together.

So my choices are Nogrod and Mac. Mac then? I can't be here long, so if you don't catch me online, I'll leave the final decision to you. Then we're even.

So you see, if we had killed that night, it would probably have been Mac, and then things would have gone much better... As it happened, I had difficulties getting onto the internet again due to my sister occupying the computer. This meant I didn't get Lhuna's PM until too late and so nothing happened. Alack.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One more thing... It is a pleasure to read these Nightly discussions between you two Brinn and Macalaure. But you seem to be much more alive during the Nights than on Days... And that's the curse. And with this bunch of outlaws even more than with some other villages. This sleeping-curse was just too heavy on this village.

Well, I thought I contributed a fair amount during the Days, but when I think about it, I guess it wasn't all that much. But there were many factors following that:

1. Many things I discussed with Mac (Rikae's innocence, possible Gifteds) I could not discuss publicly during the Day without revealing. And talking about Gifteds in the presence of wolves is just silly. It's a different environment talking to an ally because you have nothing to hide. Also, I didn't want to reveal to much during the Day that might make the wolves see my connection to Mac.

2. Me being a little more than worried about getting myself killed early on. I know I haven't survived well in the past, and with someone else's life relying on mine, I was even more nervous. I guess after Day 3, I was a bit bolder...I think Rikae mentioned that somewhere...

3. Roleplaying. Don't get me wrong- I really loved roleplaying this time. It gave the game a unique touch, plus it worked well with the small number. But because of it I didn't post as much. I often reveal my opinions through lists and such...and we could only do a limited amount here. At Night, however, I didn't have to worry about roleplaying.

I hope that explains everything. Sorry if I wasn't as useful during the first Days as I could've been. People who know me well know I am a quiet person and not exactly bold; so careful is just what I do.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

And while the narration said that Beleg had to wake Turín up it seemed that Turín was a "sleeper" and thence a "quiet player" and that we should pay heed to it if we wished to lynch the quiets (which basically is the strategy I strongly back). Remember I had no idea who Turín was - like no one else but Beleg had. You can'ät blame me for not guessing it right now can you?

I didn't suspect you just because of that misinterpretation. But the fact that you kept bringing it up and seemed to use it as a basis for some of your arguments is what I found odd. I recall once thinking that perhaps as a wolf you hinted that Turin could be a sleeper because the other wolf was actually one and perhaps you were trying to draw villagers away from them. Perhaps you never meant it as anything significant; just a mere suggestion of a possibility...but for some reason it stood out to me. Anyways, I apologise if this explaining isn't exactly clear; I'm half-asleep right now...

Interesting reads, tgwbs. So, you were sort of onto me by Night 3.. And I find it funny to see how such little things can cause a missed-kill. I'll be sure to remember that next time and not judge it on who's reliable and who's not.

Oh, and congrats to Lhuna and tgwbs for their excellent wolf playing. They may have not won, but they both fooled us at one point or another, and to survive until Night 5 without any losses on their side is quite an accomplishment.

Anyways, I'm looking forward to seeing more wolf PMs from Night 4 and 5, as well as hearing from Mithalwen and her nightly choices.

[Macalaure]

Wow, this was a really tough game! Congrats to the wolves! If the field of choice wouldn't have been so narrow, I doubt I would have considered you two as possibilities, you were playing so well.

Originally Posted by Brinniel

A special thanks to Mac who once again was an excellent comrade to have. I don't think I could've been successful in my final hunt without his advice.

Oh, you're too modest. You did a lot more work than I did and I think you surely would have chosen Lhuna as well. If you hadn't been convinced of the pair Lhuna and tgwbs, I might not have been so confident to go after tgwbs the last day.
Anyway, it was absolutely great to plot with you once more, this time on the other side.

Originally Posted by tgwbs

So you see, if we had killed that night, it would probably have been Mac, and then things would have gone much better...

Originally Posted by Rikae

On night 3, I protected Macalaure. I'm still wondering whether that succeeded, or whether the wolves missed the kill;

Oh dear! This would have made three rejected kills in a row! This would truly have been historical!


Sorry for lynching you, Nogrod. As you can see from the PMs, the field to choose from was narrow, and I thought Lhuna innocent at the time. I had to decide between you and tgwbs (since I really didn't want to lynch another quiet one).

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Now where did these come from?

Well, your eagerness to lynch the quiet ones early on (I still think tgwbs had it right, even though he was evil), your assumptions on the wolves (which even boosted the former), your thinking that Turin is a sleeper (it looked to me like you were picking out only the one line from the narration that suited your purpose).
All these thoughts and ideas I disagreed on.

...and, well, if somebody keeps on saying things on which I disagree, then he couldn't possibly really be honest, or could he?

Your defensiveness on these points made me get the idea that you might be trying to lead the village along wrong paths. However, if you look back at the reasoning of my vote for you, that was honestly only because your behaviour towards tgwbs seemed fishier to me than his behaviour towards you. I turned out to be wrong, sadly.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

One more thing... It is a pleasure to read these Nightly discussions between you two Brinn and Macalaure. But you seem to be much more alive during the Nights than on Days... And that's the curse. And with this bunch of outlaws even more than with some other villages. This sleeping-curse was just too heavy on this village.

I mean having a good game requires people to actually play - during the Days as well! Be bold, be open or cunningly open-looking, whatever. Now you two were really playing well as I can read it from these PMs (although you made some grave misjudgements as well... but we all do them) but to the other players you were just two "non-posters" or if not quite that, very silent and careful players of whom it's very hard to say this or that... so tossing a coin it is with you, like with the one-liner -posters as well.

I think the primary reason why you all were just happy to lynch me was that I had talked so much that everyone of you had a point or another to go for me to appease your conscience... like it was basically why you picked tgwbs in this last vote - and won. So sad for tgwbs as he really tried honourably!

I sense perilious grounds here. I think, in this game, the average player might have had an average of maybe around 4 or 5 solid contributions per day, and I don't think that's so much less than in other games. I would say that the village seemed so quiet because there were only one or two really talkative players, who post more than the average does, and several who were struggling to participate much at all. The less people talk, the less the other people find to talk about (esp. considering the way the lynches and kills went), which of course is a vicious circle.

Concerning myself, it was a problem that, during the whole game, I was never really suspicious of anybody (except Izzy and tgwbs that one time... I was so sure suddenly) and even in RL I'm the kind of person who doesn't like to talk much about something if he has not really made up his mind before. I also noticed that I tend to be less open when I'm gifted. Then there was the problem that there was very little to go at, especially on Day Three, with two lynched who left little trails and no kill at all. To me, the first three days felt like an endless Day One. Add to this that I've lost my gifted ability after only one night and you might understand my frustration. In fact, I was close to putting on my boots of +3 to Hating this Campaign at that time.

[Nogrod]

You're quite right Mac and I'll promise I won't pursue this topic further. I just need to air those points a few times in a year...

And I quess there is some truth also in the fact that there were only eleven players to begin with.

As I said I enjoyed this immensly once again.

Thanks for the Nightly PMs Brinn and tgwbs! It's nice to start to understand how everything went in the end like it went.

PS. I can imagine your frustration Mac...

[the guy who be short]

During Night 4, Lhuna couldn't get to a computer, so everything you read is by me. I went a bit nuts and started analysing everything possible...

Sorry bout yesterday night - what a disaster, eh?! I couldn't get back online after the first pm I sent and hoped you'd have sent something to Leggy.

Thankfully, it's all worked quite in our favour. I think many people now expect amateur or absent wolves. I was also astounded by the support for lynching Noggy - each additional vote made me cackle insanely. Unfortunately, he was not a gifted as I had hoped, and so we have no lead to catch the next gifted... Well, not entirely true, we do have one...

We need to prioritize who to kill tonight, especially considering that this is the first night where we'll (hopefully) get a kill.

1) I think that it is now very important to kill a gifted. At worst, there are now two outlaws who know that three of the group are innocent, due to Rikae's saving on Night 2. However, it could be that Rikae is one of the gifted (it would make sense to protect themselves Day 1, I think) in which case it's not too bad.

2) I think our secondary goal should be to protect ourselves. I don't think I'm under much suspicion yet, miraculously, and thankfully Noggy absolved me of guilt! So we should look to protect you.

3) We need to foster confusion tomorrow. This shouldn't be too hard though; I think the entire village is quite lost at the moment.


Bearing all this in mind, we should NOT lynch Mith, as she is clearly not a gifted...

Yeah, right. Although by gifted, I meant Beleg or Turin at the time.

...If we're keeping her, I think we should also keep Brinn, if there is no strong evidence for her being gifted, because I think these two may go after one another tomorrow. We should also keep around Gil and Izzy as they are potential lynchees, due to the general suspicion of the quieter folk.

This leaves Rikae and Mac, right? We both think Mac seems gifted and he's generally under no suspicion (although Noggy did say to look at him tomorrow, so perhaps not). Rikae would be the safest choice, as her death will definitely cause damage to the gifteds; even if she is not one of them, they will lose a known innocent.

I'm in favour of killing Rikae or Mac, or possible Brinn if there is evidence of giftedness. The others I think should be left for the reasons above.

Now, we do have ONE clue in catching gifteds. Since Day 2, at least one person other than herself has known Rikae to be innocent. I'm going to go back and look at everybody's attitudes to Rikae and see what this brings up. If I have time, 'l'll create a table of what everybody thinks of everybody.

I fear you may come under suspicion tomorrow, my dear.

That is all for now. I shall contact you once the table is made.

I have made the table of everything relating to Rikae since Day 2 and will email it to you...

If I can find a way of getting this on the internet, I shall.

...The more I think about it, the more I think Rikae is Turin and Mac is Beleg.

Anybody who suspected Rikae after day 2 clearly is not a gifted; that's Izzy. I also don't think Mith is gifted because she hasn't mentioned Rikae at all; you'd expect a gifted to comment on somebody they knew to be innocent. These two are definitely out.

Gil has not mentioned Rikae, but he's been away. In any case, would Legate make him gifted knowing he'd be away? I doubt it.

This leaves Brinn and Mac. Mac has consistently found Rikae innocent, and she him. Brinn has also consistently found Rikae innocent, and Rikae found her innocent too, though mentioning her less.

It is, of course, possible, that Mac and Brinn are gifted together... I shall look into their relationship next.

Rikae has been most vocal in suspecting you, but also Izzy. This would promote the secondary aim of protecting you tomorrow. Although it may point to you, it could also be argued that it points to Izzy as well or that it is a set up. If you're not comfortable with removing Rikae, it will have to be Mac I think, which is a shame because I'm quite sure he finds you innocent at the moment.

I have to leave in a while. If I get no reply within an hour, to prevent the disaster of yesternight, I shall send leggy a provisional kill of Rikae, telling him that it could be overruled by any subsequent PM sent by you this night.

I have updated the table to include everybody except me, you and izzy.

So that night Rikae was my choice. She was really bad luck for us!

As you can see, I did mention the possibility of Brinn-Mac. I'm glad to see I wasn't too far off.

[the guy who be short]

(Lhuna)
Mac said he thinks it unlikely you would go after him toNight, but in any case his death would make everyone look towards you. Do you think he deserves to be killed, nonetheless? I think he might be one of the Captains. But my primary concern here is you, because it seems to me that I will go before you do.

Brinn could be the other Captain, I suppose. I don't recall her saying much of Mac, and vice versa. It could be them. Although I would certainly miss her vote of confidence in my innocence...

Ha... yes, vote of confidence. However, Lhuna was much more accurate than me, as you can see, in discovering gifteds.

(Still Lhuna)
...Could Mith really have had foreknowledge of Nogrod's innocence, though? If you do not think she will remain suspicious for long, she is another victim option.

So there are my rather vast choices: Rikae, Mac, Brinn, and Mith. Rikae or Mac I would most like to get rid of.

There is one thing I have to let you know, however: If you could so contrive to have me lynched without you being found suspicious once I'm proven guilty, would you do it? There is a reason I missed you last Night, and that we were unable to send a kill the other Night. I didn't expect the busy-ness to kick in this early into the term, and already I am starting to feel exhausted though I'm just on my fourth week.

If you didn't notice, my lack of concentration on the game is leading me to make clumsy mistakes during the Day. It's a wonder I'm even still alive. But I'm afraid I could hardly go on any longer. If I am to go, I would rather do so in a manner that would make our victory more certain.

I think Lhuna played absolutely marvellously considering how busy her real life was.

(Guy)
I'm not sure how possible it will be to go after you tomorrow. I've kept you nicely ambivalent until now. I suppose I could do an analysis tomorrow and try to come up with something suspicious, after doing Mac. I'll try. I can certainly lessen my suspicion of Mith... I do fear that I would not win without you though...

As for who to kill, this Rikae thing really is a problem. If Rikae is not a gifted, 3 people know she is innocent: Turin, Beleg and Androg. If she is gifted, she must be Turin...

I'm trying to remember my reasoning. I think I thought that Beleg could not protect himself and that, as Rikae was protected Night 2, she had to be Turin.

(Stiill Guy)
...in which case both Beleg and Androg know she is innocent, and she knows Beleg is innocent...

Whichever of these is true, I think it's frightening. Some of the louder people seem to have formed a block - the Mith-Mac-Rikae block is very chummy, with Brinn also in on it I think.

I'm all for killing Rikae AGAIN. Leggy will think we have some kind of obsession,

Who says we don't?

(Still Guy)
but it makes sense. If she isn't gifted, then it will still mean Beleg-Turin and Androg will lose a known innocent. And if she is, all the better.

I'll be trying to find the gifteds now. I feel that Mac is Beleg (no point killing him) and Rikae Turin. Not sure about Androg; - but Mith is a strong possiblity! If she knew Mac was Beleg, and felt Mac and Nogrod were innocent like I thought... yes, this makes PERFECT sense to me. She thought Nogrod was Turin because she knew Mac was Beleg and thought them gifted together.

Even the most logical of conclusions can be utterly stupid.

(Still Guy)
The problem with killing Rikae: Whom would she take with her? I think Mac-Rikae recognise that Mith is Androg... I think she would kill you.

Grr, this is difficult. Killing Rikae-Turin would result in your death. Killing Androg-Mith would make me lose a suspect tomorrow. Killing Beleg-Mac would be safest, but would not remove a gifted.

I prefer Mith. Getting rid of my top suspect will actually mean I can turn on you tomorrow without looking too bad, which is good. Mac has no powers and Rikae would kill you in the Night.

Agree?

(Lhuna)
I am thoroughly amazed at how you manage to make sense out of the roles. I am utterly clueless about them.

As was I, it seems!

(Still Lhuna)
I'm okay with killing Mith, because it could result in my death. Surely it wouldn't be too impossible that you just suddenly present a case against me tomorrow. I'll try to fight back as innocent-seemingly as I can so it doesn't appear too easy, and provide my own suspect/s, but in the end I'm sure you will manage to convince them.

You can secure a victory even without me, STAWB. I believe in you.

(Guy)
Hehe, well if it wasn't for Nogrod then I'd be lost about the roles too.

Thanks for that. I didn't even consider the existence of Androg until you mentioned it.

(Still Guy)
So we're agreed on mith, I'll PM Volo now. Tomorrow I shall present as strong a case as possible against you, with whatever evidence I can.

Of course, it never materialised. It's quite disappointing. If Rikae had just gone with her instincts and voted Gil before Mac voted, the wolves would have won!

[the guy who be short]

Oh, and sorry about the bolding. Dunno how to fix it.

[Rikae]

Originally Posted by TGWBS

Of course, it never materialised. It's quite disappointing. If Rikae had just gone with her instincts and voted Gil before Mac voted, the wolves would have won!

Well, I didn't really have that strong a preference! I just wanted to give Mac an argument...

Anyway, I've learned that when Mac is "so sure suddenly" about something, that's as good as scientific proof. (So much for women's intuition...).

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

There is little to be said that was not said, or that surely you won't think of by yourselves, but to let me voice my opinion, this one was a marvellous game and even though (or because of?) being a Mod, I enjoyed it as if I were a part of it.

I think against all odds, when it looked at the beginning really grave with our numbers, I daresay the game did not lose anything from its interest and, maybe, it was even better and indeed more "family-warm" environment with there being so few of you (or should I say: us?).
The game was, of course, a little changed against what I was planning it to do at first due to the lesser numbers (e.g. both Túrin&Beleg should have had one more addittional special ability... which I will keep to myself just in case I mod again), but I think even game-wise it turned out to be good and balanced. We had Túrin, Nienor (these two being the "weapon of mass destruction" whatever the case), Beleg, Andróg and Saeros as special roles; while originally Mim should also have had his part (larger) and maybe an Outlaw or two more (like an innocent Algund who would have known the identity of the Children, but they won't know his - sort of a seerish bonus to combinate things).

I am sure this one is running to a Barrow-Wight's Book of Records, because of the three in-a-row no-kill Nights, maybe even it should be considered that the stopped kills were both aimed against Rikae (I also don't think something like that normally happens...). This was one of the most critical things in the whole game, but as we saw, the no-kill maybe even helped the Wolves a little bit (well, maybe quite a lot). The other standpoints were, I believe, Brinn's choice of Lhuna (otherwise you were dead, as you probably know - I was almost sure she will pick Gil, that will be a total disaster) and of course, the Rikae-Mac learning each other innocent (though they both didn't know that the other knows as well).

The funniest moment still for me was Night 2. Rikae sent me quite early the information that she's, if I can quote, „going to rob that handsome young Macalaure fellow“. At that moment I said to myself: „Hmm, seems Andróg got to work quite early.“ But then I got a PM from Lhuna that the wolves chose Rikae as their target. „Hm,“ I thought, „so she's probably not going to enjoy the bow. At least the Ranger will have his bow back.“ I opened the later PM from Macalaure unmindfully. Then I burst in laughter when I realized what it reads and what it means. I have to say, as a first-time mod I consider this unbelievable and inequitable, for this is a thing that happens rarely and not every Mod is lucky enough to experience something like this; and I'm sure every Mod enjoys it greatly when it happens. At that moment, I pitied so much that you players don't know it!

And concerning your performance as players...

Shasta, it was indeed a shame you did not stay longer (for those who do not know, his aim was to kill Túrin - respectively: get him lynched or killed, but so that no blame falls on himself, of course - otherwise he was an innocent). Shasta, I know of your roleplaying skills and I hope the role did not hinder you much in that. Well, but someone has to die the first day.

Xyzzy, well, what to say? You are a Werewolfer, and you are yourself though maybe this time got more unlucky than normally. I think the "normal" games fit you better, but still - counting your number of posts in this game (three per day, though it was the only one) was good sign for me. Hope you liked the game too.

Nogrod, poor lad, that was really nasty what they did to you, when you were the one who technically was right in - well - many things. And surely you were the one with most "waking" effect on the sleepy hill, and I see you also manage to roleplay very, how should I say it, "realistic"! Had it not been for this game, I might not have learned. But thanks also for your help with co-modding, I am sure both me&Volo appreciated it.

Isabellkya, you surprised me with your roleplaying. It was as I said in the beginning, there is more in some of you than we can see when roleplaying is not set as compulsory. Maybe we should do it more often... Concerning the game itself, you were not as lucky this time with picking suspects and giving them to the village, but in the end, fourth day is fourth day.

Mith, thanks once again that you joined us in the end - and I hope you enjoyed it and don't pity joining in. You did well to stay as long, and did not end as wolf's meal until day 4. Say, did you have a clue who Túrin might be - or whom you thought to be Túrin (Nogrod at one moment, I think)?

Brinniel! Although you died in the end, I see you broke your record and that calls for celebrating it. And to consider that you died not by anyone else's choice, but due to a link of fate, well, being a "normal" character you might have finished till the end. Your play was a very good one and seemingly you kept it well balanced so that no one lynched you (skipping the fact that Nienor wanted at one point), but also you didn't call as much attention to yourself to get you wolf-targeted.

Lhuna, I never saw you playing before, but was not disappointed - you played just brilliantly! Who has seriously suspected you? For most of the time, practically no one - or at least not to bring it to deeds. And as I can see, in revealing other's roles you did also very well.

tgwbs, Lhuna's brother in arms. You made a nice wolf-pair, I believe, and you once again proved to be as slippery as possible, I'm sure had it not been for Rikae's and Mac's double-knowledge of each other, you could have convinced the village that you are Andróg or even Beleg. And even then, in the last moment, Gil could have gone instead of you. Even overall, the wolves' victory was this close. And

I'm all for killing Rikae AGAIN. Leggy will think we have some kind of obsession,

Well, right when you sent it the second time, I thought so...

Rikae, well, what to say? Brilliant game - and though your choice and getting the bow right the first night was... well... maybe I sort of hoped that "under candle least light"... but in all maybe I was not even thinking of this. It just happened. Nevertheless, even though you had the bow practically from the start, there was still quite a lot of danger for you, as we can see, more than enough. But you managed it!

Gil-Galad, I have to congratulate you to the victory (the whole time I was afraid they'll make you a scrapegoat, as always) and, also have to say that the time you had, you devoted to the game indeed with good contributions. Hopefully, and not just for the game's sake, we'll see you even more active in other games.

Mac, I am really sorry you couldn't use your Ranger ability more times. Perhaps some other time - I promise if I mod again, I will give you something that can't be stolen (hmm... like a Cursed Villager, for example). But nevertheless, you played well and you even did not get close to being suspected nor killed (again, at least not to bring it to deeds). So, cheers! Hope you enjoyed it and see you again somewhere...

And last but not least, not a player, but my co-mod Volo. What else can I say than "Well done, faithful servant..." You managed to take care of the game greatly, even if it was a little bit time-pressed, and without you everything will be surely waay more complicated. Thanks again!

And thanks again all for playing, it was great game to mod and great story to look at!

Now continue the aftertalk and don't mind my babbling

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by tgwbs

I'm all for killing Rikae AGAIN. Leggy will think we have some kind of obsession

You know, I thought Legate would think the same thing of me on you after I hunted you like, five times in a row! I'm still amazed on how accurate I was the first two Days with you. If only I had kept up that suspicion...

Btw, your PMs don't seem to have any mention of Nienor. Did you guys forget about her?

Legate, I'm really curious....how did you pick the roles? Were they completely random, or did you pick them for a specific reason? I've just gotta know...

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But that kind of works against the basic idea of this game which is that people should speak and then read what others say and make their deductions based on them. The other possibility would be that people just said "Hi" and then randomly made a vote. Which one of these is a werewolf-game?

Of course the point is that people should speak. . . but you have been blinded by your desire for analysing and intensive posting.

You don't need to post 10-20 times a day to be contributing to the game or two have fun (which is the true basic idea of the werewolf-game). You seem to focus way to much on this in every game you play. . . and I understand you in some of the cases, but a lot of the time I think you are overreacting.

Also when it comes to the analyzing bit. . . There is only so much to analyze, but of late there has been tendencies of half the village making 5 major post with loads of analyzing in each, and that is over analyzing. Thre simply is not that much wolwery in a game. The main point here is however that for all this analyzing people are no more often right than those that says "this sentence looks like wolvery ther for I vote for xxxxx"

I think the games are mor fun when you different ways of playing colide, it is great having you and SPM in a village, but if the whole village becomes your clones then the fun disapears.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune

it is great having you and SPM in a village, but if the whole village becomes your clones then the fun disapears.

To me the fun starts there... So watch out, we both are going to be in Fea's next game... so think a second time before enlisting as we might spoil your fun...

But yes, you're right in many things. I've been in villages where three or four people make a "deep-analysis" of the posts of one and the same person. That clearly is an over-exaggeration. Also skimming through two pages of posting when you are in the middle of RL "disturbances" makes one pretty desperate. I know I sometimes flood the threads with my thoughts which at worst are repeating earlier points. I know. And that's a shame.

Originally Posted by Rune

The main point here is however that for all this analyzing people are no more often right than those that says "this sentence looks like wolvery ther for I vote for xxxxx"

I'd bet the "analysers" have a slight edge in this but that's a slight one to be sure. But I think the point is not whether one is right or not but what s/he reveals of her/his target, but also - and even more importantly - about her/himself with the analysis and thence contributes to the game for also the others. The fun of these games to me is that I give something for you others to chew and you give me something to read from you. Then there is a balance. But if it's only some people who contribute and others stay low that's kind of not fair-play any more.

If only two people talk it's easy for the others to just concentrate on what they contribute - but that also means that all the others are safe from any suspicion whatsoever and those talkers will get killed sooner or later just because they tried to contribute. That's the thing I'm complaining a bit. A bit that is as I'm used to it already - and you can deduct that it isn't a big issue with me as I'm always ready for the next game...

So sportsmanship is the thing I am calling for. Whether you are an ordinary or a gifted or a wolf (or whatever) you should put yourself into the game giving also others a chance to read you and not only read others with really careful posting.

I mean really, we should make a trial - just for the fun of it - one day. Let's make a game were everyone is restricted to max. two posts / Day and no one is allowed to analyse or make any posts containing any principles or actual reasoning, not to say building up cases or making personal commitments. Just oneliners with stuff like "Hi guys, we have a problem here, let's solve it", or "I'll vote X because my randon generator gave her as a result - or his name begins with an "S"". I'd be very interested to see what would happen in that game and how much people would actually enjoy it...

I really thought I would play a bit differently this time but the roleplaying aspect pushed me back to my normal way of playing. One day I will play differently... only I'm afraid I'm lynched on Day1 as soon as I try to do something completely different...


PS. Rune: I was first a bit confused about your comment elsewhere but now I understand what you meant. Have no fear. I do not think your tone was too harsh or anything... To me this looks like discussing about the issues and that's what we should do anyway. So don't worry.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I'd bet the "analysers" have a slight edge in this but that's a slight one to be sure. But I think the point is not whether one is right or not but what s/he reveals of her/his target, but also - and even more importantly - about her/himself with the analysis and thence contributes to the game for also the others. The fun of these games to me is that I give something for you others to chew and you give me something to read from you. Then there is a balance. But if it's only some people who contribute and others stay low that's kind of not fair-play any more.

I think you are wrong. . . but I do not want to bet.

I don't see this as an issue of whether you should contribute or not, that is a given. What makes it fun for you is not necisarily what makes it fun for others , if you look at the earliest of ww-games way less was being said than now and they where just as popular. Speaking of fair play. . . people have different kinds of play and it is not fair at all when people who likes making many ultra long posts say to the rest "this is the way you have to play". . . . If you where only calling for the people that where truly quiet to speak up, then I would not raise a brow. The thing is that it seems that you question the styles of playing that is not very similar to your own.

I just don't think that one tactic has more merrit than the others. . . .The tactic of not saying anything is not included as it goes against the foundations of the game.

I for one is like an Ent when it comes to these games I don't want to say anything lengthy unless it is worth taking a long time saying. So normaly I stick to small and somewhat precise posts.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I mean really, we should make a trial - just for the fun of it - one day. Let's make a game were everyone is restricted to max. two posts / Day and no one is allowed to analyse or make any posts containing any principles or actual reasoning, not to say building up cases or making personal commitments. Just oneliners with stuff like "Hi guys, we have a problem here, let's solve it", or "I'll vote X because my randon generator gave her as a result - or his name begins with an "S"". I'd be very interested to see what would happen in that game and how much people would actually enjoy it...

hehe I can use that rethorical trick as well. . . .

I think we should make a trial game where everybody was obliged to post 20 posts/day and no one is allowed to do any jesting. . .only hardcore analysism is accepted, all post must be at least of 1000 words. Lets see what would happen in that game and how much people would actually enjoy it. . . .

I know this is wasted on you as you would aboslutely love this sort of game

Just remember that sportmanship goes both ways and that we have to accept that people play this game in their own and maybe different way.

and of course you are allowed to complaint about us speaking enough if that is the case. . . .but there is a difference between not speaking enough and not speaking as much as you.

[Gil-Galad]

i fine that i am striking as the crazy-man in WW games, i cuase enough ruckus and give out enough hunches that it keeps the village on their toes around me and it keeps the wolves letting me live so i can cuase enough distraction for them, but most of the time the wolves don't realize that i am slowly cornering them before it is too late to do anything about me... i am still playing WW till my goal of being a Seer so we shall see...

[Nogrod]

I think you are reading me too literally Rune. It's not the number of words I'm after. And as I've said before I know I'm a bit bad in this as I tend to be babbling in much too lengthy a manner in the games - and in post-game discussions...

I'd need a course in making clear and straight statements in English, I sure could use that. That's one of the reasons I decided to try a different game... which never materialised.

But with the risk of repeating myself, let's see if I could formulate my point understandably this time - and after this I will give up with it, honestly.

So let's bring these to the extremes to see the point.

Game1: no one speaks anything. Everyone just makes a vote once/Day (or forgets to do that). That will be a game of pure randomness and not funny to anyone. Just pure chance like throwing a dice or then just voting for those persons you don't like so much personally and thence it would only be a (cruel) game of social differentiation...

Game2: Everyone is required to make a full analysis of each other player in the game everyDay + a lengthy visionary post concerning all different possibilities the game-mechanics might work. That would hardly be amusing either... Only a dedicated player with lots of free time could read all through it in a game of twenty.

Neither seems like an enjoyable game.

But after we get more towards the middle ground and the reality the scene changes...

The problem in this mixed envirovment I think is in the inbalance. The contributors work from the basis of "I give to you new ideas about others and chances to pick suspicious things from my posting as well and you give me the same" while the quiets work on the basis of "I will give you nothing from myself but you should give Me everything". Remember that there is no game without the former people - but just Game1 whom no one wishes, I think... well, hope...

In practise this leads to the situation where one or two or three openly playing (one can look like playing openly while cheating!) will get lynched sooner than later as they are the only persons the others have an opinion. And why is that? Because they have made the game in the first place - remember Game1 once more. I mean, how could you make a case against totally silent player number 12 instead of totally quiet player number 11, or 7, or 4? How can you differentiate between them? Game1 once again... But of those loud players 1 and 2 and 3 it's much easier as they have contributed - given something to others.

This was not meant to be pointing to this game we played in particular. It was a small village indeed and many of my arguments are not valid with this "village" So basically it has nothing to do with this game we played. This was just an answer to Rune and as I promised, I will keep my mouth shut after this - even though I'm afraid I wasn't able to make my point clear enough.

Let's discuss this in Finnish the next time? I'll promise you a rhetorically outstanding argument in twenty words then!

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Rune

no one is allowed to do any jesting. . .

Here I think your parable breaks down... I'm all for jesting! I indeed do it all the time in these games - and that seems to be one of the major reasons why I'm getting lynched every now and then... Maybe I should learn English first before I start making jokes?

In the last game I opened the game with a Monty Python parody making it just nonsense and then only added a few starters to others to start picking up possible things (and to see how they would pick them or not).

What followed?

Everyone was sure that I was a baddie because of that post... and I needed to do a considerable amount of work to assure them otherwise (while they naturally were right as I was a wolf indeed...).

Jesting I do like even if many others seem not to like it, but a game with only arbitrary jokes would not be a fun game - like a joke in RL isn't worth much if it doesn't point to something real.

[Lhunardawen]

Ah well, it was really tough for the wolves to win. The odds really were against us. Wolf victories were very much attainable when there were three of them and the gifteds didn't know each other, but with only two of them, a very small village, and communicating gifteds? I wouldn't recommend an arrangement such as this again for future games.

STAWB, thank you for being an amazing co-wolf. Too bad we didn't get to push with our plan...but I ask you, Outlaws: could it have worked?

Nogrod, haha, sorry for all that. Just doing my job. When you first mentioned the possibility of me and tgwbs being the wolves, that was really freaky. Or was that Rikae?

Speaking of whom, congratulations for picking up the guilty vibes. I don't EVER want to be a villain again, it's so distressing! I've only played with you once before, if I remember right, and now you're such an expert at it!

You astounded my with your last kill choice, Brinn - I had no idea at all you woud go after me like that, especially with how sure you were of my innocence. That was brilliant analysis on your part. You too, Mac. I should have known that we won't win if you're paired with someone, because the only time I won as a werecreature...

Gil, too bad they didn't consider at all that we could have been the wolves.

I'm sorry I didn't see more of you in the game, Mum, or at least not as much as I wanted to. Or maybe it was better that way, or I would have gone after you.

Izzy, Shasta, xyzzy, it was a pleasure to play with you.

Finally, thanks for the wonderful game, Legate! When Nilp told me that I and tgwbs were the wolves, I immediately wondered if you chose us deliberately. That was certainly an exciting way to play Werewolf again (after ten games had passed!), even if I really hate it when I have to be a wolf. You came up with really brilliant ideas in relating the story to the game, and I commend you for that. Would that we had started early, though, or I wouldn't have been so clumsy near the end...

(Excuses.)

[Lhunardawen]

Those were interesting reads, Brinn and Mac. Thanks. But you should both be suspected of lycanthropy for flipflopping on me.

I really should stop making sense when I'm evil.

Originally Posted by Mac

Actually, before she even posted, I thought that, as a mod, I would probably choose her (Lhuna) for this role (Nienor). For some reason, it seems like a very fitting role for her.

Well...Lhuna had gone quite suicidal in the end...

Originally Posted by still Mac

If she's evil, then this is an interesting statement. Why would a wolf so openly, and so coolly, give away their nightly train of thought? Sure, some would, but is Lhuna such a pokerface?

Am I? *poker face* But it was true, wasn't it? Nogrod's an excellent case in point.

About Nienor, Brinn, I personally didn't think much of her because I wasn't too aware of what her role does. Plus there already were the Captains on whom to focus. As I said in the wolf PMs, I was completely LOST so far as the gifted roles were concerned.

And your killing me came just in time- the next Day, I would have been completely unable to go online on account of a Microbiology paper. So, yes, thanks for killing me.

[the guy who be short]

btw, your PMs don't seem to have any mention of Nienor. Did you guys forget about her?

Yep.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

I think you are reading me too literally Rune. It's not the number of words I'm after. And as I've said before I know I'm a bit bad in this as I tend to be babbling in much too lengthy a manner in the games - and in post-game discussions...

I'd need a course in making clear and straight statements in English, I sure could use that. That's one of the reasons I decided to try a different game... which never materialised.

I know that it is not the number as such you are after, I was just making a point by exagerating. . .just like you did. You can take everything to the extreme and thereby make it seem silly, but that is not really valid point as it can be done with everything.

Originally Posted by Nogrod

But with the risk of repeating myself, let's see if I could formulate my point understandably this time - and after this I will give up with it, honestly.

So let's bring these to the extremes to see the point.

Game1: no one speaks anything. Everyone just makes a vote once/Day (or forgets to do that). That will be a game of pure randomness and not funny to anyone. Just pure chance like throwing a dice or then just voting for those persons you don't like so much personally and thence it would only be a (cruel) game of social differentiation...

Game2: Everyone is required to make a full analysis of each other player in the game everyDay + a lengthy visionary post concerning all different possibilities the game-mechanics might work. That would hardly be amusing either... Only a dedicated player with lots of free time could read all through it in a game of twenty.

Neither seems like an enjoyable game.

But after we get more towards the middle ground and the reality the scene changes...

The problem in this mixed envirovment I think is in the inbalance. The contributors work from the basis of "I give to you new ideas about others and chances to pick suspicious things from my posting as well and you give me the same" while the quiets work on the basis of "I will give you nothing from myself but you should give Me everything". Remember that there is no game without the former people - but just Game1 whom no one wishes, I think... well, hope...

First of all: I have never seen a quiet person saying that the rest should speak up. . .

You cannot just enter a game and set your own standard for how it should be played and then expect people to do so. To some degree you tend to do that. No where is it written that this game should be about thorough analyzis, it could just as well be about simple observation.

Whenever I seem to spot a wolf it is not because I look hard at every word he says and try to analyze it, it is often because I spot a single sentence that seem manipulative or something of the sort. I then say tbat this seems wolfish and that is my reason to vote as I do. That should be perfectly acceptable, I should not be forced to look at every word that the person has written and have an oppinion about it. Because I do not have an oppinion about them all, if I an forced to write about them anyways it will seem like I am grasping at straws and I will be lynched for being wolfish. . . .

Originally Posted by Nogrod

In practise this leads to the situation where one or two or three openly playing (one can look like playing openly while cheating!) will get lynched sooner than later as they are the only persons the others have an opinion. And why is that? Because they have made the game in the first place - remember Game1 once more. I mean, how could you make a case against totally silent player number 12 instead of totally quiet player number 11, or 7, or 4? How can you differentiate between them? Game1 once again... But of those loud players 1 and 2 and 3 it's much easier as they have contributed - given something to others.

This was not meant to be pointing to this game we played in particular. It was a small village indeed and many of my arguments are not valid with this "village" So basically it has nothing to do with this game we played. This was just an answer to Rune and as I promised, I will keep my mouth shut after this - even though I'm afraid I wasn't able to make my point clear enough.

Let's discuss this in Finnish the next time? I'll promise you a rhetorically outstanding argument in twenty words then!

Once again I do not think you are being fair. . . .If people do not say anything at all (or just post once a day saying hardly anything), I my self would object to it. I think you are in your right to complaint about that, because people should not sign up if they are not going to play.
The thing is that you broaden your chritisism to players who contributes and makes vallid points, they just do it to a lesser extend than you and in another way. My guess is that mostly they do so because that is the way they like to play and I do not think that anyone has the right to tell them that their way is wrong.

[Nogrod]

Going against my promises once again but this starts to look like an actual game of ww where two innocents try to tear each other apart while they share mostly the same goal...

Originally Posted by Rune

No where is it written that this game should be about thorough analyzis, it could just as well be about simple observation.

Whenever I seem to spot a wolf it is not because I look hard at every word he says and try to analyze it, it is often because I spot a single sentence that seem manipulative or something of the sort. I then say tbat this seems wolfish and that is my reason to vote as I do. That should be perfectly acceptable, I should not be forced to look at every word that the person has written and have an oppinion about it.

I perfectly agree with you here!

I'm not looking at everything everyone says in a game and analyse their every sentence myself either. It would be 24-hour undertaking every Day - if that would be even enough... Indeed it's been a while since I've tried a "full-analysis" on anyone as it's so time-consuming and more often than not very unproductive.

But I hope you also agree that for you to "spot a single sentence that seem manipulative or something of the sort" you need the other players to actually post those sentences for you to spot them? So you need others to play to play yourself! Exactly what I've been calling for!

Originally Posted by Rune

If people do not say anything at all (or just post once a day saying hardly anything), I my self would object to it. I think you are in your right to complaint about that, because people should not sign up if they are not going to play.

Exactly. And that's what I'm mainly after...

Originally Posted by Rune

The thing is that you broaden your chritisism to players who contributes and makes vallid points, they just do it to a lesser extend than you and in another way. My guess is that mostly they do so because that is the way they like to play and I do not think that anyone has the right to tell them that their way is wrong.

You yourself quoted the part of my post where I said that this "criticism" - if you wish to use that word - was not directed to this game in particular. I have not broadened my basic complaint to anyone in particular. So it was a more general point. Thus you yourself are quick to run into conclusions as I have nothing against anyone who "contributes and makes vallid points". On the contrary. That's what I hope people would do when they play a game - whatever the extent or the way of their posting is!

Just two short points.

I've myself repeatedly said that I would love to try a different style to play these games. And maybe one day I manage to try it? But I couldn't think that way if I'd think that only one way of playing is right. So your speculation on what I think is clearly wrong.

What happens though in games where the majority posts little or at least clearly less than the vocal minority, the few loud players tend to get killed pretty soon because they are the only ones people will have an opinion. That's sad in a way as without those loudmouths there would be much less for anyone to do (much less sentences you might spot). But that's something I've accepted already a long time ago. This is a question of personal preference to be sure but I couldn't even think I could be in a position to require everyone else to play "loudmouthedly" as that comes naturally for some and would be very hard or even unpleasant for others... and we surely play these games to have fun, right?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Originally Posted by Nogrod

Exactly. And that's what I'm mainly after...
You yourself quoted the part of my post where I said that this "criticism" - if you wish to use that word - was not directed to this game in particular. I have not broadened my basic complaint to anyone in particular. So it was a more general point. Thus you yourself are quick to run into conclusions as I have nothing against anyone who "contributes and makes vallid points". On the contrary. That's what I hope people would do when they play a game - whatever the extent or the way of their posting is!

And I think the discution is drawing to an end. . . .

I might be drawing conclutions, but I seem to remember a game or two where I and others have been told that we were way to silent and was "required" (that word was not used) to speak up. . .There can be plenty of reasons not to be posting much, other people might have made your point, you can find nothing suspiciouse or simply that you have been kind of busy that day.

Anyways I just think that the chritisism should be limited to when people are hardly speaking at all or when it really gets to you, this way you words will also weigh more.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Brinniel

Legate, I'm really curious....how did you pick the roles? Were they completely random, or did you pick them for a specific reason? I've just gotta know...

Well, I think a good mod reveals as less of his "cookbook" as possible... But since you ask...

The roles were in original totally random. I just picked a randomizer, put in all players' names, and some result came out.

But I didn't like it. It was unbalanced, the persons rolled did not fit the roles. So I rolled again. And again. And again... you know how it works And finally, when there came a result that I liked, I said: "Yup. This is it." And then I just wrote down the list that came out of the randomizer, changed one or two names and that was it

So, here it is - you have your answer.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

I feel like I must apologize to Legate for ruining one of his special roles.

Yes, I knew Brinn was Turin from the start, and I had just formed the tiniest bit of a plan to that end when... I died.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Shastanis Althreduin

I feel like I must apologize to Legate for ruining one of his special roles.

Yes, I knew Brinn was Turin from the start, and I had just formed the tiniest bit of a plan to that end when... I died.

Why apologize to me? You were the harmed one... I hope you at least enjoyed the little time that was given to you.

[Shastanis Althreduin]

Because you gave me a role that was supposed to influence the game, and I flubbed it up? And I did enjoy it, even if I did only manage to post once.

[Brinniel]

Originally Posted by Shasta

Yes, I knew Brinn was Turin from the start, and I had just formed the tiniest bit of a plan to that end when... I died

Did you really figure out my role? Now that would've been interesting...

Anyways, you really shouldn't blame yourself for your death. Getting lynched on Day 1 is most often just bad luck, and it's a shame you had it.

[Mithalwen]

Sorry for not answering sooner. I am also sorry for a lacklustre performance. I had little time on my hands which was a particular hindrance with a RPG game and having signed up late I hadn't fully grasped the consequences of this - nor had I mugged up of the story ( I am so careful of my special edition CofH that I haven't got very far ) - so I was generally clueless . Also Nienor was a difficult role no positive power but doubly nervewracking! I did think Nogrod was Turin or Beleg since he was so sure that Nienor and Turin would both die if one died and that didn't seem to be explicit in the instructions.... trying ot defend him made me look rather conspicuous....