Locations of certain places

[Gorthaur the Cruel]

There are some places I've never been able to figure out their locations inn the Tolkien maps. I' like to know where the following are:

1. Angband
2. Utumno
3. Lake Cuivienen (birthplace of the elves)
4. Two Lamps (before the Two Trees)
5. First realm of the Valar (before Valinor)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Well... that's a little bit complicated, but I'll try to answer as best as I can. Hopefully someone else can make the information more precise.

Angband is just outside the map in Silmarillion, I guess about the same longitude as the long vertical line is (maybe a little bit to the east. But it is big anyway). In the Silmarillion, we are told that:

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Chapter 10 "Of the Sindar"

But Morgoth, as has before been told, returned to Angband, and built it anew, and above its doors he reared the reeking towers of Thangorodrim; and the gates of Morgoth were but one hundred and fifty leagues distant from the bridge of Menegroth: far and yet all too near.

(emphasise mine)
That's probably the closest description we have. You can measure it for yourself

Concerning Utumno, it is probably somewhere "around" (but the distance can be quite great), maybe a little bit more to the north and definitely further to the east.

Originally Posted by Silmarillion, Chapter 14 "Of Beleriand and Its Realms"

In the north of the world Melkor had in the ages past reared Ered Engrin, the Iron Mountains, as a fence to his citadel of Utumno; and they stood upon the borders of the regions of everlasting cold, in a great curve from east to west. Behind the walls of Ered Engrin in the west, where they bent back northwards, Melkor built another fortress [Angband]

In the Atlas of Middle-Earth by Karen Wynn Fonstad (quite a good tool, and I consider it quite trustworthy) Ered Engrin are pictured like some sort of circumpolar-oriented mountains (of course Middle-Earth was flat back then, so it's just half a circle). In that case Utumno lies practically on the pole (or, on the edge of the world) and Angband is in the southmost part of the mountains, somewhat more to the west than Utumno.

The last three are a problem, since they are all situated to the same environment (more or less, Cuiviénen is maybe a little bit better, but the two others are quite a big problem). At the time of the Lamps, when the first realm of Valar was on the island of Almaren, Arda looked completely different than after, because the wars between Valar&Morgoth even before the coming of the Elves completely changed its face. You simply had the world, where the only sea was in the midst, on the northern edge there was one lamp, soutwards the other, and in its middle there was the island where Valar dwelt. I guess if you sought for the place using geographic coordinates, you'll find the places matching some spot between M-E and Valinor (somewhere in the sea). Maybe the original island matched even the place of later Númenor?

And Cuiviénen. I'm not much sure about this one, but Fonstad in her atlas puts it about the same latitude as lake Rhun, but more to the east, as if you took the distance from Misty Mountains to Lake Rhun and multiplied it twice. She draws there the sea of Helcar, which, interestingly, is flooding Mordor and then all the space through Dagorlad to lake Rhun, and then further to the east as far as Cuiviénen. I'm not much sure about it being 100% reliable, but I think it will be more or less precise. We don't have much info about it, anyway, and Fonstad relied solely on the Professor's work when she was making it (but where he was not clear about something, she might have interpreted it in her view).

[Elmo]

To Cuiviénen there is no returning

so I don't think you could find it on any map.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

so I don't think you could find it on any map.

Of course, I forgot to add that as in the case of the Lamps, the location applies to Middle-Earth at the time of Awakening. Though it could be argued that the quotation you used is meant in a more "spiritual" way than just geographically.

[Iarwain Ben-adar]

1. Angband
2. Utumno
3. Lake Cuivienen (birthplace of the elves)
4. Two Lamps (before the Two Trees)
5. First realm of the Valar (before Valinor)

Those are what you want to know the location of. I will give a detailed description of the location pf each place.
Angband

-Location Angband is located in the Lands North of Beleriand. It is approximately 130-140 miles North-west of Thangorodrim. Directly to the north of Angband were the Ered Engrin (The Iron Mountains), and Dor Daidelos (the Regions of Everlasting cold). It is approximately 415-425 miles South-west from the Firth of Drengist (a Firth is a wide inlet of the sea). As the crow flies (a straight line) it is approximately 26-2800 miles from Aman.

Utumno

-Location utumno, also known as Udun, was directly north of the great lamp Illuin, which it was closer to compared to the Great lamp Ormal. Compared to ormal, it was still North of Ormal, just farther away compared to its relativeness to Illuin.. It is Protected by the iron mountains, and the Isle of Almaren is South of Utumno, in the Great Lake. Everything seemed to be in a line then. Here is the general order from Northernmost (top) to southernmost (bottom):
Utumno/Udun
Iron Mountains
Illuin
Great Lake
Isle of Almaren
More Great Lake
Ormal
And all around of this flat world was the doors of night.

Lake Cuivenien This lake is the awakening place of the Elves. It is located near the Inland sea of helcar (actually, near its Eastern bank). it is somewhere either in or on the edge of the wild wood, which is approximately 800-1000 miles from middle-earth, or Endor. The wild wood is, on its North-eastern edge, surrounded by the orocarni, the Mountains of the east. So, we can conclude several things about the location of this lake:
1) Located in or On the edge of the wild wood
2)surrounded by the Inland sea of helcar and the orocarni.
3)It is in the east
It is also in the Palisor, the Midmost region.

The locations of the two lamps is hinted at in my explanation of the location of Utumno.

I've had this map for a long time already. It helped me a lot when I tried to locate the places in the book. It looks exactly the same as how it is described. I hope it helps.

The link is: http://www.girsacrew.it/gdr/varie/ma...ppa%20arda.jpg

The coloured map is: http://www.anarda.net/tolkien/dibujo...arda_final.jpg

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have seen this map before and it always mannage to confuse me, I always imagined that Beleriand would be pretty much just west of Arnor. . .Is that really totaly wrong?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Finarfin

I've had this map for a long time already. It helped me a lot when I tried to locate the places in the book. It looks exactly the same as how it is described. I hope it helps.

The link is: http://www.girsacrew.it/gdr/varie/ma...ppa%20arda.jpg

The coloured map is: http://www.anarda.net/tolkien/dibujo...arda_final.jpg

Its completely 'wrong' - in the strict sense: The Shire did not exist at the same time as the Lamps, the Trees, or Numenor. However, it seems generally correct in terms of where places were/would have been in relation to each other. Forget things like scale though. Not too bad for orienting oneself

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I think this map was made for orientation for the confused reader. . . A person that read LotR and then years later reads Silmarillion could easily get confused over where the different things are and not realise that they did not exist at the same time.

So yeah a map for orientation, but it still has me confused though. . .. about the whole ME vs Beleriand thing.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by davem

Its completely 'wrong' - in the strict sense: The Shire did not exist at the same time as the Lamps, the Trees, or Numenor. However, it seems generally correct in terms of where places were/would have been in relation to each other. Forget things like scale though. Not too bad for orienting oneself

I think it's not only "wrong" in the sense you mean it, but "wrong" also in plain geographical sense. I think this one was used in David Day's "Tolkien's Bestiary", which itself is a book assuming too much of nothing (e.g. Tom Bombadil is a Maia, Goldberry as well, of course a Maia of Ulmo).

For example, on this map, if it were to be used like that, then Almaren was supposed to be in the middle of the world (there was no dividing of Middle-Earth and Valinor then), so it will be somewhere like Númenor on this map; while the Lamps were just directly north and south of it - so also around the "0° longitude", meaning the Northern lamp should have been marked somewhere near Helcaraxë. Just an example, thought, but what I'm saying is that even this map is nothing much. Fonstad's map I consider far more precise, it's more checked with the book.

[Mithalwen]

Well the Ered Luin were the East of Beleriand. If you compare the LOTR maps with the Silamrillion you can see how the line of the mountains is the same - although broken of course by the Gulf of Lhun

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well the Ered Luin were the East of Beleriand. If you compare the LOTR maps with the Silamrillion you can see how the line of the mountains is the same - although broken of course by the Gulf of Lhun

Yup, and that's screwed up on the map as well. Beleriand is far too north. You may actually compare it, there are several points on the LotR map which you can compare to places in Beleriand (those islands west of Lune...)

[Mithalwen]

I am afraid I stopped trying to magnify that map when I saw Numenore wasn't star shaped...

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I am afraid I stopped trying to magnify that map when I saw Numenore wasn't star shaped...

Yup, and I strongly discourage the idea that the equa- sorry, the "Belt of Arda" goes through Gondor. Bah! Nonsense! Even Gandalf talks about it with Pippin (or is it earlier? Sam? With Faramir? Aragorn? Oh, I completely forgot! Terrible! I hope it's just momentary, or I'm in big trouble!).

[Elmo]

Are you talking Mithalwen, when Aragorn said (or maybe boasted ) that he'd been in Harad where the stars are strange?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Are you talking Mithalwen, when Aragorn said (or maybe boasted ) that he'd been in Harad where the stars are strange?

1. Try not to read too quick, hwaim I'm not Mithalwen.

2. That's one thing, thanks for bringing it up - if the map were like that, then "strange stars" would have to be even in Gondor, so not that much strange... But what I meant was some sort of chatter "I thought when we'll be going south, there'll be just getting more warm and nice and everything." And the "wise fella" responds: "Maybe it were, but only in Harad, were it not for the Enemy." (or something in that sense)

[Elmo]

1. Try not to read too quick, hwaim I'm not Mithalwen.

Haha that's me being hasty, I'm the Quickbeam of the forum

If you all can read, it says: A COMPOSITE STUDY OF ARDA THROUGH OUT THE AGES. This means ALL AGES. This way you know the location of every single place in the same map its time. If not, you'd have to make dozens of maps. So, in conclusion, please read before writing.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Finarfin

If you all can read, it says: A COMPOSITE STUDY OF ARDA THROUGH OUT THE AGES. This means ALL AGES. This way you know the location of every single place in the same map its time. If not, you'd have to make dozens of maps. So, in conclusion, please read before writing.

That's okay. But that was just the first post. It's nothing offensive, but the map is geographically wrong (not five-star-shaped Númenor, the Lamps should have been sticking out of the ocean then, there should've been Almaren marked in the middle of Númenor in that case, and equator is southern than Gondor).

[Mithalwen]

Sorry it just seems so wrong with the bits we know about it. Beleriand was basically a westernextension of lindon (as it existed SA onwards) not a northern one - you cansee if you compare the Beleriand map at the back of the Sil with the UT/LOTR Middle earth and line up Himring and the remnant of the Blue Mountains. The Map in the UT clearly shows Numenor as a star.

Having done a close up it also seems that the Shire and it's environs has spread across all Arnor. So while I appreciate a lot of things have to be placed speculatively relative to descriptions, other things we know about, didn't move and really could be more accurate.... in my opinion...

And Legate ..you should count your blessings on that score

[Galin]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

... there are several points on the LotR map which you can compare to places in Beleriand (those islands west of Lune...)

What islands on The Lord of the Rings map

http://www.abo.fi/~jumppa/Pauline_Ba...ddle-earth.jpg

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

That map, is clearly a fake one! (the one Galin linked)

My Barrow does not look anything like it is pictured on the map. . .

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Galin

What islands on The Lord of the Rings map

http://www.abo.fi/~jumppa/Pauline_Ba...ddle-earth.jpg

Well Pauline Baynes is wonderful but she has missed Himring.....

[Galin]

Yes, this is the (very nice) Pauline Baynes map -- basically based on the map published in the first edition plus additions JRRT communicated to her.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Galin

What islands on The Lord of the Rings map

http://www.abo.fi/~jumppa/Pauline_Ba...ddle-earth.jpg

Yup, exactly the islands that are covered by nice la-di-daa pictures of Cerin Amroth and ships on your nice map

[Galin]

And according to Treebeard's chant at least, Dorthonion (Tol Fuin) is included in the lands under the wave.

In any event this island also appears on the map published in The History of Middle-Earth series.

[Elmo]

And according to Treebeard's chant at least, Dorthonion (Tol Fuin) is included in the lands under the wave.

Has Treebeard gone for a swim to find out?

[Galin]

Not to forget Tol Morwen:

'... nor ever thrown down, not though the Sea should drown all the land. As indeed after befell, and still the Tol Morwen stands alone in the water beyond the new coasts that were made in the days of the wrath of the Valar. But Húrin does not lie there, for his doom drove him on, ...' JRRT The Wanderings of Húrin

[Rumil]

Hi all,

an old, but still good (or at least funtional!) link posted originally by Mithadan show a superimposed Beleriand and Anor,

see here

and the relevant thread here-

Is it ALL gone?

anyone care to comment on the bogusness or otherwise of the Himling-Himring-Taur-nu -Fuin concept?

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I have been wondering. . .If Beleriand was indeed placed as on the map that David Day uses, would that not mean that Hithlum would be somewhat arctic?

If the climate of the Shire was pretty much like the English (maybe less rainy) then Hithlum must have been like Greenland or at least Iceland. . . .

[Rumil]

Hi Galin et al,

you got me curious about Himling, so I had a quick Wiki and found

^ Most canonical maps give the Island's name as Himling, but this spelling is erroneous: it was originally a name used by J. R. R. Tolkien for the Hill itself, later replaced by Himring. The Island appears only once on an early map for The Lord of the Rings and is labeled Himling there. Since the map was later than the change, Christopher Tolkien decided to retain this spelling onto his map for the Unfinished Tales (included also into recent editions of The Lord of the Rings). But in a rough note, which is contemporary with J. R. R. Tolkien's map, the Hill itself is called Himling, suggesting that the Isle's name is an equal slip. See The Treason of Isengard, p. 124 and note 18, and Unfinished Tales, note on the map in Introduction.

I looked in the UT intro and found that CT says that Himling was on his father's sketch map and his own first draft and says that Tol Fuin in somewhere to the West (though doesn't say whether it did appear on JRRT's sketch).

So this shows that Himling was at least sketched by JRRT but not, as you say, published by him. Does anyone have access to The Treason of Isengard quote?

I guess this point is quite crucial for would-be Middle Earth cartographers!

[Galin]

The Himling text and the early map drawn by JRRT appear to date about 1940.

The external history implies that Himring was the later form of the name for the hill. Christopher Tolkien notes that Himling was the earlier form of Himring in his introduction to Unfinished Tales (about the map), or for example, see the Hill of Himling in The Lay Of Leithian, and commentary: 'Two new elements in the geography appear in this canto: the Hill of Himling (later Himring) rising in the east of the Gorge of Aglon (2994)'

It appears Christopher Tolkien drew the general map published in the First Edition (he made it in 1953), but this detail got left out for some reason. Then the poster-map comes around years later, about which Tolkien added details: 'She [Pauline Baynes] consulted with Tolkien, who sent her a marked photocopy of the general map, as well as additional names to include and advice on a few points of topography and nomenclature...' Hammond And Scull RC

And later we have the detail appearing on the map made for Unfinished Tales of course.

[Rumil]

Hi Galin,

thanks for the detailed information, fascinating but frustrating stuff!

Of course Christopher has the right to add to JRRT's work, but it seems he might not have been well-advised to do so here in light of the comments that all remained of Beleriand was Lindon and Tol Morwen, creating a definite inconsistency.

Still, I wonder if the location of Himling could still be 'correct', while recognising that it was less of an island and more of a hazard to shipping! This could still allow the inter-relationship of the Third age and First Age maps to be determined accurately without requiring additional real estate.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

It's to be remembered that young Christopher did the original Map in a tearing hurry, working 24 hours straight to meet a publishers' deadline: and so it's understandable if Himling was simply a detail he left out. It's noteworthy that the "Unfinished Tales" map differs from the first (aside from scale) only in the addition of the "Baynes" nomenclature, and the island- which leads me to believe CT considered its omission from his first version to have been a careless omission which needed rectifying.

[Galin]

IIRC there's no specific statement in UT as to what exactly happened with the first edition map here, but that's the implication I get as well.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

OTOH, CT naturally never regarded the 1954 Map as precisely canonical, since his father didn't draw it: it was a copy of his father's, which would be the Vulgate, and presumptively more 'correct' than CT's rendition.

I can even imagine JRRT observing "You've missed out Himling- but it's not that important." Or CT at the time, having already laboriously done the contour-lines around the coast of the mainland, realizing too late that he'd drawn over the island's location. What I can't imagine is JRRT telling him to leave it out- in that case one would expect it to have been erased or crossed off on Tolkien's original: and in the face of such an explicit instruction, CT wouldn't have put it back in the 1980 Map.

[Galin]

Whatever happened, Christopher Tolkien explains...

'... and I have shown the little island of Himling off the far north-western coast, which appears on one of my father's sketch-maps and on my own first draft. Himling was the earlier form of Himring (...) and though the fact is nowhere referred to it is clear that Himring's top rose above the waters that covered drowned Beleriand. Some way to the west of it was a larger island named Tol Fuin, which must be the highest part of Taur-nu-Fuin.' Christopher Tolkien, Unfinished Tales

OTOH, CT naturally never regarded the 1954 Map as precisely canonical, since his father didn't draw it: it was a copy of his father's, which would be the Vulgate, and presumptively more 'correct' than CT's rendition.

Good point.

[William Cloud Hicklin]

IIRC, all the new elements in the Baynes map were place-names, chiefly rivers (and I suspect on Tolkien's mind at the time, 'The Rivers and Beacon-hills of Gondor' dating from about then). In other words, he gave PB some names to add to previously nameless features, but not new features.

[Galin]

To add some dating:

1953 Dec

Tolkien writes to R. Unwin. He hopes to provide A&U with proofs of Vol. I and a map: '... presumably marked page proofs and the general map of Middle-earth redrawn by Christopher Tolkien.' (H&S).

1954 February

Tolkien notes he will try to get Christopher to draw the Shire map during a weekend. Tolkien thinks the proof of Christopher's map looks very well, except has some scale concerns and notes that Minas Tirith is too hard to read.

1954 April

Minas Tirith is corrected (made more legible). Tolkien also remarks in a letter with respect to the Shire map and the general map: 'I may say that my son's maps are beautifully clear, as far as reduction in reproduction allows; but they do not contain everything, alas!'

1954 May

Tolkien gets final proofs and approves maps.

1955 April

Tolkien and son Christopher work intensively on a map of Rohan, Gondor, and Mordor for The Return of the King.

With thanks to Hammond and Scull!