Visit The *EVEN NEWER* Barrow-Downs Photo Page |
06-03-2007, 01:21 PM | #1 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
|
Bet you haven't seen this topic coming...
According to the Silmarillion there are a few things that the Valar haven't forseen, things in each age that do not 'arise from the past' or some such thing I mistily recall. What are these events? I'm guessing the love between Beren and Luthien and maybe the attack on the lamps because they seemed completly unprepared for that, maybe the destruction of Numenor aswell.
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
06-04-2007, 03:25 AM | #2 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Fort Worth, Texas
Posts: 27
|
I'm right in the middle of Morgoth's Ring, so I'd say Miriel's death in Valinor, for one. It caused not only a big hullaballoo amongst the Valar, but forced JRRT to outline the rules for death and marriage for the Elves.
|
06-04-2007, 03:30 AM | #3 |
Pittodrie Poltergeist
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: trying to find that warm and winding lane again
Posts: 633
|
Does this mean that if they haven't forseen these events, they can't forsee events that lead on from it? Like for example, couldn't forsee Miriels death therefore couldn't forsee Feanor's revolt or couldn't forsee destruction of Numenor so couldn't see creation of Gondor and Arnor. If that is true then there forseight isn't very impressive...
__________________
As Beren looked into her eyes within the shadows of her hair, The trembling starlight of the skies he saw there mirrored shimmering. |
06-04-2007, 08:45 AM | #4 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 274
|
Quote:
Quote:
Of course on the point of foresight, Mandos should probably be distinguished from his brethren as he "knows all things that shall be, save only those that lie still in the freedom of Iluvatar" (Silm., Valaquenta) I guess in answering the question of what are the things that the Valar can't foresee, a useful starting point is determining what things take Mandos by surprise/seem outside his knowledge. I think that the Beren/Luthien situation that you cite is a good example of this. Earendil's fate (and that of Elwing and their sons) may be another.
__________________
He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said |
||
06-04-2007, 09:03 AM | #5 |
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
|
I think the main point was in the "freedom of Ilúvatar", meaning simply that there are some things that are lined, you know, "logically" and for Valar (maybe even from some Wise among Elves or Men) they can be expected from what happens before. You know, something like it is logical that if A leads to B, then when A happens in the history, we will expect B to happen (of course, this is just a very simple scheme, the knowledge of Valar is of course transcending the simple logic of Elves or Men, but they probably also have some sort of "logic"). But there are things that are totally unexpected and can emerge "against logic", because they come from Eru's freedom. For example, I think the most obvious event like this is the emergence of hobbits.
__________________
"Should the story say 'he ate bread,' the dramatic producer can only show 'a piece of bread' according to his taste or fancy, but the hearer of the story will think of bread in general and picture it in some form of his own." -On Fairy-Stories |
06-04-2007, 09:07 AM | #6 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||
06-04-2007, 09:57 AM | #7 | ||
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 274
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
He looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. "She was not conquered," he said |
||
06-04-2007, 10:26 AM | #8 | ||
Eagle of the Star
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sarmisegethuza
Posts: 1,058
|
Quote:
Quote:
__________________
"May the wicked become good. May the good obtain peace. May the peaceful be freed from bonds. May the freed set others free." |
||
|
|