Who was the most foolish ruler of all?

This thread probably won't go too far, but just curious. What are your nominations for the most foolish rulers of all time in any of the books and how so?

There are several, but these are my top personal pics:

-Ar-Pharazon, last king of Numenor. For bringing the enemy home, and leading to the downfall of Numenor.

-Earnur, last king of Gondor (pre Aragorn) for riding foolishly into Minas Morgul for a duel with the lord of the Nazgul while accompanied only by a small group.

[elronds_daughter]

I'll second Ar-Pharazon. Though I suppose that anyone could be taken in by really good diplomacy. But it would have to be incredibly good to get anywhere with me.... Not that I'm flaunting that, or anything.

Denathor wasn't the brightest bulb during his last yeras, either, though. But Ar-Pharazon takes the cake, in my opinion.

[Hookbill the Goomba]

I'll have to vote Melkor. I do have reasons before you castrate me!

1) He lost most (if not all) his power very early on and became a very weak individual. To try and rule in that state would be folly.

2) His shear pig-headed ness and soberness makes him rash and easily distracted from matters of importance.

3) People would revolt and cast him down eventually.

4) His only real leader qualities are in military strategy. When it comes down to matters of governing, I think he'd be poor.

I believe, if he ever became ruler of anything more than Angband and his other lands, he would soon realise how foolish he'd been. Not that he would admit it as Manwe would say "Ha ha! I was rite! You were wrong Nah, Nah!"

[mormegil]

I would actually say that Fëanor was one of the most foolish leaders. He had great power to influence people and yet he used it to estrange his people from the power he needed to actually accomplish his purpose. Meaning the separating himself from the Valar. He used his influence and power to insight evil deeds, the Kinslaying being one of the most fiendish. Much like Hookbill said of Melkor he is so consumed with himself that he doesn't look to his own people. He led his own in his quest to get his jewels back. He drew a wedge among his followers by abandoning a host of his followers to either return in shame to Aman, stay and die, or attempt to cross Helcaraxë when he needed all the help and support he could get. And let's not forget about that little oath of his and it's wonderful outcomes.

[elronds_daughter]

Hmm... I hadn't thought about Melkor, Hookbill, but you've got a good point.

You too, mormegil. Feanor certainly wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer..

[Boromir88]

I would disagree with Denethor. He was a man as Tolkien said became corrupted by politics, but he was quite good at what he did. All the more amazing still remaining to keep sanity (for the most part) while viewing the palantir for 40+, dealing with the death of his wife and son, and his other dying son, as well as seeing his kingdom on the verge of destruction. But, that's just a matter of differing opinions, it's definitely easier to dislike Denethor, then it is to like him.

I would vote Fengel. Just because he wasn't very well liked. He caused strife with his marshal's, his own son hated him so much he went to Gondor and was reluctantly returned back after his father died to take his place. He loved gold, cared nothing for friends. Sounds very stupid to me, and quite foolish.

[Anguirel]

Mormegil, I agree with you somewhat on Feanor, but would add the caveat that he was a brilliant general in times of war, with that crucial one Lionheart-like weakness-lack of self-preservation. I also understand his motives for "cutting himself off from the Valar", as splendidly expressed by him when he answers Manwe's herald. And the Kinslaying, though a terrible thing to initiate, has to be seen in the light of Finwe's death and Feanor's longing for revenge.

I would disagree entirely on Denethor.

It seems to me that we see all of Melkor's humiliations, because he's the baddie. That still doesn't mean we can neglect his achievements-if they can be called that, as they are all negative. Supreme among these for me is his mastery of treachery-twice against Maedhros (including the Nirnaeth), infinitely against Hurin's family, and against Turgon through Maeglin.

Ar-Pharazon is an excellent choice.

I don't actually think much of Helm Hammerhand. Belligerently stirring up racial feuds which led to the near destruction of Rohan.

Earendil, whatever else he was, proved a poor ruler to his people.

But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical...

I like this thread, and will return to it when I have more. Have we already got a positive one? I might ressurect if I find it.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

... with that crucial one Lionheart-like weakness-lack of self-preservation.

His diplomatic skills weren't too hot either.

[Anguirel]

Feanor's political career-and it truly pains me to say this-could be construed by some as similar to Hitler's; diplomacy being viewed by both as a cumbersome thing that can be lightly dispensed with. I prefer the metaphors I've thought up so far-Achilles and Richard Plantagenet, both heroes of mine-so far though...

[Lady_Galadriel]

this is an extremly wonderful topic!

[QUOTE=Anguirel]

But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical...
QUOTE]
i agree... who would put his power into a ring that would eventually fall into the wrong hands and destroy middle earth as we know it?! thats just nuts!

[yavanna II]

I'd like to agree for Ar-Pharazon... a really stupid git who took an evil Maia home with him... hasn't he got the wits to think about how cunning Sauron can be, I mean, he's just too proud... and he really isn't the heir, it was his cousin/wife Miriel...

Also I'd like to point out that Tar Palantir did the very mistake of not securing the kingdom to his daughter... though he really isn't stupid, he just overlooked the fact that his brother and his nephew wanted to rebel against the Valar...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

I've got to go with Tuor's daddy-in-law, Turgon. He's known for a long time Gondolin can't be stayed in forever and he gets as clear a warning as
seems possible that it's time to say "Hasta la vista, , baby" , but then
(to quote Professor Harold Hill) "He dillies and he dallies."

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical...

Darn this ten-reps-in-between rule...

And not considering all the possibilities of your foes defeating you is a bad way to go, too.

[alatar]

Have to put Manwë on the list.

Can never see Melkor for who he really is. Just how many times does Melkor have to destroy Aman/most of Arda/etc for Manwë to think, "ya know, this guy might not have good intentions...hmmm."

Thinks it's a great idea to bring the elves to Aman for "safekeeping." That's funny, as it never was safe before nor afterwards. This, of course, leads to all sorts of other problems.

Thankfully, he does show a little wisdom and doesn't bring Men to Aman. But sets up the Edain on Numenor, and, showing a deep understanding of human psychology, tells them that there is a place that they shall not go. There's nothing like a Ban to get Man curious. So when Man does break this law, what does he do? Calls on someone else to fix it.

Luckily, as time passes, Manwë takes less and less of an active role and ME benefits from his choice of Istari, though the overall failure rate of that venture was 80%.

If it weren't for sending eagles and Gandalf, not sure what good Manwë has done.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

That's funny, as it never was safe before nor afterwards.

In what sense wasn't it safe?

Can never see Melkor for who he really is.

I presume you are reffering to his release of Melkor:

Originally Posted by Osanwe kenta

The weakest and most imprudent of all the actions of Manwe, as it seems to many, was the release of Melkor from captivity. From this came the greatest loss and harm: the death of the Trees, and the exile and the anguish of the Noldor. Yet through this suffering there came also, as maybe in no other way could it have come, the victory of the Elder Days: the downfall of Angband and the last overthrow of Melkor.

Who then can say with assurance that if Melkor had been held in bond less evil would have followed? Even in his diminishment the power of Melkor is beyond our calculation. Yet some ruinous outburst of his despair is not the worst that might have befallen. The release was according to the promise of Manwe. If Manwe had broken this promise for his own purposes, even though still intending "good", he would have taken a step upon the paths of Melkor.

This, of course, leads to all sorts of other problems.

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion, iii, Myths Transformed, HoME X

But, if we dare to attempt to enter the mind of the Elder King, assigning motives and finding faults, there are things to remember before we deliver a judgement. Manwe was the spirit of greatest wisdom and prudence in Arda. He is represented as having had the greatest knowledge of the Music, as a whole, possessed by any one finite mind; and he alone of all persons or minds in that time is represented as having the power of direct recourse to and communication with Eru. He must have grasped with great clarity what even we may perceive dimly: that it was the essential mode of the process of 'history' in Arda that evil should constantly arise, and that out of it new good should constantly come. One especial aspect of this is the strange way in which the evils of the Marrer, or his inheritors, are turned into weapons against evil. If we consider the situation after the escape of Morgoth and the reestablishment of his abode in Middle-earth, we shall see that the heroic Noldor were the best possible weapon with which to keep Morgoth at bay, virtually besieged, and at any rate fully occupied, on the northern fringe of Middle-earth, without provoking him to a frenzy of nihilistic destruction. And in the meanwhile, Men, or the best elements in Mankind, shaking off his shadow, came into contact with a people who had actually seen and experienced the Blessed Realm.

In their association with the warring Eldar Men were raised to their fullest achievable stature, and by the two marriages the transference to them, or infusion into Mankind, of the noblest Elf-strain was accomplished, in readiness for the still distant, but inevitably approaching, days when the Elves would 'fade'.

As we can see, it was not a zero-sum game.

There's nothing like a Ban to get Man curious.
...
Calls on someone else to fix it.

What better alternatives do you see?

If it weren't for sending eagles and Gandalf, not sure what good Manwë has done.

He is called the "chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised against the discord of Melkor", cf. Ainulindale. I certainly doubt it was a gratuitous title. He is the main organiser of the resistance against Melkor, he calls his brethren to the fight, he transmits Eru's will to the others (as the only one capable to directly appeal to Him). According to Osanwe-kenta, "Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always."

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

But surely Sauron takes the biscuit. I mean-putting his power into a ring? That's just comical...

Oh really? Sauron wanted to have a greater control over Middle-Earth by becoming more attached to Arda, less of a spirit. How better to do that than tie your spirit down to an anchor, preferably metal, as it came from deep underneath the earth? And so now we need an anchor so close to Sauron, so fixated to him that no-one imaginable could EVER take it away.

A ring! How is anyone ever going to get a ring on the Dark Lord's finger off of him? Well, the Numenoreans. And Sauron had already killed off Numenor by sending them to make war to the Valar. If it wasn't for Eru saving the Faithful, the plan would be flawless! No-one would ever have the might to challenge him again! Mwahaha! hehe hee *cough* *cough* . . .

[William Cloud Hicklin]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

....similar to Hitler's; diplomacy being viewed by both as a cumbersome thing that can be lightly dispensed with.

Oh, no- Hitler was a big believer in diplomacy. He'd happily negotiate a treaty with any sucker so dim as to believe Adolf actually meant a word of it. "Smeagol lied," don'tcha know, old boy?

[Bêthberry]

I'd say it was a pair of rulers.

Melian for thinking that a girdle could hold back the ravages of time, and Thingol for being the quintessential controlling, domineering, possessive dad.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In what sense wasn't it safe?

How many elves died in 'heaven?' Surely not as many as in Middle earth, but the land without stain surely had to be steam-cleaned more than a few times.

What better alternatives do you see?

I've struggled with this question. Eru constructed men thus, and so you'd think that he'd have a better plan to hand to Manwe regarding the Ban. And note that this was somewhat in reference to the Garden of Eden Genesis account in the Christian Bible.

We're curious folk, and not knowing something gets our imaginations, then feet, in motion. The best way to keep my kids out of something is to hide it in plain site. Telling them not to go into a closet is a surefire way of getting them to open the door.

He is called the "chief instrument of the second theme that Iluvatar had raised against the discord of Melkor", cf. Ainulindale. I certainly doubt it was a gratuitous title. He is the main organiser of the resistance against Melkor, he calls his brethren to the fight, he transmits Eru's will to the others (as the only one capable to directly appeal to Him). According to Osanwe-kenta, "Manwe was bound by the commands and injunctions of Eru, and would do this or abstain from that in accordance with them, always."

Maybe it's our definitions of 'leader.' Manwe, to me, is passive. As you say, he is the Arda conduit of Eru, and not, seemingly, off a leash. He's reactive - something happens then he takes action. It's notable that he sits on his throne.

And note that Tulkas calls his brethren to fight Melkor as well.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

I think all the nominations here were quite silly. Not including Melkors and Manwës and I am just waiting for someone to say "Sauron because he let Frodo in Mordor", this is completely out of place... the examples you mentioned, they are all just pettifoggers. In case of many like Ar-Pharazon it was not foolishness but mainly arrogance, lust and, especially in case of Ar-Pharazon, I believe more than foolishness intentional denial of truth to himself. Denethor was defeatist, but not a fool. Eärnur was provoked - it was not foolishness, it was anger. Do you want to know one (and the only one that comes to my mind now) really foolish act in the very sense of the word, and the most foolish ruler of all?

My nomination is ORODRETH.

That fool built a bridge to let Glaurung in. I have never seen any more foolish act. It is the very definition of foolishness and if you posted "fool" in the Word Association game and it would be on me, his name would follow. It was Túrin's idea, that's fact, so we could speculate whether it was his or Túrin's foolishness, but for the purposes of this thread I am speaking of the ruler, which is Orodreth. I could name them as "ruling duo". But I don't get why there was no one who named this thus far.

[Elmo]

Isn't building bridges always a good thing? Turin and Orodreth just wanted easier transport, as long as they didn't charge tolls I don't see it being a bad thing or at least without the benefit of hindsight.

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Legate of Amon Lanc

That fool built a bridge to let Glaurung in. I have never seen any more foolish act.

That begs the question: exactly why do Dwarves build entranceways that admit dragons (Smaug) and build hallways that allow Balrogs to run about the place? If the folk are four feet-ish high, what's the need for the 'extended to the max' headroom?

Does this put Father Durin on the list?

Originally Posted by Max Headroom

Now, I'm no librarian, in fact, I don't know what star sign I am. But, as a famous person once said, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time." And as I - another more famous person - once said, "If you don't teach them to read, you can fool them whenever you like."

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Isn't building bridges always a good thing? Turin and Orodreth just wanted easier transport, as long as they didn't charge tolls I don't see it being a bad thing or at least without the benefit of hindsight.

Yes, but building a bridge to a fortress you want to stay hidden is as foolish as it can be. It is absolutely unnecessary and untimely dabbing.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by alatar

That begs the question: exactly why do Dwarves build entranceways that admit dragons (Smaug) and build hallways that allow Balrogs to run about the place? If the folk are four feet-ish high, what's the need for the 'extended to the max' headroom?

Does this put Father Durin on the list?

Well, actually Dwarves have something of that in them as well... though the hallways are not, I think, the case... a Balrog would, I believe, get there anyway... but Dragons, yes - I suppose the foolishness in M-E has something in common with the Dragons...

Speaking of it... another good example of foolishness is Smaug, this does not actually fit with the topic, though he might be considered a "ruler" in his time ("The only King under the Mountain we know")... showing your chest to every Barrel-rider who comes around is certainly not a good idea...

[Morwen]

Earnur gets my vote. Ruling Gondor should have been his priority
rather than answering Witch King challenges (especially since he had already been warned against this type of thing).

RE: the Nargothrond bridge (I do hope I spelled that correctly) - was the bridge not Turin's idea so that he could wage the open warfare he preferred instead of using guerilla tactics as the elves had been doing? I know Orodreth was supposedly in charge but at the point the bridge was built Turin had acquired enough clout in the kingdom to have things done his way. Orodeth to me seems weak rather than foolish (or perhaps just unfortunate to have Hurin's son wander into his realm).

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Surely not as many as in Middle earth, but the land without stain surely had to be steam-cleaned more than a few times.

I am not sure that I follow, perhaps you can rephrase.

The best way to keep my kids out of something is to hide it in plain site.

Well, that can't work in Arda. Aman is common knowledge at least among the Eldar, who were in close contact with the numenoreans. The numenoreans themselves came into contact with the inhabitants of Aman during the war of wrath, and afterwards (with Eonwe) when they settled.

Manwe, to me, is passive.
...
It's notable that he sits on his throne.

The fading of the role of the valar is something gradual; before the ages of the trees or of the sun, there were ages uncounted. While the Silmarillion is not extremely explicit, previous version of HoME detail his role in actively fighting and defeating Melkor.

And note that Tulkas calls his brethren to fight Melkor as well.

True, but he represents violence (albeit the good of it, cf HoME X).

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I am not sure that I follow, perhaps you can rephrase.

Have no clue where my copy of the Sil is, and so this will be from memory - help me out, those with the book. Anyway, why were the elves brought West? Was this to afford the Valar with some playmates? Wasn't it also so that nothing would snatch the elves away in the dark (to make orcs)?

"Come to Aman, where it's always light and bright and no evil walks!"

Evil did exist in Aman, though bound in chains. Elves were slain as a results, first by Melkor, which one could argue had already happened in the East, but then by each other, which was the greater evil. Would elves have gotten a taste for each other's blood had they never taken the road West? How would they have turned out had they not heeded the Call?

And Manwe is guilty of false advertising, as night did fall in Aman.

Well, that can't work in Arda. Aman is common knowledge at least among the Eldar, who were in close contact with the numenoreans. The numenoreans themselves came into contact with the inhabitants of Aman during the war of wrath, and afterwards (with Eonwe) when they settled.

Agreed. However, you and I may have limits, but what of Eru's avatar? Wasn't a better solution available? My thought was to allow Men to walk onto Aman. After enough of their bodies piled up on the beach (in stasis?), eventually those on the ships would get the point. Surely, memories would fade, and every few hundred years the experiment would be repeated, but methinks in time everyone would lose interest from the monotony.

The fading of the role of the valar is something gradual; before the ages of the trees or of the sun, there were ages uncounted. While the Silmarillion is not extremely explicit, previous version of HoME detail his role in actively fighting and defeating Melkor.

But in this version we don't see him slugging it out with Melkor. Also, when Men violate the Ban, it states that he lays down his authority and lets Eru deal with it. Couldn't we have read that Manwe pleads to Eru, who then allows the Land of the Star to be swallowed by the sea via Ulmo/Manwe?

True, but he represents violence (albeit the good of it, cf HoME X).

Chopping off someone's arm for a good laugh is orc work; chopping off someone's arm when no other way is available to keep them from stabbing my child is not.

[narfforc]

The King of the Dead did his people no favours for refusing to lead them to war, he led them to thousands of years of limbo, waiting for the return of the Heir of the one that cursed them, he was a fool to waver so and seems like a pretty bad leader of men to me.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

Would elves have gotten a taste for each other's blood had they never taken the road West?

However, the chainning of Melkor for three ages brought almost to zero during that time the number of elves that became orcs (who had no problem killing elves).

How would they have turned out had they not heeded the Call?

Well, I already quoted in my first post here the various positive aspects of the elves that made to Aman - and back.

but methinks in time everyone would lose interest from the monotony.

The last paragraph of the (actual) Silmarillion warns about the power of Melkor's lies, which grow fruit ever and anon. In the letters, Tolkien comments on the fact that Men believing that serial immortality in Ea should be theirs is a chief lie of the agents of evil. Thus, I don't think your alternative is better; giving perpetual opportunity, they would keep on falling.

But in this version we don't see him slugging it out with Melkor.

Besides what I mentioned earlier, he is the first to oppose Melkor's claim of lordship; Valaquenta mentions speciffically Melkor contended with Manwe ("and the other valar"). Moreover, a great leader needn't be a factotum, always at the forefront; most of the times, if not always, there is far greater advantage to be gained from proper coordination.

chopping off someone's arm when no other way is available to keep them from stabbing my child is not.

Then again, even after Melkor's escape, the valar were still cautious to attack him, since even then he was still powerful enough to destroy Arda, as can be seen from some comments in HoME X, which I partially quoted. Permanent propensity towards violence is not the best attitude in such conditions.

[The 1,000 Reader]

I'd have to say Sauron. From the start, he was nothing but a carbon-copy Melkor who was less potent at everything. Use of his powers is shown few and far between, and nothing of extreme strength is shown. Sauron proved to be incompetent when he wasted werewolves one by one and then struck at Luthien when Huan had dropped his guard, which is senseless due to the fact that Sauron took wolf form only to fight Huan. Rather than take the form of a troll to pry Huan off or become something to small to be bitten, Sauron becomes a snake and then surrenders. Pardon my language, but he completely became Luthien's and Huan's *****.

Afterwards, his plan with the Rings failed due to underestimating the elves' senses, and the dwarves being uncorrupted. Afterwards, he waged war and lost. Numenor defeated him again, and he was too blind to realize that Numenor was in danger of Eru's wrath, thus causing him to die again. Afterwards, he struck too soon and was defeated utterly.

Finally, he was horribly arrogant regarding the One Ring and made horrible decisions based on his paranoia of the Ring being used against him by someone such as Aragorn. In the end, he died not in a struggle or a final blaze of glory, but by a lunatic tripping during his victory dance. It was as if Eru was saying "You don't even deserve a standard death."

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

Turgon!

What a foolish elf he was. . . First he builds Vinyamar and settles there with his people, he is told to secretly build a new city. . .this must have been really tiresome work and it must have gone really slow as they could not just all march there and start building. That would surely have been discovered.

When in Gondolin, because he does take proper security meassures his sister dies. . .He does not give order to pick up Hurin and so his location is discovered.

But the thing that makes him so foolish is that he goes through all this trouble to please the Valar and then he does not see it through. . .that does not make sence. The his people have laboured in vain and not only does it make him foolish it also makes him selfish. His people died because he found Gondolin ever so pretty.

Freca was a fool for going to Edoras out numbered many times and insulting the king in his own house, and maybe not so in other houses, but this was Helm.
If he really thought that Helm was so blind that he could not see through his power play, and then to react with a vieled threat, when he should have laughed along with the rest and then gave a speach about peace between Dunland and Rohan, and the prosperity that such a marriage might provide both kingdoms, an end to old grievances and new trade missions that would make them rich . . .
I could have pulled it off, but then again I'm not fat, and I am more like Helm.