Life, and Death in Arda Unmarred - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Orald · 02-24-2002, 02:31 AM

This thread concerns the Athrabeth and a letter 212(note at the end of 7th paragraph in particular) and anything else anyone wants to bring in. I first thought the letter would be good for the LotR and the Bible thread, and maybe it is, but it has other aspects as well. Hopefully it causes some discussion.

For anyone that does not have this letter I am sorry, it is rather long to give it in full.

Anyway, I see a few different views on Unfallen Man. The Elvish view was that Man was supposed to die and to surrender to it, especially Unfallen Man. The Christian view is similar, basically saying that Man should except death in the end, and asked to be received. An example of both is the Virgin Mary. Then of course there is Andreth with all her knowledge saying that before Melkor came, man did not die.

Elven-Maiden · 02-24-2002, 01:24 PM

Hmm... Very profound topc. *bites fingernails, nervously looking around* I don't think I know how to expand on this topic, but I like your comparison to the Virgin Mary. Very true, but never really thought about it like that. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Voronwe · 02-24-2002, 05:34 PM

I wrote a long in-depth post on precisely this subject a while back. I think it is currently lurking somewhere in the Silmarillion Canon Forum.

In short (since repeating the entire post would take forever) I think that the original nature of man (in Tolkien's world) was to live for many many years in Arda and then die out of choice, with no compulsion whatsoever involved. When Men were corrupted by Morgoth, and began to fear death, Eru made death unavoidable so as to save men from Morgoth's dominion. In this sense death, though seeming like a punishment for the Fall, was actually a gift.

Of course this is only my oppinion. However, letter 212 (which I had not read when I wrote the original post) does seem to support it, along with the Athrabeth of course.

Aralaithiel · 02-25-2002, 08:41 PM

I agree with you, Elven-Maiden! This subject is waaaaayyyy too deep, although I do find such topics intriguing. Maybe I'll just elvenly lurk and read the other's posts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

02-24-2002, 02:31 AM	#1
Orald Shadow of Malice Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: right behind you Posts: 843	Life, and Death in Arda Unmarred This thread concerns the Athrabeth and a letter 212(note at the end of 7th paragraph in particular) and anything else anyone wants to bring in. I first thought the letter would be good for the LotR and the Bible thread, and maybe it is, but it has other aspects as well. Hopefully it causes some discussion. For anyone that does not have this letter I am sorry, it is rather long to give it in full. Anyway, I see a few different views on Unfallen Man. The Elvish view was that Man was supposed to die and to surrender to it, especially Unfallen Man. The Christian view is similar, basically saying that Man should except death in the end, and asked to be received. An example of both is the Virgin Mary. Then of course there is Andreth with all her knowledge saying that before Melkor came, man did not die.

02-24-2002, 01:24 PM	#2
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	Hmm... Very profound topc. bites fingernails, nervously looking around I don't think I know how to expand on this topic, but I like your comparison to the Virgin Mary. Very true, but never really thought about it like that. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-24-2002, 05:34 PM	#3
Voronwe Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Gondolin Posts: 413	I wrote a long in-depth post on precisely this subject a while back. I think it is currently lurking somewhere in the Silmarillion Canon Forum. In short (since repeating the entire post would take forever) I think that the original nature of man (in Tolkien's world) was to live for many many years in Arda and then die out of choice, with no compulsion whatsoever involved. When Men were corrupted by Morgoth, and began to fear death, Eru made death unavoidable so as to save men from Morgoth's dominion. In this sense death, though seeming like a punishment for the Fall, was actually a gift. Of course this is only my oppinion. However, letter 212 (which I had not read when I wrote the original post) does seem to support it, along with the Athrabeth of course. __________________ "If you would be a real seeker after truth, you must at least once in your life doubt, as far as possible, all things." -- René Descartes

02-25-2002, 08:41 PM	#4
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	I agree with you, Elven-Maiden! This subject is waaaaayyyy too deep, although I do find such topics intriguing. Maybe I'll just elvenly lurk and read the other's posts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"