Helm's Deep Query

[Elmo]

In the film why did Aragorn not let the archers fire as soon as they got in range and why did he let the orcs do that menacing stampy thing? Less of them wouuld have got to the walls if he had started killing them as soon as possible

I agree, in all strategy type games that I have played I relish the chance to use archers asap to reduce the enemy before contact. Perhaps the Aragon had an inflated opinion of how good his elvish archer allies would be.....?

[The Might]

One explanation is that if the range was too big the archers would probably not hit anything. As is said by Gimli in the movie the Uruks had good armour, so it would make sense for Aragorn to want them to wait and shoot only when the Orcs are closer. Not enough arrows could also be a reason...however all in all it does make pretty little sense to me that he made them wait

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

how many arrows would the achers have each? at closer range the arrows would have more of an impact and they would waste less.

[ninja91]

And I dont recall Aragorn expecting the Uruks to blow the heck out the wall with a bomb. I think he was pretty confident that until the Uruks charged closer, it was safe to let them waste energy...

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

yes that bomb really messed things up.

[Elmo]

Didn't one of those old guys shoot an orc and he was practically admonished!

[MatthewM]

It's funny you mention this, because I always wondered the same thing. The way they make it look in the movie gives Aragorn ample amounts of time to shoot and cut some Uruk down. Few arrows in the arsenal is a good point.

In the book Legolas runs out of arrows during this battle.

[The Might]

However this tactic of Aragorn is irreconcilable with another thing. We can see some archers sitting on the top of the tower of the Hornburg shooting far below. The chance to hit from there would be in my opinion pretty small, still they try. Perhaps an explanation is that since Aragorn no longer was there to command them the archers shot as much as they could.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

sorry if this is off topic but why did they not bring more bombs??

[Elmo]

cause then the bad guys would have won!!!

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

cause then the bad guys would have won!!!

aragon: Haldir fall back!!!!!
Haldir: okay ill be right ......
BOOOOOOOM
(Haldir) gets blowen away

I quess the bad guys would win...

[mhagain]

I think the reason might be a homage to Bashki. Similar stuff happens in his movie (though in a different scene).

What an odd thing to do, if it is...

[Knight of Gondor]

The tactic was the same in the books. The uruks arrived and began pouring arrows onto and into the Helm's Deep, "but from behind the walls came no reply." I am guessing the reason was two-fold.

First, that despite the fact that thousands of heavily-armed uruk-hai were marching on their fortress, having burned and pillaged as they came, there was a policy of not initiating the attack.

Second, the more practical reasons of not wasting arrows, and waiting for good light and distance to make better use of them.

Originally Posted by hewhoarisesinmight

Didn't one of those old guys shoot an orc and he was practically admonished!

For firing without orders from his king or general(s).

Originally Posted by FeRaL sHaDoW

sorry if this is off topic but why did they not bring more bombs??

The technology wasn't so easy in Middle-Earth as it is here. They had, what? two? three? bombs at best. The bombs were filled with the concoction, which must have taken Saruman a long time to brew, so those bombs in and of themselves were quite an accomplishment.

[The Sixth Wizard]

Yes, in the movie we see Saruman pouring the last of the gunpowder into the bomb with a small phial as I recall. If he filled them this much at a time, it would take a while to get more than a few done by the time you were marching.

And the not firing bit was probably just dramatic effect, or wanting to save arrows.

[Rhod the Red]

Aragorn was an archer himself, so I'm sure he was confident in his calculations.

Speaking of technology, does anyone think it strange that in the three thousand or so years between the battle of the last alliance and the war of the ring, no one had invented anything? Elves still use bows and arrows, men still swing swords , dwarves still can't see over small walls etc. i.e. in only the last one hundred or so years men have taken to the skies and developed the a-bomb... or am I just taking things too seriously.....?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Jandar Trublade

Speaking of technology, does anyone think it strange that in the three thousand or so years between the battle of the last alliance and the war of the ring, no one had invented anything? Elves still use bows and arrows, men still swing swords , dwarves still can't see over small walls etc. i.e. in only the last one hundred or so years men have taken to the skies and developed the a-bomb... or am I just taking things too seriously.....?

Technological development isn't inevitable, but driven by necessity. Hence, one has to ask whether there was any need for an 'improvement' in weaponry. It could be argued that Men, Elves & Dwarves had superior weaponry to Orcs, whereas Orcs had superiority in numbers, hence, both sides could hold their own - so, no need to improve weapons technology.

Of course, one cannot rule out Elvish influence on the thinking of the other races. Elves are basically a backward looking race - the past for them was superior in every way than any possible future. They did not think in terms of 'evolution' towards a better future, but of 'devolution' from a better past - the further one moved away from the past the worse things got. Hence, the weaponry & technology of the past was, to their minds, innately superior to anything that could be developed in their own time. Even the 'technology' they did invent - Rings of Power principally - was designed to preserve the past, not to move them forward as such, because moving 'forward' was 'A Bad Thing' & took you further & further from 'perfection'.

Of course, going back to my initial point, it could be argued that it was the innate superiority of weapons technology among the 'good' side, particularly during & after the War of the Ring, that 'forced' the 'bad' side to develop more destructive technology - Saruman's (offensive) use of Gunpowder (as opposed to Gandalf's more 'creative' use of it) is one example, the statement in TH that Orcs were responsible for the invention of destructive weaponry being two examples.

In short, there was no need for any development to take place till one side found itself in desperate straits, so none did.

That said, Tolkien was not a fan of modern technology, & probably did not want such things included in his Legendarium. Of course, he toys with the idea of technological advancement among the Numenoreans - their 'flying ships' for example - but I think he decides against it for aesthetic reasons - he didn't want guns & aircraft in his secondary world anymore than he wanted them in the primary one.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by davem

That said, Tolkien was not a fan of modern technology, & probably did not want such things included in his Legendarium. Of course, he toys with the idea of technological advancement among the Numenoreans - their 'flying ships' for example - but I think he decides against it for aesthetic reasons - he didn't want guns & aircraft in his secondary world anymore than he wanted them in the primary one.

There is also the sense that ancient weapons such as axes, swords, arrows (and all the other even less savoury ones) are more heroic. Guns, aircraft, cannon, missiles all remove the soldier from battle to some extent, the latter far more than the first named weapon, of course. When the soldier does not even need to see the face of his enemy--the whites of his eyes--the nature of warfare changes. It no longer pits one soldier against his enemy, so that both are at risk, where the outcome depends upon the physical prowess and "moral fibre" of the combatants.

I think for this reason it is possible to idealise the old warrior epics as heroic battles where the outcome was determined by the courage and heroism of the combatants rather than by the machinery of their weaponry. There's something inherently unheroic and even questionable where one can kill with the push of a button without risking oneself at all, save for the possibility of carpal tunnel syndrome developing.

It is the mano e mano fighting aspect which Tolkien's view of war commemorates.

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by davem

Of course, one cannot rule out Elvish influence on the thinking of the other races. Elves are basically a backward looking race - the past for them was superior in every way than any possible future. They did not think in terms of 'evolution' towards a better future, but of 'devolution' from a better past - the further one moved away from the past the worse things got. Hence, the weaponry & technology of the past was, to their minds, innately superior to anything that could be developed in their own time. Even the 'technology' they did invent - Rings of Power principally - was designed to preserve the past, not to move them forward as such, because moving 'forward' was 'A Bad Thing' & took you further & further from 'perfection'.

Now that's a very interesting point. The same is also pretty much true of the other thousands of years since the first age, and it does seem that "invention" and "technical advancement" were doomed not to happen until the Dominion of Men began, for just the reason you've stated.

[FeRaL sHaDoW]

Originally Posted by Jandar Trublade

Speaking of technology, does anyone think it strange that in the three thousand or so years between the battle of the last alliance and the war of the ring, no one had invented anything? Elves still use bows and arrows, men still swing swords , dwarves still can't see over small walls etc. i.e. in only the last one hundred or so years men have taken to the skies and developed the a-bomb... or am I just taking things too seriously.....?

Gandalf looks up just in time to see the a-bomb dropping from the fell beasts claws.

the doors break open and goblins burst in with assault rifles

the witch king commands the battle from the air in his Black hawk.

oh and....
the men of helms deep found it had been a good investment to install bren guns on the deepling wall.

[Sir Kohran]

[QUOTE=mhagain][QUOTE=davem]Of course, one cannot rule out Elvish influence on the thinking of the other races. Elves are basically a backward looking race - the past for them was superior in every way than any possible future. They did not think in terms of 'evolution' towards a better future, but of 'devolution' from a better past - the further one moved away from the past the worse things got. Hence, the weaponry & technology of the past was, to their minds, innately superior to anything that could be developed in their own time. Even the 'technology' they did invent - Rings of Power principally - was designed to preserve the past, not to move them forward as such, because moving 'forward' was 'A Bad Thing' & took you further & further from 'perfection'.

Originally Posted by davem

Now that's a very interesting point. The same is also pretty much true of the other thousands of years since the first age, and it does seem that "invention" and "technical advancement" were doomed not to happen until the Dominion of Men began, for just the reason you've stated.

Yes - you guys got it exactly right. The Elves put so much focus on preserving their noble, tragic past that eventually their nostalgia trapped them - they couldn't move forward because their world was stuck backwards. They stay in a fixed condition for thousands of years without any real changes, and eventually they just faded away, like the world they were tying to preserve. Men are the opposite - though in many ways their triumphes and failures in the past are mostly lesser and worse than the Elves, ultimately they succeed in the long run because they are generally able to accept these wrongs and move on and continue. Men look forward to what they can do about a problem whereas Elves merely look backwards on it for the rest of time.

I think a similar historical parallel would be China. Initially, they were generally far more advanced than the people of Europe in almost every way and made many of the world's greatest achievements. But they advanced only up to a certain point - and when they reached it, they just sat there for hundreds of years in a relatively unchanging state. By the time Europeans came into contact with them, they had advanced up to the state of China and had actually surpassed them in some ways. This was part of a general trend in world history - the gradual shift in power and culture from the east to the west.

Very interesting comments regarding Elves. Never really looked at it in that way before. Still, taking the thought further and expanding, does that mean that all non human races are of such ilk, in their own unique ways, and it is only men who move toward the future. If it does its a neat way of arriving at why there are no elves et al around today. Or am I now mixing reality with fantasy...... and if so, is that a bad thing?

[Elmo]

Well Middle Earth is supposed to be the real earth so that might have been Tolkien's thinking