Sam's final journey

[dwarfguard]

After sam finished his mayorship and went to the havens it is assumed he went over the sea.But how?How many elves were left to build a ship?Who would have he had to build it?He surely couldnt have gotten there any other way.

[narfforc]

The Elves had long foresight, Galadriel or Elrond would have made provision for Sam, the reason being that by that time Bilbo would have died and they would not have wanted Frodo to be the only one of his kind on Tol Erresea. Sam was given permission to go on account of him being a Ringbearer, the Elves didnt leave all at once, and the lifespan of a hobbit is very little time for an elf to wait. To finish Tolkien may even have told you that there are still elves amongst us today.

[Formendacil]

Cirdan was still there.

As far as I know, there is NO evidence that Cirdan crossed over with Elrond, Galadriel, the Hobbits, etc.

On the other hand, there is a very clear statement (I can't lay hands on where it is, frustratingly enough), that Cirdan would remain in Middle-earth until the LAST ship departed.

It is quite clear that there were still many Elves in Middle-earth after Elrond's departure. Rivendell was still populated under the rule of Elladan and Elrohir, Celeborn remained with the remnants of Lorien. The Haven Elves themselves don't seem to have been thinned too much. Legolas and his Elves, and well as Thranduil's people remained. And as far as we can tell, although Gildor had left, there were still some Wandering Companies in Eriador.

Also, as Sam tells Elanor (and us) in the Epilogue (unpublished, but indicative of Tolkien's feelings on the subject), there would be Elves (even some Noldor at that) in Middle-earth for many long years to come. Indeed, I would say that there are STILL Elves in this middle-earth of ours, and that means that Cirdan is still here somewhere, probably at some small fishing town on the British coast.

It would appear plain to me that it was Cirdan who oversaw the building of Sam's boat. Perhaps there was a company of Elves ready to depart Middle-earth at that time anyway, and Sam arrived just in time to catch a ride, not unlike Bilbo and Frodo.

[Fingolfin II]

Very interesting, Formendacil! I always thought Cirdan departed over the Sea with Galadriel and Co., but now I'm not so sure thanks to your well-structured argument. However, it says in the Prologue something to the effect that 'It is not known when Celeborn finally sought the Grey Havens and with him went the last memory of the Elder Days from Middle-Earth' (don't have the book on me; it went something like that though). Now, if this is the case that means that Cirdan must have already left Middle-Earth or 'faded away', if Celeborn was the last person who lived through the First Age to depart from Middle-Earth.

Back to orginal question, though. I'm sure Cirdan wasn't the only shipwright and that there were other Elves who had not yet departed Middle-Earth who could build Sam (and themselves too) a ship. Or perhaps a ship was already waiting for him, like narfforc has suggested. Remember, there was at least one person who we know was able to build a ship- Legolas. In the Appendices it says that after Aragorn died, Legolas built a grey ship in Ithilien, sailed over Rauros and thus passed over Sea and was rumoured to have taken Gimli with him.

[Hot, crispy nice hobbit]

Guys, I believe I know where this was stated.

"Take this ring, Master," he said, "for your labours will be heavy; but it will support you in the weariness that you have taken upon yourself. For this is the Ring of Fire, and with it you may rekindle hearts in a world that grows chill. But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."

This is at Third Age, Appendix B of LOTR, at the part where Cirdan gave Gandalf Narya. So it is to be presumed that he stayed until every single ship left.

In fact, where we given any evidence that there were no more elves in the 4th Age? Hardly. But that does not conclude that those elves that prefer to stay are now stranded on Arda.

[Boromir88]

Celeborn did end up leaving, but I think it was sometime long after Sam had left.

It is said that Celeborn went to dwell there (Rivendell), after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder days in Middle-earth.

I also thought that somewhere it said Cirdan remained until all the elves (or the ones that could and would) left too. But, I'll have to look for it, if it's even there.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Boromir88

Celeborn did end up leaving, but I think it was sometime long after Sam had left.

I also thought that somewhere it said Cirdan remained until all the elves (or the ones that could and would) left too. But, I'll have to look for it, if it's even there.

Actually, for all that we know, Celeborn and Cirdan left on the same boat. I'm not necessarily tied to that idea, but it would explain the statements concerning both without conflicting with the other.

[Lhunardawen]

But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you. (Cirdan to Gandalf)

Now what does "I will await you" mean as Cirdan said it? He would wait until Gandalf finishes his task and have his ship back to Valinor prepared by then? (Ooh...more Elven foresight!) Or is it, "I will wait, then we'll go back to Valinor together?"

[Essex]

Let's talk about Sam. He's far more interesting that those Elves anyway......

In my view he DID depart for the West, as why would Tolkien put this in the Tale of the Years if it didn't happen? I can understand why Tolkien wrote it this way, as isn't it actually Hobbits who have written and kept the book (and therefore the tales of the years) up to date? Therefore, if they didn't see him actually depart, they would 'presume' this was the case as he was heading for the Havens when he gave the Book to Elanor. ie

1482 - Death of Mistress Rose, wife of Master Samwise, on Mid-year's Day. On September 22 Master Sam-wise rides out from Bag End. He comes to the Tower Hills, and is last seen by Elanor, to whom he gives the Red Book afterwards kept by the Fairbairns. Among them the tradition is handed down from Elanor that Samwise passed the Towers, and went to the Grey Havens and passed over Sea, last of the Ring-bearers

And of course Sam left on the same day he did for his other journey, so romantically I believe he was taking another long journey, this time his last.

But I've always wondered if Sam saw Frodo again. In my heart I would like to think so, but isn't Frodo's journey to the West signifying his death? I'm sure someone's mentioned on this site that that's what Tolkien alluded to in one of his Letters.

It was 61 years between Frodo and Sam leaving Middle-earth. I'm not sure if Frodo could have lasted that long with his wounds of Sword, Sting and Bite to contend with. I hope he did, but I wonder if Sam's next view of Frodo was his Grave.........

[Neferchoirwen]

I haven't the appendices yet, and I do think it's romantic, even poetic, that Sam left on Sept the 22. I believe they did see each other, Essex. Frodo's final journey into the West is more like a time for him to heal. He needed it, and the elves, as well as Gandalf, knew it.

That's what I think, at least.

[Mithalwen]

[QUOTE=Formendacil]

Also, as Sam tells Elanor (and us) in the Epilogue (unpublished, but indicative of Tolkien's feelings on the subject), there would be Elves (even some Noldor at that) in Middle-earth for many long years to come. Indeed, I would say that there are STILL Elves in this middle-earth of ours, and that means that Cirdan is still here somewhere, probably at some small fishing town on the British coast.

QUOTE]

Ooh what a fab thought ... it would have to be Cornwall or Wales - westward and Celtic (just in case he slipped into Sindarin ).

[Essex]

For me it's got to be Southend-on-Sea!!!!!

(a little joke from an Essex boy to my countrymen and women)

But, back to Frodo either healing or Dying. What about Saruman foretelling
him (rather nastily, I believe) that he would have neither a healthy life or a long one?

[Kuruharan]

Saruman was full of crap.

[Guinevere]

0riginally posted by Essex:
but isn't Frodo's journey to the West signifying his death? I'm sure someone's mentioned on this site that that's what Tolkien alluded to in one of his Letters.

Quite the contrary, Essex! (This was rather Jackson's and Boyen's idea! )

from letter 181:

The passage over Sea is not Death.
The mythology is Elf-centred. According to it there was at first an actual earthly paradise, home and realm of the Valar, as a physical part of the earth. (.....)
Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar.

from letter 325:

As the Ship vanished, it left the physical world. There was no return.
-The Elves who took this road and those few "mortals" who by special grace went with them, had abandoned the "History of the world" and could play no further part in it.
-The angelic immortals , the Valar or Maiar (such as Olórin = Gandalf) needed no transport unless they for a time remained incarnate, and they could, if allowed or commanded, return.
-As for Frodo or other mortals, they could only dwell in Aman for a limited time - whether brief or long. The Valar had neither the power nor the right to confer "immortality" upon them. Their sojorn was a "purgatory", but one of peace and healing and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will) to destinations of which the Elves knew nothing.

even more detailed, concerning Frodo (and Bilbo) is letter 246:

Frodo was sent or allowed to pass over Sea to heal him - if that could be done, before he died. He would have eventually to "pass away": no mortal could, or can, abide for ever on earth, or within Time. So he went both to a purgatory and to a reward, for a while: a period of reflection and peace and a gaining of a truer understanding of his position in littleness and in greatness, spent still in Time amid the natural beauty of "Arda Unmarred", the Earth unspoiled by evil.

Bilbo went too. No doubt as a completion of the plan due to Gandalf himself. Gandalf had a very great affection for Bilbo. His companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake - it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one who had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise, without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person that Frodo most loved.
But Bilbo also needed and deserved the favour on his own account. He bore still the mark of the Ring that needed to be finally erased: a trace of pride and personal possessivness.(...) As for reward for his part, it is difficult to feel that his lilfe would be complete without an experience of "pure Elvishness", and the opportunity of hearing the legends and histories in full, the fragments of which had so delighted him.

Too bad Tolkien didn't mention Sam in this letter... but surely he wouldn't have Sam travel to the undying lands only to see Frodo's grave! That would be too cruel!!

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Too bad Tolkien didn't mention Sam in this letter... but surely he wouldn't have Sam travel to the undying lands only to see Frodo's grave! That would be too cruel!!

Besides which, it was ONLY 61 years since Frodo and Bilbo had departed. Frodo would only be in his 110s, old, but not yet ancient for a hobbit. And in the wholesome, semi-divine air of Eressia, even Bilbo might well still be alive (making him 192 or so!!!). Also, in Gandalf's explanation of the Ring's effects, he says that a Ringbearer does not obtain or acquire "more life", but rather that what he has is "stretched". He also says that once the Ring is given up, the Ringbearer would just pick up where he left off (my words, and interpretation).

I've always taken that passage to mean that Bilbo, once he gave the Ring, was essentially still a 50 year-old hobbit. Thus, when he went over to Eressia, though 131 in Hobbit years, he was the physical equivalent of an 70 year-old hobbit. Old, certainly, but not the mummified old creature shown in the movies. Frodo, by the same system, would be only about 35- YOUNGER than Sam.

I'm not sure if that conclusion of mine is borne out by the Books, but that is the understanding it gave me.

[Dûrbelethwen]

I always thought the same thing about how ring bearers aged. This would also explain why Gollom was still alive even though he was over 500 years old.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Dûrbelethwen

I always thought the same thing about how ring bearers aged. This would also explain why Gollom was still alive even though he was over 500 years old.

Hmm...

I forgot Gollum. Using the same reasoning as above, if we assume that Gollum was around 30 (being hobbit-stock, that would make him a young adult). It was then nearly 80 years from when Gollum lost the Ring until the LotR, so Gollum would be 110ish!! That's pretty spry for someone with his lifestyle!!!

Maybe he was quite young at the time he got/found/killed for the Ring. Say 15-20. Even so, that puts him in the 90-100 range. Certainly something to think about.

[Guinevere]

originally posted by Formendacil
He also says that once the Ring is given up, the Ringbearer would just pick up where he left off (my words, and interpretation).
I've always taken that passage to mean that Bilbo, once he gave the Ring, was essentially still a 50 year-old hobbit.

Quite right. But what happened after the One Ring was destroyed ? I think that then, the real age of the person would show!
Arwen told Frodo about Bilbo:

For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind."

I wonder what would have happened with Gollum after the destruction of the Ring, if he hadn't fallen in the lava with it.. Would he perhaps have crumbled to dust?

Back to topic! (Sam). Tolkien states in his letter (about mortals in Aman)

and they would eventually pass away (die at their own desire and of free will)

If they die "at their own desire and of free will" (like Aragorn and the old kings of Númenor) then Frodo surely would wait for Sam to join him! After all, he had, at his departure, told Sam "your time may come".

[Elmo]

I'd have thought that Frodo because he went to the undying lands would have died sooner then when he was on Middle Earth because apparently mortals can't cope in Valinor

[Thenamir]

Interesting point, hewhoarisesinmight. Note what the Numenoreans are told by the Valar -- if they came to Valinor, they would only "weary and burn out quicker" (nice euphemism, that). How very kind of them to let Sam, Frodo and Bilbo partake of such "healing".

[Holbytlass]

Perhaps it's one of those contradictions that either Tolkien didn't notice or didn't change. Or perhaps that was said to the Numenoreans as a bit of a scare tactic to keep away. Not unlike perseption of heaven being the best so why isn't everyone that believes in it killing themselves to get there sooner and so they are told that suicide is a sin.

[Folwren]

Frodo had to have lived until Sam got there! It is just too depressing to even think otherwise.

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Formendacil

Also, as Sam tells Elanor (and us) in the Epilogue (unpublished, but indicative of Tolkien's feelings on the subject), there would be Elves (even some Noldor at that) in Middle-earth for many long years to come.

Where can one read this unpublished Epilogue? I one of the HoME volumes? I don't recall it, but would LOVE to read it!

[mhagain]

Originally Posted by Sardy

Where can one read this unpublished Epilogue? I one of the HoME volumes? I don't recall it, but would LOVE to read it!

Yup, in Sauron Defeated, if I remember correctly.

Back to the Ring.

It's evident that the Ring had a much greater effect on Smeagol, because he was mean spirited to begin with, and began his ownership of it with murder. In fact, I'd make so bold as to say that he would have been at the same stage of enslavement by it as soon as he saw it (i.e. he wanted it, and wasn't prepared to let anyone else have it) as Frodo was when he got to the Crack ("the Ring is mine!") Bilbo on the other hand was freely able to give it up even after 60 years.

As a result of that, it's effect in delaying the ageing of Bilbo and (to a lesser extent) Frodo would have been considerably less, and it's highly unlikely that a 500 year lifespan was going to be their lot.

Nonetheless, it did have an effect on them. So much so that they were unable to live out the rest of their lives in spiritual peace. Moreso on Frodo, on account of weakening by his other wounds (the most critical of which appears to have been the Morgul knife). In Sam's case, he had difficulty handing it back even after so short an ownership. I've no idea how long more he could have gone before he would flat-out have been incapable of doing so, but I'd speculate "not very".

Going West was an opportunity to attempt to shrug off the effects in "Arda Unmarred" (and this is where reading the Silm and HoME comes in useful), where no illness can come. The obvious long term effect would have been to return F & B to the "unfallen" state of Man, where they would voluntarily give up their live. It's difficult to say how long this may have taken, and even more difficult to say how long before they would have surrendered their lives after that.

If Sam had gone (and I believe JRRT left that one deliberately open) no doubt the same fate was in store for him, and part of the healing would have been a release from his "dependency" on his Master.

Phew!

[Mithalwen]

Remember that as Ringbearers they weren't quite normal mortals. Maybe it was like Ritalin....which has a different effect on ADHD sufferers than other people..

The Numenoreans were greedy for life whereas the mortal ringbearers wearied of it.... maybe the wonders of the undying lands made the greedy mortals worse but encouraged the world weary to enjoy their normal span?

[The Sixth Wizard]

Originally Posted by Guinevere

Quite the contrary, Essex! (This was rather Jackson's and Boyen's idea!

Yes BUT before a man goes to heaven/whatever he must first spend some time in Mandos (this is what Beren does anyway), and hobbits being spawn of men might do the same thing. So they would see a far green country under a swift sunrise... at least at first...

What about the Avari? They haven't ever been over the sea, nor are they bound to fade like other elves. What happens to them, as they don't want to go over to Valinor? Do they just spend out the rest of their long lives until they die in tragic accidents? Does that mean that there are theoretically some around today ?

I don't think that there is any exact way of measuring how much ringbearers should age. I think of it like a drug, some are affected right away, some take a while to fall under the influence, some are affected more, but they all get there in the end...

[Raynor]

If Sam had gone (and I believe JRRT left that one deliberately open) no doubt the same fate was in store for him, and part of the healing would have been a release from his "dependency" on his Master.

If we consider the letters:

Originally Posted by Letter #154

But in this story it is supposed that there may be certain rare exceptions or accommodations (legitimately supposed? there always seem to be exceptions); and so certain 'mortals', who have played some great part in Elvish affairs, may pass with the Elves to Elvenhome. Thus Frodo (by the express gift of Arwen) and Bilbo, and eventually Sam (as adumbrated by Frodo); and as a unique exception Gimli the Dwarf, as friend of Legolas and 'servant' of Galadriel.

Edit:

What about the Avari? They haven't ever been over the sea, nor are they bound to fade like other elves. What happens to them, as they don't want to go over to Valinor? Do they just spend out the rest of their long lives until they die in tragic accidents? Does that mean that there are theoretically some around today ?

The avari too are meant to fade away, due to the: burning of the hroa by the fea; the marring of Melkor. IIRC from Quendi and Eldar, their bodies would fade and they would become "ghosts", visible at will to human eyes.

[mhagain]

You are quite correct re: Sam, but I personally (others may differ) wouldn't consider Letters as being in any way "canonical", but rather containing condensed explanations of JRRTs conceptions of the way things are at the time the letter was written. As we all know, he did change his viewpoint (often quite radically) on a regular basis, particularly in later years, and particularly with regard to some of the more "core" features of his mythos.

I think the Avari element came from Laws and Customs. But they were also subject to "death" (in the form of bodily destruction), and would be summoned to Mandos. They could refuse (it was unlawful for the Valar/Maiar to compel the spirit of any of the Children in any way), and a substantial number of them did.