Sauron the Unnamed... really?

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

There is one thing I noticed when reading first chapter of the Two Towers. I haven't found any topics devoted to this on the Downs, which surprised me, because I consider it rather important, and I think someone (maybe ninja91 in some Mouth of Sauron thread, if I recall correctly) mentioned it, but just by-the-way.

Just to refresh it, this is the moment when Aragorn, Legolas and Gimli search through the dead bodies of the Orcs slain by Boromir and find four Uruk-hai from Isengard among them:

Upon their shields they bore a strange device: a small white hand in the centre of a black field; on the front of their iron helms was set an S-rune, wrought of some white metal.
'I have not seen these tokens before,' said Aragorn. 'What do they mean?'
'S is for Sauron,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'
'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken,' said Aragorn. 'And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service of Barad-dûr use the sign of the Red Eye.' He stood for a moment in thought. 'S is for Saruman, I guess,' he said at length.

In the quote, it really struck me that there are two contradictions with what we know from elsewhere from the books, and they are closely following one right after the other. These are Aragorn's "Sauron does not permit his name to be spelt or spoken" and right before it, Legolas' "Sauron does not use Elf-runes."

Let's stop at Legolas' point at first. The first thing, which popped up in my mind, was that we all know Sauron actually does use Elf-runes. Where? On the Ring, of course. But, humm, don't be hasty. In the Appendices, Tolkien says:

The alphabets were of two main, and in origin independent kinds: the Tengwar or Tîw, here translated as 'letters'; and the Certar or Cirth, translated as 'runes'. The Tengwar were devised for writing with brush or pen, and the squared forms of inscriptions were in their case derivative from the written forms. The Certar were devised and mostly used only for scratched or incised inscriptions.

The letters on the Ring are tengwar. But the letters on the Uruk-hai shields are described as "an S-rune". Legolas also speaks about Elf-runes. So, it would seem, that Sauron actually uses Elf-letters (tengwar, like the ones on the Ring) but does not use Elf-runes. There are two things which trouble me anyway:
1) I always thought that Sauron's not using Elvish runes was supposed to convey a meaning that Sauron does not use the "pure" things, like that he does not use white. But what is a difference between using runes and letters? He does not use runes, but uses letters on the Ring? Seems to degrade the whole point to me. Like if you say you don't eat meat and eat just fish (as many "vegetarians" do - excuse me, please, if anyone of you is the case ).
2) According to the Appendices, both the (elvish) letters and the runes were used in M-E by almost every nation in Third Age: tengwar commonly used by all the Westron-users (no problem, Sauron wouldn't have to use them) and cirth "became known to many peoples, to Men and Dwarves, and even to Orcs, all of whom altered them to suit their purposes and according to their skill or lack of it". "The scripts and letters used in the Third Age were all ultimately of Eldarin origin," it is also said - so I cannot imagine orc runes (or special for-Black Speech-developed runes) being that different from original. The "altering" I imagine as adding one line here, one line there, swiching I for O, because it is more common in this or that language, and in Orcish adding a separate sybmol for "sh". But how could you know that what are you looking at are elvish, and not orc runes? If the rune for "S" was the same in all the versions (elvish, dwarven, orcish...), how could Aragorn have known that this is elvish and not orcish rune? And if elvish and orcish the runes' meanings were different, how could then he be sure that it is elvish S for Sauron and not, let's say, orcish B for Boss?

To the second thing. Aragorn says that 'Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken'. The very same Aragorn hears on his own ears:

'But this time thou hast stuck out thy nose too far, Master Gandalf; and thou shalt see what comes to him who sets his foolish webs before the feet of Sauron the Great.'

as well as

'For Sauron does not love spies, and what his fate shall be depends now on your choice.'

and most of all

'The rabble of Gondor and its deluded allies shall withdraw at once beyond the Anduin, first taking oaths never again to assail Sauron the Great in arms, open or secret. All lands east of Anduin shall be Sauron's for ever, solely. (...) But they shall help to rebuild Isengard which they have wantonly destroyed, and that shall be Sauron's, and there his lieutenant shall dwell...'

These are the words of the Mouth of Sauron, as you might have guessed, in "The Black Gate Opens" in RotK. And, oh, I almost forgot this:

'Do not bandy words in your insolence with the Mouth of Sauron!' he cried. 'Surety you crave! Sauron gives none.'

Emphasises mine. Now I don't know what this fella thinks he is, but he certainly trespasses the Commandments, now does he Note please also, that the name "Sauron" was first spoken by the Mouth in this scene, it is not like that e.g. Gandalf used it and the Mouth later stuck to it.

Okay, I know it is possible that Mouth of Sauron was actually of such a high rank, that he was even allowed by the Great Lord Sauron to use His Great Name. But I actually ever thought that Sauron didn't use this name because of it was actually disgraceful: Sauron means "Abhorred" or "Abomination", this would be the same as calling your lord "the Enemy" (or even worse). Now this seems pretty daring from the Mouth to call his (from what we know, obviously beloved) master "Abominable". Or perhaps he was just showing off before the Captains of the West? (not mentioning that I'd expect him to burst in anger and shout "Shut up!" when Gandalf or someone else uses the name of Sauron)

And one last thing, it is said that MoS:

himself had forgotten [his real name] and he said: 'I am the Mouth of Sauron.'

Which is trespassing of the Sauron's "Third (or Second) Commandment" as well (and he already says is in the above quote). But I wonder, how did the Men and Orcs in Mordor call him? "Shagrat, take this letter to the Mouth of... You-Know-Who". Or "Take this letter to the Mouth." (? I certainly wouldn't speak like that in front of the mouth... the Mouth!!!) Or, maybe most likely: "Take this letter from the White Hand to the Mouth of the Great Eye." (We are all parts of the Body of Morgoth!) Or just "Take this to that thirty-seventh guy in black from the left?"

So, what do you think of it? Is there a logical explanation for these problems? And how comes that both these things are stated right after one another, in a scene which obviously, apart from informing us that Saruman is here, conveys a message that Sauron does not use certain things? Did Tolkien just scribble this scene late at night with half-sleeping mind, then fell to bed and never revised it? What is your opinion?

[Raynor]

Concerning the use of the "right names" of the valar and maiar, it is stated in Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI:

Originally Posted by Note on the Language of the Valar

Now the names that we have for the Valar or the Maiar, whether adapted from the Valarin or translated, are not right names but titles, referring to some function or character of the person; for though the Valar have right names, they do not reveal them. Save only in the case of Orome.

Sauron is definitely a title and not a right name. The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales and the letters (heck, even LotR) all reffer to Sauron as being good in the begining (letter #131 goes as far as portraying him following Aule in Valinor) - and a being of good would definitely not chose the name The Abhorred.

[Aiwendil]

Raynor - I agree; "Sauron" cannot have been his right name. But this only deepens the mystery. For in the passage Legate of Amon Lanc cited, Aragorn clearly seems to think that "Sauron" is his right name. One would not expect Aragorn to be mistaken about a thing like that.

[davem]

Either there's some mystery to unravel here, or Tolkien slipped up. There are mistakes in the text, points where Tolkien simply forgot what he had written, or failed to take into account changes he made during revision. The most obvious as regards the passage you quote is:

He knelt for a while, bent with weeping, still clasping
Boromir’s hand. So it was that Legolas and Gimli found
him. They came from the western slopes of the hill, silently,
creeping through the trees as if they were hunting. Gimli
had his axe in hand, and Legolas his long knife: all his arrows
were spent. When they came into the glade they halted in
amazement; and then they stood a moment with heads
bowed in grief, for it seemed to them plain what had
happened.
‘Alas!’ said Legolas, coming to Aragorn’s side. ‘We have
hunted and slain many Orcs in the woods, but we should
have been of more use here. (Departure of Boromir)

The postern was closed again, the iron door was barred and piled inside with stones. When all were safe within, Éomer turned: 'I thank you, Gimli son of Glóin!' he said. 'I did not know that you were with us in the sortie. But oft the unbidden guest proves the best company. How came you there?'
......'I followed you to shake off sleep,' said Gimli; 'but I looked on the hillmen and they seemed overlarge for me, so I sat beside the stone to see your sword-play.'
......'I shall not find it easy to repay you,' said Éomer.
......'There may be many a chance ere the night is over,' laughed the Dwarf. 'But I am content. Till now I have hewn naught but wood since I left Moria.'"(Helm's Deep

[Raynor]

Then again, when we first see Legolas and Gimli after Boromir falls, only the elf seems to have actually fought ("all his arrows were spent"), while the dwarf may simply have been hunting (no actual slaying). Legolas might give him credit for slaying too, but Gimli sets the matters right later. It don't think it would have been appropiate for the dwarf to mention at that time that "hey, errr, my feet were to short to catch up with any of the retreating orcs, but I am glad you think of me that way ".

[davem]

Originally Posted by Raynor

Then again, when we first see Legolas and Gimli after Boromir falls, only the elf seems to have actually fought ("all his arrows were spent"), while the dwarf may simply have been hunting (no actual slaying). Legolas might give him credit for slaying too, but Gimli sets the matters right later. It don't think it would have been appropiate for the dwarf to mention at that time that "hey, errr, my feet were to short to catch up with any of the retreating orcs, but I am glad you think of me that way ".

Or maybe he forgot his axes & had to kill the Orcs with his bare hands

I think the consensus is that Tolkien slipped there (as he did in other places in the story - like the distance from Bucklebury Ferry to Brandywine Bridge which is ten, not twenty miles & amended to that in the 50th Anniversary edition). The problem with simply accepting every statement as factually true & rejecting any possibility of a simple mistake on the author's part is that one has to start inventing sub text & backstory - if you're right about Legolas giving Gimli credit for kills he didn't make then we have to accept Legolas just made that story up on the spot & that Gimli didn't bother to correct him - why - embarrassment? Legolas comes across as patronising, Gimli as willing to accept credit for acts he had no part in. In other words the whole dynamic of the scene is changed, & its not about the death of Boromir but rather about the subtle & complex inter-relationship of Legolas & Gimli.

On the whole I think its easier to assume Tolkien forgot what he'd written earlier. Same thing, I think, with the Sauron never using his true name thing. This has folkloric roots, in that one's true name could be used to gain power over one.

Of course, its entirely possible that when Aragorn & Legolas were speaking it was true that Sauron never used his proper name (wanting to keep his actions secret as far as possible - or something like that) & that by the time of the confrontation at the Black Gate he no longer cared, as he thought he was about to win (or lose, if Aragorn had the Ring - but either way secrecy no longer mattered).

[Raynor]

It does seem that the two statements are irreconciliable; in note #21 to the Helm's Deep version of the HoME VIII, it is said that the initial statement by Legolas in the Departure of Boromir was simply "'Alas! We came when we heard the horn, but we are too late. Are you much hurt?", with no refference to slaying. According to the Reader's Companion, Gimli's statement wasn't corrected in the 2004 edition because it became too 'famous' (?).

[Thinlómien]

It's all logical, Legate, if you think of it. When Legolas says "Nay! Sauron does not use the Elf-runes", I think he simply means that Sauron does not use (a) elf-rune(s) as his symbol(s), but he does not mean Sauron wouldn't use them elsewhere (the ring etc.).
I wonder if the Ring's script being in tengwar has something to do with Eregion and gwaith-i-mírdain...?

And about the "international s-rune"... For Legolas, the rune was/seemed an Elvish rune, not any other system's rune, since he is an elf himself. It's like a today's western european or american or australian person would see the symbol "s" somewhere, you'd automatically think of the western letter "s", not some snake-shaped hieroglyph, that's happen to mean "s" too... Okay, that was a bad example, but I hope you got my point. And Aragorn (and Gimli) just did not see a need to comment it could be a rune of another system's, since that was of no importance right then. (Aragorn could maybe have even "recognised" the rune as elvish the way Legolas did, as he grew up in Rivendell among the Elves.)

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

It's all logical, Legate, if you think of it. When Legolas says "Nay! Sauron does not use the Elf-runes", I think he simply means that Sauron does not use (a) elf-rune(s) as his symbol(s), but he does not mean Sauron wouldn't use them elsewhere (the ring etc.).

Ah, yes, it might be that way. Actually I was influenced by my theory that Sauron didn't use elven runes at all, just because they were too much "pure" for him (as much as he didn't use white: he just hated it, perhaps).

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

And about the "international s-rune"... For Legolas, the rune was/seemed an Elvish rune, not any other system's rune, since he is an elf himself. It's like a today's western european or american or australian person would see the symbol "s" somewhere, you'd automatically think of the western letter "s", not some snake-shaped hieroglyph, that's happen to mean "s" too... Okay, that was a bad example, but I hope you got my point. And Aragorn (and Gimli) just did not see a need to comment it could be a rune of another system's, since that was of no importance right then. (Aragorn could maybe have even "recognised" the rune as elvish the way Legolas did, as he grew up in Rivendell among the Elves.)

I understand. But this does not answer the question why would Legolas think that this what he sees is an Elf rune which Sauron would never use. If we, for example, presume that the symbol used by the Orcs was no.34 or 35 from the Angerthas table in LotR: Appendix E, then it would be S in Elvish, but Gimli (unless he, for some reason, read it also elvish) would consider it being "H" (since it would be H in his own language - as you showed in your example). I don't see any reason why Gimli would consider orc-runes being elvish: As you showed, he would probably read the rune the way he was used to. Now note, that the meaning of the rune was actually first mentioned by Gimli. If the runes used were indeed these presented in LotR (elven Certhas Daeron), the dialogue must have looked like this to make sense:

'I have not seen these tokens before,' said Aragorn. 'What do they mean?'
'H is for High Orcs,' said Gimli. 'That is easy to read.'
'Not necessarily,' said Aragorn. 'It could also be S for Sauron in Elf-runes.'
'Nay!' said Legolas. 'Sauron does not use the Elf-runes.'
Aragorn nodded. 'You are right, Legolas. I forgot. Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken.'

But it still does not make sense why would then be necessary to interpretate the symbol as an Elf-rune "S for Sauron". If at once the three friends would come to the conclusion that not all runes in all languages mean the same, they could think of that it could be also an Orc-rune, meaning something they have no clue of. Then they could just wonder about the strange similarity of this rune to "S for Sauron", ultimately revealing (due to the white color) that it actually really is an elf rune and it means Saruman.

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

I wonder if the Ring's script being in tengwar has something to do with Eregion and gwaith-i-mírdain...?

Possibly...? A good point however, I'll have to think about it. But I'm in a hurry right now, maybe later.

[Thinlómien]

Good point, Legate. That's weird indeed. Maybe Gimli thought Elvish anyway, since elvish was more widely used in general or used more often on such emblems/symbols/whatevers? That's the only reason I'm able to come up with.