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01-23-2007, 12:54 AM | #1 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 17
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Isildur's Bane
Hello,
I am trying to determine whether Denethor knew that the "Isildur's Bane" from Boromir's dream was indeed the One Ring before he sent Boromir to Rivendell. According to the movie he did know this, but of course the movies aren't known for their accuracy. When Boromir arrives at Rivendell and goes to the Council of Elrond, he recites his dream and asks for its meaning. When it is revealed to him that Isildur's Bane is the One Ring and has been found, he expresses doubt that the ring Frodo has is indeed Sauron's ring, until its whole history has been told. But the details are fuzzy on whether he actually knew that "Isildur's Bane" referred to that ring until Elrond said: "Behold! Isildur's Bane!" The fact that Boromir expresses doubt as to the validity of Frodo's ring leads me to believe Denethor never told Boromir that the ring had been found, as it is stated in the movie. But this does not mean Denethor did not know about the ring - he may have just kept the information from Boromir. Later in the trilogy (I can't remember exactly where), Gandalf says that in the time Boromir was away, Denethor must have given much thought to the term "Isildur's Bane", which leads me to believe Gandalf believed that Denethor did not know what the term meant initially. But this raises the question: how can it be that the people of Gondor did not know what was meant by "Isildur's Bane"? Surely the history of Isildur's death and the losing of the ring must have been preserved in Gondor. However they may not have known that it was the ring that betrayed Isildur and thus got the name "Isildur's Bane". Later, in ROTK, Faramir returns to Gondor and tells Denethor that he let the two halfings go to Cirith Ungol. Of course Denethor knew about these two from his talk with Pippon so he could have guessed that they had the ring which is basically what he tells Faramir. So at some point between Boromir leaving Gondor (or even before this) and Faramir returning Denethor learned that the ring had been found, but it is never stated exactly when he realized this. So my question is basically, when did Denethor learn that the ring had been found? |
01-23-2007, 02:12 AM | #2 |
Animated Skeleton
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Vsetin Czech Republic
Posts: 36
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In the Council of Elrond, Gandalf stated that, while the records of Isildur and the Ring had been preserved in Gondor, he guessed that they were unknown to Denethor.
I assume that sometime after sending Boromir off, Denethor might have found the records and figured it out. It's also possible that Denethor did not know it was the One Ring per se, but figured(as did Faramir) that it must be a thing of great power. I have never thought that Denethor knew at Boromir's departure that Isildur's Bane was the One Ring.
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01-23-2007, 06:04 AM | #3 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: In that far land beyond the Sea
Posts: 7,431
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Quote:
Faramir actually says to Frodo: Quote:
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01-23-2007, 10:04 AM | #4 | ||||||
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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Gandalf specifically says that Denethor apparently did not know the whole story of the Ring and he guessed that the scrolls of Isildur were read only by himself and Saruman:
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So it still is not clear whether he read the mind of Faramir, who figured out that this was the One Ring, or whether he knew it much earlier, in which case Gandalf seems to be mistaken about what Denethor knew early on. My supposition would be that he did not know the story of the Ring when he sent Boromir to Rivendell, but that he deduced it during later events, perhaps using the Palantir to read the mind of Faramir, since there is explicit reference to Denethor knowing much of what passed between Faramir and Frodo...
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' Last edited by CSteefel; 01-23-2007 at 10:33 AM. |
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01-23-2007, 03:23 PM | #5 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Halls of Mandos
Posts: 332
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I always got the impression that Faramir merely told about the Ring when he detailed his conversations with Frodo before his father and Gandalf. But maybe he didn't. I can't say, not having the book in front of me. I need a key chain that has a miniature copy of LOTR on it!
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01-23-2007, 06:35 PM | #6 | |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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It's possible that this is true. It is said that Faramir "told his tale..." So perhaps this did include the details of the Ring, but maybe not, since Denethor shortly says
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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01-23-2007, 07:24 PM | #7 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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What's interesting about Isildur's Bane, is that it doesn't seem like the Gondorians at this time understood it was The One Ring. Legate gives Faramir's answer to Frodo and it always looked to me like Faramir attributed Isildur's Bane to the Orc arrows that killed him...then later upon finding out Frodo had Sauron's Ring he surmises that this was Isildur's bane. However, from the quote that Legate gives, it certainly appears that Faramir at first thought Isildur's Bane was the Orc arrows that killed him, then through some consideration he reaches the conclusion that it was actually the Ring.
What Boromir tells the Council about possibly what Denethor knew: Quote:
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Basically I'm saying that Denethor probably knew more than what he had told his sons. Or at least this riddle of 'Isildur's Bane' began to trouble him and he went further to investigate. Denethor definitely had the access to the records in Gondor, he even had access to records that no one else did, and only the Steward could view...for example all the lore in Gondor concerning the palantiri. Where if I remember correctly (from Unfinished Tales; The palantiri) only the Steward and the Steward's heir had access to these. Denethor definitely had access to all the 'secret' accounts hidden from the rest of the Gondorian public. Boromir says he's Gondor's greatest Loremaster, and he and Faramir actually went to their father to try to decipher this riddle. Denethor is no chump and no oblivious idiot when it comes to matters concerning his Kingdom. Isildur's Bane would definitely be a matter concerning his Kingdom, and I think Denethor would be aware of this...he may have had some guesses and thoughts before, but I'm sure he ended up figuring out the answers...some descriptions of Denethor: Quote:
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Last edited by Boromir88; 01-23-2007 at 07:27 PM. |
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01-23-2007, 09:10 PM | #8 |
Wight
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 204
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I am still not convinced Denethor knew the whole story of the Ring when he sent Boromir off to Rivendell. It seems to me that there is abundant evidence that he figured things out along the way. And I don't see that Faramir told him everything about his meeting with Frodo, since Denethor makes specific mention of the "half said" and "unsaid" things. But one cannot rule out that his prior knowledge allowed him to interpret Faramir's story correctly. Or, he was able to make use of the Palantir to gain knowledge of the Ring as events unfolded.
This last point leads me to a suggestion, which is that the Ring actually drove Denethor mad, not the solely the struggles with Sauron using the Palantir and the death of his oldest son. Normally, proximity to the Ring is apparently required for it to corrupt somebody, as in the case of Boromir, or Isildur much earlier. But because of his ability to see events elsewhere with the Palantir, I wonder whether Denethor was able to feel the corrupting pull and power of the Ring. Some of his statements in the chapter The Pyre of Denethor are very similar to those made by Boromir just before he tried to seize the Ring from Frodo. But the key is still the Palantir, which allowed Denethor to be corrupted and finally driven mad by the Ring from a long distance away. The loss of the Ring as it went into Mordor with Frodo may have been the final blow here, more than anything particular that happened with his sons.
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`These are indeed strange days,' he muttered. `Dreams and legends spring to life out of the grass.' |
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