Dwarves still in the Ered Mithrin?

[goldfinger]

I have found two things that are rather interesting about the Ered Mithrin. In Appendix A I found that in the chapter about Durin's folk, it states that Most, not all of Durin's folk left the Ered Mithrin. And I also found that in the Hobbit Thorin sent messengers to the Ered Luin "the mountains in the North". So I'm lead to believe as a Dwarf scholar that their were still at least one or two small colonies of Dwarves living in the Ered Mithrin. So what do my fellow scholars think?

[Kuruharan]

You are correct sir.

There are a couple of references to their continued presence in the Grey Mts. Unfortunately, I don't remember them at the moment...

I'll have to check later.

[Meneltarmacil]

Well, I'm no expert, but in TH, Thorin was at the Lonely Mountain when he was speaking, and the only nearby mountains to the north were the Ered Mithrin, so he was probably referring to them.

However, Gandalf had cautioned the group to avoid the Ered Mithrin earlier on, as they were full of Orcs.

The only conclusion I can draw would be that Dwarves did inhabit certain areas of the Ered Mithrin, but not in particularly significant numbers as to retake the entire mountain range from Orcs. The ones living there most likely had very efficient defenses.

With that said, the only other areas inhabited by large numbers Dwarves at that point were the Iron Hills (which had been mentioned separately by Thorin, if I remember correctly), and the Ered Luin (too far away, and definitely not to the north).

[Thinlómien]

If the dwarves still dwelt in Ered Mithrin, were they still living in their ancient cities, or had those been long abandoned? Just if they lived, why are they in no ME third/fourth age map?

[Kuruharan]

were they still living in their ancient cities

I'd assume so. The populations in them were probably very small. Emptiness would probably be the most noticeable trait of these places.

Just if they lived, why are they in no ME third/fourth age map?

Probably because the maps tend to focus only on the places Our Heroes travel.

[goldfinger]

Actually I think they may have tried to live secretly in lesser mines and mansions at the southern feet of the mountains away from the dragons who inhabited the Withered Heath, probably some of the mountains in the Northern fork, and I would assume some of the halls and mansions of the dwarves, because the dwarves were forced from their cities by the dragons. And their's also the goblins who invaded the mountains later on. They probably lived in the Western parts and possibly the central, and some may have been ruled by dragons for all we know.
Anyway, I think they lived rather secretly because if the dragons and goblins got wind of them they would have been all over the dwarves like flies on a animal carcass. Although the danger changed after the Battle of Five Armies, because over 3/4 of the Goblin warriors of the North were killed in the battle and there was peace for many years.

I do believe personally though that during the Fourth Age the dwarves drove away the dragons, and destroyed the goblins and took back their ancient homes in the Ered Mithrin. Because you see the mountains, I would think, still would have been rich with whatever was mined there back in the beginning when the dwarves first came there.

[Kuruharan]

Actually I think they may have tried to live secretly in lesser mines and mansions at the southern feet of the mountains away from the dragons who inhabited the Withered Heath

-and-

I think they lived rather secretly because if the dragons and goblins got wind of them they would have been all over the dwarves like flies on a animal carcass.

I can't say that I disagree with you, but since Thorin sent messages to them they must have been able to field forces of some military significance. Of course, Thorin might have been grasping at straws.

I think there might be some indication given about where Dwarves in the Grey Mountains may have lived. The Dwarves of the Iron Hills are the closest to the Lonely Mountain, which may rule out the possibility that significant numbers of dwarves lived in the southeastern spur of the Grey Mountains. It might be more likely that the Dwarves would live nearer the source of the Great River to be in the area where Men might still live so they could trade. Of course, that would get them close to the orc center of Gundabad, but this might make some sort of sense because the orc center of Gundabad was formerly a dwarf center of Gundabad until around TA 1300-1409 (to the best of my guesstimation).

[Ghazi]

Originally Posted by Kuruharan

I...the orc center of Gundabad was formerly a dwarf center of Gundabad until around TA 1300-1409 (to the best of my guesstimation).

I recall reading somewhere that Mt. Gundabad was the location where Durin awoke but I've never read that it was the location of a dwarf city. Where is that information located? My understanding was that once Durin awoke he migrated down to the future location of Khazad-dum. Given the approximate date above, did the Witch King's forces drive the dwarves from their Gundabad location?

[Mänwe]

“Also I would beg of you, if any of you are still young and strong of wing, that you would send messengers to our kin in the mountains of the North, both west from here and east, and tell them of our plight.” - (The Hobbit, Chapter 15, The Gathering of the Clouds.)

You are indeed most correct sir, the above quote, the one in which you refer too is indeed adequate evidence to suggest that there were Dwarves inhabiting other areas of Middle Earth.

In order to clear up my own ignorance on the subject and to perhaps help us all on where the dwarves resided, and I hope has included some of those references Kuruharan has in mind, I have scouted the appendices of the Lord of the Rings, and constructed a timeline, referring to the books where I can to provide accurate evidence and quotes.

After the awakening of the Fathers it is universally known that Durin settled in what was later to be known as Moria. Here we know the Dwarves gained great strength and wealth, however as was the Ring of power influence of those that wore it, meant that they were greedy for more wealth;

“…they delved too greedily and too deep, and disturbed that from which they fled, Durin's Bane.” – (Lord of the Rings, Chapter 4, Journey in the Dark)

Thus it was that Moria ceased to be a place habituated by the dwarves.

“1981 Third Age, Dwarves flee from Moria.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

No doubt also catalysed by the renewal of ork attacks on their settlements.

“1300 Third Age Evil things begin to multiply again. Orcs increase in the Misty Mountains and attack the Dwarves.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

However until now we know little of where else they resided, it is however clear from further quotes that obviously this was not the only great stronghold of the Dwarven people. For those that fled the Balrog, successfully travelled north.

“But Thorin I his son removed and went into the far North to the Grey Mountains, where most of Durin's folk were now gathering; for those mountains were rich and little explored.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

“2210 Third Age Thorin I leaves Erebor, and goes north to the Grey Mountains, where most of the remnants of Durin's Folk are now gathering.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

Thus it is clear the Grey Mountains as goldfinger has pointed out were also a strong gathering of Dwarves.However the one disadvantage of a move there, a rather significant factor, was the presence of the drakes (one can only imagine how the estate agents wrangled that one!). Their presence obviously was not well hid, for the drakes began the plundering of their lands.

“But there were dragons in the wastes beyond; and after many years they became strong again and multiplied, and they made war on the Dwarves, and plundered their works. At last Dáin I, together with Frór his second son, was slain at the door of his hall by a great cold-drake.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

“2570 Third Age, About this time Dragons reappear in the far North and begin to afflict the Dwarves.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

“2589 Third Age, Dáin I slain by a Dragon.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

This is a reason I think that explains Meneltarmacil’s point that Dwarven numbers here were dramatically reduced, and though some Dwarves may have remained undiscovered I am sure most fled. Also a point that was raised that stood out for me was Kuruharan's point about Gundabad being a Dwarven hold post Goblin occupation. And Ghazi's thoughts about Durin awakening there. I could not find anything to support so, would you be able to elaborate?

“Not long after most of Durin's Folk abandoned the Grey Mountains. Grór, Dáin's son, went away with many followers to the Iron Hills; but Thrór, Dáin's heir, with Borin his father's brother and the remainder of the people returned to Erebor. To the Great Hall of Thráin, Thrór brought back the Arkenstone, and he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

“2590 Third Age, Thrór returns to Erebor. Grór his brother goes to the Iron Hills.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)


It is at this time, that the main Dwarven stronghold has switched from Moria to Erebor helped, by the fleeing Dwarves from the Grey and Misty Mountains swelling their numbers. However do no loose sight of the fact that there are still remnant residing in the Misty Mountains, and the Grey Mountains.

It is the events following that show the greatest convergence of the Dwarven population which is illustrated as being very dispersed, for as we know, the burgeoning wealth of Erebor attracted the mightiest of Fire-drakes, Smaug to Erebor where he drove the inhabitants away.

“2770 Third Age, Smaug the Dragon descends on Erebor. Dale destroyed. Thrór escapes with Thráin II and Thorin II.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

Dwarves fled hither and thither, following either of the three most “regal” dwarves. Thus again the main Dwarven stronghold shifts from Erebor to the Iron Hills.

“From the sack and the burning many of Thrór's kin escaped; and last of all from the halls by a secret door came Thrór himself and his son Thráin II. They went away south with their family into long and homeless wandering. With them went also a small company of their kinsmen and faithful followers.” - (Appendix A, Durin’s Folk.)

The note includes a short passage, from which I have selected the most appropriate information for my point,

“It was afterwards learned that more of the Folk under the Mountain had escaped than was at first hoped; but most of these went to the Iron Hills.” - (Note, Appendix A, Durin’s Folk.)

Most save the few fled to the Iron Hills, and so illustrating my point that the Iron Hills was now home to the greatest concentration of Dwarves.

It is some years later that Thrór returns to Moria and is slain by Azog.

“From Dunland, where he was then dwelling, he went north with Nár, and they crossed the Redhorn Pass and came down into Azanulbizar.” - (Note, Appendix A, Durin’s Folk.)

So they have dispersed as far south as Dunland, bear this in mind. We now have perhaps remnants of Dwarves in the Misty Mountains (those fled from Moria), whom fled to Erebor and the Grey Mountains, then being rooted from there, (perhaps leaving remnants behind), fleeing to the Iron Hills and Dunland.

Now the slaying of Thrór, and the tale being told by Nár to Thráin started the War between Orcs and Dwarves;

“2793 Third Age, The War of the Dwarves and Orcs begins” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

An interesting point is that they are referred to Orcs here, yet Azog is the father of Bolg who in the Hobbit is a Goblin, anyway that is a different point.

“Thráin at once sent messengers bearing the tale, north, east, and west; but it was three years before the Dwarves had mustered their strength.” - (Note, Appendix A, Durin’s Folk.)

The reference to difference points of Middle Earth, suggesting that our proposed musings over remnant colonies are true; West to the Misty Mountains, north to the Grey Mountains and East to the Iron Hills, and so I think emphasising my point that this was a great convergence of its people.

“When all was ready they assailed and sacked one by one all the strongholds of the Orcs that they could from Gundabad to the Gladden. Both sides were pitiless, and there was death and cruel deeds by dark and by light. But the Dwarves had the victory through their strength, and their matchless weapons, and the fire of their anger, as they hunted for Azog in every den under mountain.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

Now that is a significant stretch of land, I am sure you will appreciate this by referring to a map, a good few leagues indeed, now perhaps I am not too presumptuous in suggesting that not all the Dwarves carried on in a fury, but some remained in the captured strongholds. Thus the Dwarven populace is again being dispersed, albeit in familiar settings. And so we come to the climax of the war, the battle to retake Moria.

“2799 Third Age Battle of Nanduhirion before the East-gate of Moria. Dáin Ironfoot returns to the Iron Hills. Thráin II and his son Thorin wander westwards.” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

The quote refers now to the moving of the greatest concentration of Dwarves returning to the Iron Hills, thus the Iron Hills remain the “greatest” Dwarves stronghold. Yet;

“So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

And following them perhaps those surviving that came out of the west. We can date their settling there due to the presence of the following quote;

“2802 Third Age They settle in the South of Ered Luin beyond the Shire” - (Appendix B, The Tale of Years.)

They could not reside within Moria, for many of the Dwarves that took part in the battle it was not their “home”, the war was to avenge the death of one of its fathers not solely to retake Moria, with the added fact of the rather dangerous Balrog still squatting there!

We then have the death of Thráin, and the subsequent quest for Erebor led by Thorin and the eventual ‘Battle of Five Armies’.

After which;

“There now Dain son of Nain took up his abode, and he became King under the Mountain, and in time many other dwarves gathered to his throne in the ancient halls.” - (The Hobbit, Chapter 18, The Return Journey.)

Perhaps now, Erebor became the greatest Dwarven stronghold again, however it was probably closely followed by the Iron Hills. Therefore middle Third Age, 2941, we find that Dwarves now reside primarily here and in the Iron Hills.

Perhaps I might mention Balin’s quest to Moria, however the inhabitation is not successful as we all know. The only other reference I found concerning a move of Dwarves was after the War of the Ring.

“After the fall of Sauron, Gimli brought south a part of the Dwarf-folk of Erebor, and he became Lord of the Glittering Caves.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

Now as conclusion, the pesky Dwarves seem to settle, obviously helped by the peace, into three locations, the Glittering Caves, Iron Hills, and Erebor.

[goldfinger]

Hear is my reply:

1. The Northern and Southern Ered Luin. according to Appendix A in the paragraph Eriador, Arnor, and the heirs of Isildur, the main consentration of Dwarves during the kingdom of Arnor was in the Southern range that had mines still working, and the remnants of the city of the Broadbeams, Belegost, which was also located there. Throughout the history of Middle Earth the Ered Luin was mainly the home of Broadbeams and and Firebeards. I believe that after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, Thrain and Thorin moved to the Northern chain as it says in appendix A (despite the note in the tale of years) and also because the Southern Dwarves had their own kings, for they were not of Durin's folk. Although after the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age many moved to Khazad-dum, but many probably moved back after the Balrog awoke in Khazad-dum.
Anyway, the Northern range may have have been home to some Firebeards, but it probably had more miners than anything else. And as I said before Thrain probably settled in the North after the war, instead of the South, where other kings of Dwarves lived.
As population goes, the Ered Luin was just as big as Erebor or the Iron Hills.

2. The Iron Hills. The Iron Hills was through the mid-late Third Age and Fourth Age, one of the most important of all Dwarf-realms, considering that much of Durin's folk lived there, and some best iron came from there, and some of the best Dwarf-warriors were from the Iron hills.

3. Erebor. Erebor is probably the second most improtant of all Dwarf-realms, and was after the slaying of Smaug probably the main realm of Durin's folk.

4. The Grey mountains. I think you all are a little confused with what I said in the beginning, so i'm going to kind of do a quick synopsis of it's history with Dwarves. The when the Dwarves first started to come there they were fleeing Khazad-dum. After Thrain I had died and his son Thorin I, went there. The Dragons started assailing them and after a the slaying of Dain I, most left. Now I think that during this time the ones that stayed behind tried to remain as secretive about their location as possible so Orc and Dragon wouldn't be swarming them. Now I believe after the Battle of Five Armies that things got much better for them. They probably had a swell in numbers with many of Durin's folk coming from the Ered Luin to Erebor and the Iron Hills, and they probably traded with Erebor and the Iron Hills now that the Goblins had suffered a huge loss in population. I also believe that they may have also, after a time, may have taken the larger cities. Though they may not have had a large population it was probably significantly more than before the Battle of Five Armies.
Manwe, I think you missunderstood what I said about the Ered Mithrin Dwarves. I wasn't talking about the time in which Durin's folk were living there in huge numbers and being attacked by Dragons, my thread is about when Thorin and company came to the Erebor and when he asked Roac to send word to his kin in the North (the remnants of Dwarves that lived in the Grey Mountains) west (probably some secure Dwarf colony of the Northern Misty Mountains) and East (The Iron Hills). My point of bringing it up was that there are two pieces of factual evidence that Dwarves know matter how many there were, still lived in the Ered Mithrin.

Very interesting point about the Misty. I believe that there may have been some colony of Dwarves living in a more secure area of the Misty. But there were probably more during the early days of Khazad-dum when they ruled much of the of the mountains and had no Orc to worry about.

Oh and Manwe, Durin awoke in Gundabad. It's noted in The Peoples of Middle Earth.

The appendices are not the end all be all of facts. There is the unfinished tales which has some stuff about the Dwarves and the People of Middle Earth which tells a lot of interesting things about them as well.

In the War of the Dwarves and Orcs it says that they sacked all the Orc holds they could find from gundabad to the Gladden river. When you sack a city or any place, you conquer it, then you take all the booty you can and leave, not stay.

There is more on my part to say but I hope some other Dwarf scholars like myself will help me out here.

[Kuruharan]

The reference in question is...

In the Dwarvish traditions of the Third Age the names of the places where each of the Seven Ancestors had "awakened" were remembered; but only two of them were known to Elves and Men of the West: the most westerly, the awakening place of the ancestors of the Firebeards and the Broadbeams; and that of the ancestor of the Longbeards, the eldest in making and awakening/ The first had been in the north of the Ered Lindon, the great eastern wall of Beleriand, of which the Blue Mountains of the Second and later ages were the remnant; the second had been Mount Gundabad (in origin a Khuzdul name), which was therefore revered by the Dwarves, and its occupation in the Third Age by the Orks of Sauron was one of the chief reasons for their great hatred of the Orks.
-"Of Men and Dwarves" The Peoples of Middle-earth

[Mänwe]

goldfinger my reply to yours.

1. The Northern and Southern Ered Luin.

“…but Dwarves dwelt, and still dwell, in the east side of the Blue Mountains, especially in those parts south of the Gulf of Lune, where they have mines that are still in use.” - (Appendix A, Eriador, Arnor, and the Heirs of Isuldur)

I am in complete agreement with you; the Blue Mountains were home to a number of dwarves, no doubt remnants of those who formerly dwelt in Belegost and Nogrod. Dealing with your reply in chronological order leads me onto your point;

Originally posted by goldfinger

“Although after the War of Wrath at the end of the First Age many moved to Khazad-dûm,…”

This too is evident from the following text,

“After the end of the First Age the power and wealth of Khazad-dûm was much increased; for it was enriched by many people and much lore and craft when the ancient cities of Nogrod and Belegost in the Blue Mountains were ruined at the breaking of Thangorodrim.” – (Appendix A, III Durin’s Folk)

We know that the breaking of Thangorodrim being the destruction of Angband in your said point, War of Wrath, after which we see the flooding of Beleriand and the consequent creation of the Gulf of Lhûn which separates the Ered Luin and consequently the destruction of Nogrod and Belegost.

In conclusion most transfer to Khazad-dûm, however some remain in the Blue Mountains, and south of the Lhûn.

Originally posted by goldfinger

“I believe that after the War of the Dwarves and Orcs, Thrain and Thorin moved to the Northern chain as it says in appendix A…”

That is exactly what I said, my reference to the Note has nothing to do with events after the war with the Orcs. It concerns the mustering of the Orcs pre-war time. By now there has been a general migration of Dwarves east, having fled from Nogrod, Belegost and Khazad-dûm when the Balrog awakes. They end up in the Misty Mountains.

“But Thorin I his son removed and went into the far North to the Grey Mountains, where most of Durin's folk were now gathering; for those mountains were rich and little explored.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

However we see that again most of the Dwarves that arrived in the Grey Mountains (Ered Mithrin) flee because of the drakes that resided there. Surprise, surprise, they move further East.

“Not long after most of Durin's Folk abandoned the Grey Mountains. Grór, Dáin's son, went away with many followers to the Iron Hills; but Thrór, Dáin's heir, with Borin his father's brother and the remainder of the people returned to Erebor. To the Great Hall of Thráin, Thrór brought back the Arkenstone, and he and his folk prospered and became rich, and they had the friendship of all Men that dwelt near.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

After the war with the Orcs I said they remove to the mountains of the Ered Luin.

“So Thráin and Thorin with what remained of their following (among whom were Balin and Glóin) returned to Dunland, and soon afterwards they removed and wandered in Eriador, until at last they made a home in exile in the east of the Ered Luin beyond the Lune.” - (Appendix A Durin’s Folk.)

I think we are in agreement.

2. Iron Hills.

Yes, I agree with you, the Iron Hills remains a steadfast stronghold through many years, and does become the greatest and most important stronghold for the dwarves in the Third Age, especially during the War of the Ring, blocking Sauron’s progress north.

3. Erebor.

“There now Dáin son of Náin took up his abode, and he became King under the Mountain, and in time many other dwarves gathered to his throne in the ancient halls.” - (The Hobbit, Chapter 18, The Return Journey.)

I was suggesting that perhaps after the Battle of the Five Armies, Erebor eclipsed even the Iron Hills; we know that Dáin Ironfoot ruled well and re-established trade routes with the men of Dale. Certainly it was far more important than the Iron Hills before Smaug entered too? We know of the wealth that was gathered for it spurns the entire story of ‘The Hobbit’.

4. Grey Mountains.

Originally posted by goldfinger

“And I also found that in the Hobbit Thorin sent messengers to the Ered Luin "the mountains in the North". So I'm lead to believe as a Dwarf scholar that their were still at least one or two small colonies of Dwarves living in the Ered Mithrin.”

It was you I thought was slightly confused, lol. I don’t think your sentence makes sense. The Ered Luin and the Ered Mithrin I am sure you know are two completely different Ranges. So when you say;

Originally posted by goldfinger

“Ered Luin "the mountains in the North".

You seem to associate the words in ( “ “ ) as the Ered Luin, then go onto say that you are lead to believe on light of you “quotation” there were colonies in the Ered Mithrin. However I spoke about Durin’s being there because I thought that it would help with an oversight of the many populations of the dwarves throughout Middle Earth, and was therefore actually supporting your idea that there indeed Dwarves there. Perhaps with hindsight I did not make that terribly clear.

~~~

I take it you are referring to the following quote when you say Durin awoke in Gundabad?

“…the second had been Mount Gundabad (in origin a Khuzdul name), which was there- fore revered by the Dwarves,””- (Relations of the Longbeard Dwarves and Men, Peoples of Middle Earth.)

A final point,

Originally quoted by goldfinger

“The appendices are not the end all be all of facts.”

Mhm, I would say they were, being a part of the trilogy themselves and thus ‘true’ beliefs of the Master. Though I know that his ideas of the history were forever changing, I would still say that whatever is written in the trilogy is the ‘truth’ above all the other books that was not solely done by him.

[goldfinger]

Whoops I made a typo with the Ered Luin thing forgive me I ment Ered Mithrin.

I believe once Erebor was refounded, and Dain came with his people and those of Durin's folk still in the Ered Luin and elsewhere came to back to Erebor it became the most important of realms to Durin's folk for one their king resided there, and their was still gold jewels and others stuff inside the mountain. Still you're right, the Iron Hills were still very important to Durin's folk too and they did have a lot of traffic between them and Erebor.

You said that the Iron Hills kept out the Easterlings during the War of the Ring. Even though I would agree with you that they helped, I think we can only speculate that they did considering that Appendix B says:

"At the same time as the great armies besieged Minas Tirith a host of the allies of Sauron that had long threatened the borders of King Brand crossed the river Carnen, and Brand was driven back to Erebor. There they had the aid of the Dwarves of Erebor; and there was a great battle at the mountain's feet"

In the next paragraph it says:

"And the besieged came forth and routed them, and the remnant fled into the East and troubled Dale no more"

So that's why I say we can only speculate.

When I said end all be all I meant the appendices aren't the only thing that tells us important stuff about the Dwarves.

I find it strange though that there is the contradiction about the place that Durin's folk migrated to. A says North and B says South.

I have another question. Did the Firebeards and Broadbeams go back to the Ered Luin after the awakening of the Balrog, or did they go with the Longbeards?
I would think after thousands of years of these three houses living together, they would become intermingled and would no longer be separated by houses but would be of mixed blood lines and be just Durin's folk (those ruled by the line of Durin).
I've contemplated this question many times and haven't really come to a conclusion yet, so maybe some can give a good theory.

[Legate of Amon Lanc]

Originally Posted by goldfinger

I would think after thousands of years of these three houses living together, they would become intermingled and would no longer be separated by houses but would be of mixed blood lines and be just Durin's folk (those ruled by the line of Durin).

Well, in my opinion, dwarves probably relied on the "family clan traditions" much, because Thorin mentions himself as being descendant of the Longbeards and he (of course) feels very important. And I think there still might be some of the other clans who would have been heirs to the first Firebeard or Broadbeam who considered themselves "important" as much as Thorin did. But we can only speculate if they took the Durin's heir as their ruler, or if they were "autonomous".