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12-26-2006, 05:53 PM | #1 | |
Guard of the Citadel
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Mouth of Sauron at Erebor ?
As I was reading through another thread, I suddently came across this quote:
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12-26-2006, 06:36 PM | #2 |
Regal Dwarven Shade
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I think it was more likely a Nazgul from Dul Guldur. It was a long way for the Mouth to travel three times, Dul Guldur was closer. The reaction of the Dwarves was also rather profound for an ordinary Man (because that is essentially what the Mouth was).
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12-26-2006, 06:56 PM | #3 | ||||
Laconic Loreman
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I always thought it was a Nazgul too (although it can't be for certain). I'll get to that more in a bit. Aye, but first:
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The wraiths relied heavily upon fear: Quote:
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Also, the messenger was out for information. It wanted to find out about 'the thief' (Bilbo) and where he was with this ring he had 'stolen.' At this time it were the Ringwraiths who were going around trying to gather information about 'Baggins' and 'Shire.' So, I definitely agree with Kuru that it was a Ringwraith who was the secret messenger.
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12-27-2006, 02:24 AM | #4 | ||
A Voice That Gainsayeth
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A Horseman in the Night
I'd agree with Kuruharan&Boro on that this "horseman in the night" might be a Ringwraith. Boro's "hissing" points are quite good, and also Kuru's thoughts of Dol Guldur being much closer to Erebor than Mordor.
I went a little bit further and done a little exegesis to support this theory. As we know, Gloins speaks of this messenger to Dain at the Elrond's Council; Gloin says that the messenger will come Quote:
In Unfinished Tales, there is written, that Quote:
If someone needed to verify if the Ringwraith were able to be at Erebor, there are the datums. Remember that it was almost at the start of their quest for the Ring-bearer, so were they "on-line" at the time the messenger came to Erebor? Gloin says that first time the messenger came "a year before" the Council, as he puts it, so let's say september to november 3017. This would imply that immediately after receiving the information from Gollum, Sauron sent this messenger to the "scene of murder", Erebor (of course he did, being it such a grave matter as the One Ring). At this time, the Nazgul were certainly "free of duties" to do this. The second coming, however, is quite obscure. Gloin says just that he returned without answer, but does not say when. If our "horseman in the night" indeed was a Ringwraith, it would have to happen before June 3018, when the Witch-King and the other Ringwraith set out from Mordor to meet with Khamul and his messenger (according to UT). This happened after Sauron received the message of Gollum being captured by Aragorn, which, according to UT, was some time around April 3018. According to Gloin, the messenger said that he'd come before the end of the year. Sauron's choice of sending the Nazgul out was improvised and quick in response to the events at that time, thus, when the messenger came, he still counted on that the third time (as he said, before the end of 3018), he will return and ask about the whereabouts of the Ring and it's bearer. He did not know that at the moment, the whereabouts of the Ring would be already known because of speeding up the events with Sauron's response to the capture of Gollum by Aragorn. So it is indeed possible that this messenger was a Ringwraith, and we also came up to the dates of the messenger's coming So, to be precise, the only thing which might stand against the theory of the messenger being a Ringwraith would be that the Ringwraith were something like a "last resort" for Sauron, and he didn't want to use them because the fear they produced was too great. However, this fear was just the thing Sauron used (um, as always). Also, it was problem for the Ringwraith to cross water, however, this would be possible on oars or whatever in the Wilderness. They had also problem with orientation in daylight - but this would speak FOR the Ringwraith theory, since the messenger could have traveled at night - and, Gloin says, that he came in the night - and what man would not camp outside Erebor and wait for the dawn until negotiating! Also, in the night, his identity could not have been revealed - so that no one would know he was a Ringwraith!
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12-27-2006, 05:57 AM | #5 |
Odinic Wanderer
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I cannot remember what I initially thought this messenger was, probably a wring wraith, but I must say that I see no evidence for it.
Fell voice: I am fairly sure that the Mouth of Sauron was not very lovely to listen to, any human can have a fell voice Hiss of Snakes: Now this is something that I assoisiate with the Nazgul, but I sertainly do not see it as proof! and it did only make people shutter, the Nazgul is known to have a more severe effect on their soroundings! And it was only those who heard him that was affected, not the people of Erebor in genneral. Like one can be moved by the words of another man, so can the appearance and sound of him make you shutter. Heavy have the hearts: Yes of course! They stand between to opptions 1. the eternal wrath of mordor, or 2. betraying a friend. Who would not have heavy harts? It could very well have been a Nazgul, but it might as well have been some sort of living messenger. Yes these things could indicate that it was a Nazgul, but for some reason I doubt that Tolkien would descripe a living messenger from Mordor as a real cheerful and lovely chap' ! |
12-27-2006, 06:53 AM | #6 | |||
Guard of the Citadel
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well, I hate answering my own question, but I remembered I overlooked one also important aspect of the story when asking.
as Lieutenant of Barad-dur, Mouth of Sauron clearly was charged with dealing with internal business, and taking care of the matters in the Dark Tower. However, I have just found some quotes that make me believe it was just an ordinary emissary, and not a Ringwraith: Quote:
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And I have another reason that makes me think that the Nazgul never went to Erebor. Considering the story in the UT we can see what effect the presence of a Nazgul has, effects much more devastating then the words of the messenger at Erebor. People fled from their homes in Rohan when they went to Isengard, fear went before them and lingered behind them. These are clearly not the effects the messenger has. The hearts of the Dwarf chieftains are heavy, but not because of the messenger himself, but because of the message. They knew all what the messenger was talking about, and they all knew the might of Sauron - that is in my opinion reason enough to have a heavy heart. This quote is in my opinion very useful: Quote:
As Rune very well points out, the fact he had a "fell voice" or "hiss of snakes" do not mean he was necessarily a Nazgul. So my conclusion: this was just an "ordinary" emissary, that "[size=-1]could bring him no tidings."[/size]
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12-27-2006, 10:42 AM | #7 | ||||||||||
Laconic Loreman
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It's also not simply the hissing voice. The nazgul as a messenger isn't a problem as Legate describes. The Nazgul were used as messengers and called such: Quote:
Good post Legate! One thing: Quote:
-It was there job in FOTR to hunt down Baggins and find the Ring -He puts Nazgul in Dol Guldur to control things over there -He uses the Nazgul to start his attacks on Gondor (as Boromir notes in The Council of Elrond...it wasn't by numbers they were defeated, it was because of the 'Black Captain' as he called him). -He puts the Witch-King in charge of his army. -He used the Nazgul to check up on Saruman and see what he was up to as is noted in the chapter of The Palantir Sauron shows no shyness in using the Nazgul when it comes to accomplishing important tasks. Especially one that concerns his One Ring. The only people Sauron could conceivably trust (since they were enthralled to his service) when it came to the One Ring, and bringing it back to him were the Nazgul. We see the Messenger in Dale was there to get information about Baggins and the Ring, which we know during this time period that's what the Nazgul were doing as you eloquently explained in your post above. TM: Quote:
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The messenger was out to strike a bargain with the dwarves, but what was the exchange...The messenger clearly wanted information about Bilbo and the Ring. Which we know for certain the Nazgul were going around trying to do. Sauron was very protective over his ring and information about it; he does not seem to trust anyone with matters concerning the Ring except himself and his Nazgul. In UT Hunt for the Ring, Sauron is filled with fear when he finds out his enemies have captured Gollum. Sauron wants as much information about the Ring as possible, and as we see he hates it when other people have access to knowledge about the Ring. I doubt Sauron would send an ordinary emissary to go out and get information on the whereabouts of the Ring and this 'Baggins.' Sauron had some serious trust issues when it came to matters about the Ring (which could be reasonably explained)...the one's he trusted with the Ring were the Nazgul because he had them enthralled into a slavedom and controlled them. Therefor they seem to be the most likely candidates for the one's to be sent out and find the whereabouts of the Ring...which we all know full well that was the Nazgul's major task in The Fellowship of the Ring...and we know was the purpose of the Messenger sent to Erebor.
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Last edited by Boromir88; 12-27-2006 at 10:47 AM. |
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12-27-2006, 11:41 AM | #8 |
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I agree with the point you made on different people acting differently when in the presence of the Nazgul, I admit I was wrong here.
Still, I doubt he would have already sent the Nazgul as messengers, considering that he wished for secrecy. At the time, as we are told in the UT, Khamul was in charge of finding out information about the whereabouts of Gollum. Important here is that he did not go himself, but he sent his own spies to find out more. Once he learned that he was in the hands of the Wise, he sent a message back to Sauron. For Sauron it clearly was very important that he captured Gollum before his enemy, still he did not yet send the Nazgul to do it. If he didn't send them do this, I doubt he would have sent them to deal with the Dwarves. Only in late June he decided that they must go forth and find the Ring, so he eventually sent the seven Nazgul from Minas Morgul which met the other 2 on the Field of Celebrant. If Sauron took the decision to send forth the Nazgul in late June, how could it be possible that one of them had visited the Dwarves in Erebor some months before?
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12-28-2006, 10:03 AM | #9 | ||
Laconic Loreman
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I think since we aren't told exactly who the messenger is, of course nobody here can say definitively. I was told a while ago that: 'If it look like a Nazgul, sounds like a Nazgul, acts like a Nazgul, chances are it's a Nazgul' So, that's kind of been my thinking. However, I admit it's kind of like the race of Gothmog...we aren't told for sure, so we don't know. We can make some educated answers, but can never really be certain. Don't you just love how it's like that; there will never be a time when we can find 'all the answers.'
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12-28-2006, 12:58 PM | #10 |
Wight
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I wasn't there .
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12-28-2006, 02:35 PM | #11 | ||||
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you are indeed right there: Sauron let Gollum go hoping that he will be able to follow him and found out where this "Shire" was...but Gollum fooled him
and here follow a few quotes all from the UT to clear up the situation: Quote:
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In conclusion, I agree, we can only make attempts to find the right answer.
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“The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike.”
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12-28-2006, 05:50 PM | #12 | |
Odinic Wanderer
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It is very basic. . . women have ears, Aragorn have ears. . .Aragorn is a woman? I know this is an extreme example, but basicaly it is the same. You cannot tell if it is an Nazgul unless hissing like a snake is a thing only a Nazgul can do. I know you know this, but you asked and so I have to answer. |
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12-28-2006, 06:19 PM | #13 | |
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I have not addressed this matter in my previous post, I got caught up with the UT quotes so I will do it now.
I agree with your: Quote:
However, as you already said, just like the race of Gothmog, there is no way to clearly tell. As Legate showed, if Sauron wished to send one of the Nazgul as a messenger to Dol Guldur he could have. But he didn't. Not at that time. He sent messengers, emissaries and spies, that weren't able to bring him any tidings. So only in late June 3018 did he eventually decide to use his best servants - the Ringwraiths which had until that point remained hidden. The WK attacked Osgiliath, Khamul started to look for Gollum, and the story is well known from this point.
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12-29-2006, 07:24 AM | #14 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
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I do not believe that it was the Mouth, although there is evidence to support his being there. I think that his place was in Mordor. He was the lieutenent of Barad Dur, and an ambassador. I dont think he was exactly a messenger.
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