Haldir - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

elle · 07-14-2003, 07:21 PM

I have been wondering this for along time, so I decided to ask the "experts".

Is Haldir, son of Halmir of Brethil, from the Silmarillion the same Haldir of Lothlorien, from the Lord of the Rings?

Don't get me wrong, I know Haldir from the Silmarillion was slain in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, but could it possibly be that the same happened to Haldir as to Glorfindel?

~* Work that Magic! *~

Legolas · 07-14-2003, 07:31 PM

No. The 'Haldir' in The Silmarillion is a man, not an elf.

Moving to Novices and Newcomers.

Meela · 07-15-2003, 12:54 PM

It is easy to confuse a lot of characters who share a name, but they are different.

What happened to Glorfindel?

And does anyone know if anything actually happened to our Haldir? Did he fight/die in the three assaults on Lorien, or join Celeborn in East Lorien when it was set up after the former Lorien's demise?

Finwe · 07-15-2003, 02:15 PM

The most common Glorfindel theory out there says that after staying in the Halls of Waiting for a while, he was re-embodied by the Valar and sent back for reasons unknown. He probably came back in the mid-Second Age or during the early Third Age with the Istari. He took up residence in Imladris with Elrond.

In the Third Age, he helped conquer the Witch-King of Angmar by leading a force from Imladris and pinning the Witch-King between him and Earnur of Gondor. He was the one who delivered that famous prophecy about the Witch-king (that he won't be killed by any man). After that, the next time we hear of him is at Imladris, during the Council at Imladris where he said that it was folly to throw away the Ring or something along those lines.

As for Haldir, we don't know what happened to him after the Fellowship met him in Lothlorien. It is quite possible that he was with Celeborn in East Lorien after the War of the Ring. He's another one of those mysteries.

elle · 07-15-2003, 08:43 PM

Haldir in the Silmarillion was a man? I missed that, where does it say? Anyways I guess whatever happened the Haldir the "elf" is a mystery, like said before. It sometimes would be handy if Tolkien wrote more about some characters like Legolas' appearance, and Haldir's doings, and other things we just don't know. Well I am getting off topic now. Haldir was a cool character, althought he was not there much in the books. In the movies it sucked when PJ made him die! It was sad [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] . Oh and Finwe, very well said above about Glorfindel [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] .

[ July 15, 2003: Message edited by: elle ]

Finwe · 07-17-2003, 10:07 AM

Yup, Haldir was a Man in the Silmarillion, a Man from Brethil.

BTW, Glorfindel was the exception, not the rule for Elves. After staying in Mandos for a while, Elves can be "reincarnated" in bodies identical to their previous one. But Men can't do that, or so we think, because Tolkien didn't tell us if they could. Glorfindel came back (the only Elf who did) either in the middle of the Second Age or with the Istari in the early Third Age. Since Haldir of Brethil was a Man, there was no possible way that he could have been "reincarnated" as Haldir of Lothlorien. It was just that they had the same name.

[ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ]

Lord of Angmar · 07-17-2003, 11:30 AM

It was written somewhere that Glorfindel was reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth by the Valar to aid in the wars against Sauron, having much experience in the fight against Morgoth and being a wise and powerful Elf-lord. I don't know if this theory can be supported by Tolkien's main works (why not send back Fingolfin, or Gil-galad, or someone with even more power), but nonetheless this is how Tolkien justified his return. I shall search for the body of work in which this was written and try to provide the exact text.

Silmiel of Imladris · 07-17-2003, 11:52 AM

How did Glorfindel die in the first place?

So the first Haldir was a man. He must be in close kinship with the Elves because he is on some of their family trees.

I think we all would like to know more about Legolas's appearence but even more so about his family. There is Oropher his grandfather, Thranduil his father, but who in Middle-Earth was his mother? *Sigh* [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] We may never know.

Lord of Angmar · 07-17-2003, 11:59 AM

Glorfindel died battling a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin in the First Age. He was an elven lord under Turgon.

elle · 07-17-2003, 10:44 PM

Because Haldir from the Silmarillion has elves on his family tree I thought he was an elf. Oopsies, that was my bad. But not I know more, thanx fellow BarrowDowners! I knew I should of asked you experts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

StarJewel · 07-18-2003, 12:17 AM

Kind of off topic, but was Haldir even mentioned in TTT? I would have liked to know what really happened to him, cuz him getting killed in the movie really was depressing!

Legolas · 07-18-2003, 12:27 AM

Glorfindel's reincarnation is not a "theory" - it's fact. Tolkien even wondered himself if Glorfindel was considered one of the Istari, but decided he wasn't. However, he did return to Middle-earth as stated - one writing has him arriving with Gandalf; in another has him arriving late in the Second Age.

Check out this site's Middle-earth FAQ. Sharku has written an entry about this.

Daisy Brambleburr · 07-21-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Haldir in the Silmarillion was a man? I missed that, where does it say?

I thought that you thought that he was a woman. Oh what an idiot I am...

07-14-2003, 07:21 PM	#1
elle Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 40	Haldir I have been wondering this for along time, so I decided to ask the "experts". Is Haldir, son of Halmir of Brethil, from the Silmarillion the same Haldir of Lothlorien, from the Lord of the Rings? Don't get me wrong, I know Haldir from the Silmarillion was slain in the Nirnaeth Arnoediad, but could it possibly be that the same happened to Haldir as to Glorfindel? ~* Work that Magic! ~ __________________ " Do you think you killed him with that apple, Sam?" - Pippin ~Stop Deforestation, Start Reforestation~ ~Save our Future, Save a Tree*~

07-14-2003, 07:31 PM	#2
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	No. The 'Haldir' in The Silmarillion is a man, not an elf. Moving to Novices and Newcomers. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

07-15-2003, 12:54 PM	#3
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	It is easy to confuse a lot of characters who share a name, but they are different. What happened to Glorfindel? And does anyone know if anything actually happened to our Haldir? Did he fight/die in the three assaults on Lorien, or join Celeborn in East Lorien when it was set up after the former Lorien's demise? __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-15-2003, 02:15 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	The most common Glorfindel theory out there says that after staying in the Halls of Waiting for a while, he was re-embodied by the Valar and sent back for reasons unknown. He probably came back in the mid-Second Age or during the early Third Age with the Istari. He took up residence in Imladris with Elrond. In the Third Age, he helped conquer the Witch-King of Angmar by leading a force from Imladris and pinning the Witch-King between him and Earnur of Gondor. He was the one who delivered that famous prophecy about the Witch-king (that he won't be killed by any man). After that, the next time we hear of him is at Imladris, during the Council at Imladris where he said that it was folly to throw away the Ring or something along those lines. As for Haldir, we don't know what happened to him after the Fellowship met him in Lothlorien. It is quite possible that he was with Celeborn in East Lorien after the War of the Ring. He's another one of those mysteries. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-15-2003, 08:43 PM	#5
elle Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 40	Haldir in the Silmarillion was a man? I missed that, where does it say? Anyways I guess whatever happened the Haldir the "elf" is a mystery, like said before. It sometimes would be handy if Tolkien wrote more about some characters like Legolas' appearance, and Haldir's doings, and other things we just don't know. Well I am getting off topic now. Haldir was a cool character, althought he was not there much in the books. In the movies it sucked when PJ made him die! It was sad [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] . Oh and Finwe, very well said above about Glorfindel [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] . [ July 15, 2003: Message edited by: elle ] __________________ " Do you think you killed him with that apple, Sam?" - Pippin ~Stop Deforestation, Start Reforestation~ ~Save our Future, Save a Tree~

07-17-2003, 10:07 AM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	Yup, Haldir was a Man in the Silmarillion, a Man from Brethil. BTW, Glorfindel was the exception, not the rule for Elves. After staying in Mandos for a while, Elves can be "reincarnated" in bodies identical to their previous one. But Men can't do that, or so we think, because Tolkien didn't tell us if they could. Glorfindel came back (the only Elf who did) either in the middle of the Second Age or with the Istari in the early Third Age. Since Haldir of Brethil was a Man, there was no possible way that he could have been "reincarnated" as Haldir of Lothlorien. It was just that they had the same name. [ July 17, 2003: Message edited by: Finwe ] __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

07-17-2003, 11:30 AM	#7
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	It was written somewhere that Glorfindel was reincarnated and sent back to Middle-earth by the Valar to aid in the wars against Sauron, having much experience in the fight against Morgoth and being a wise and powerful Elf-lord. I don't know if this theory can be supported by Tolkien's main works (why not send back Fingolfin, or Gil-galad, or someone with even more power), but nonetheless this is how Tolkien justified his return. I shall search for the body of work in which this was written and try to provide the exact text. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

07-17-2003, 11:52 AM	#8
Silmiel of Imladris Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Looking into a crystal ball- still see nothing Posts: 395	How did Glorfindel die in the first place? So the first Haldir was a man. He must be in close kinship with the Elves because he is on some of their family trees. I think we all would like to know more about Legolas's appearence but even more so about his family. There is Oropher his grandfather, Thranduil his father, but who in Middle-Earth was his mother? Sigh [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] We may never know. __________________ Legolas 20 ales later: I feel something, a slight tingling in my fingers. I think it's affecting me. Figwit on his name: Are you suggesting that I have the wit of a fig?

07-17-2003, 11:59 AM	#9
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Glorfindel died battling a Balrog during the Fall of Gondolin in the First Age. He was an elven lord under Turgon. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

07-17-2003, 10:44 PM	#10
elle Animated Skeleton Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Canada, eh? Posts: 40	Because Haldir from the Silmarillion has elves on his family tree I thought he was an elf. Oopsies, that was my bad. But not I know more, thanx fellow BarrowDowners! I knew I should of asked you experts. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ " Do you think you killed him with that apple, Sam?" - Pippin ~Stop Deforestation, Start Reforestation~ ~Save our Future, Save a Tree~

07-18-2003, 12:17 AM	#11
StarJewel Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: I'm in my dear Maedhros' arms, dreaming the day away. Oh, who am I kidding, Chicago is nothing like that! Posts: 116	Kind of off topic, but was Haldir even mentioned in TTT? I would have liked to know what really happened to him, cuz him getting killed in the movie really was depressing! __________________ Visit my writing site...if you dare http://www.fanfiction.net/~mirielamarian

07-18-2003, 12:27 AM	#12
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	Glorfindel's reincarnation is not a "theory" - it's fact. Tolkien even wondered himself if Glorfindel was considered one of the Istari, but decided he wasn't. However, he did return to Middle-earth as stated - one writing has him arriving with Gandalf; in another has him arriving late in the Second Age. Check out this site's Middle-earth FAQ. Sharku has written an entry about this. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.