LOTR in school - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Arwen Imladris · 10-04-2002, 02:36 PM

O.k., my mother is a teacher, and she likes LOTR (she is not a fanatic... yet [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] ) She is teaching this civics course and she was trying to think of a way to justify watching LOTR in this Civics class. If you could think of anyway that she could justify this, please post! You can also say how someone could justify it in other classes.

English/Drama: Write about the setting of LOTR.

BTW Civics is about politics and stuff.

Thanks!

Tigerlily Gamgee · 10-04-2002, 02:39 PM

It is easy to justify it for an English class, because any English class I ever took involved reading classics and discussing their themes, etc... and well, I consider LOTR to fall under this category (of course, I am referring to reading the book for class, not watching the movie...).

As for civics... well, I just don't see that working..

Brinniel · 10-04-2002, 02:42 PM

Hmmm. Maybe she could show a clip of the Council of Elrond or something. But otherwise, LOTR for civics class won't work.

Eldanuumea · 10-04-2002, 03:17 PM

Actually, I can see some application for a civics class, depending on the age and characteristics of your students. The issue of the ruling of Gondor would be an excellent discussion starter. What is the nature of a legitimate claim to a throne, or to governance? The students could run a debate or panel discussion on the topic of who should rule Gondor, Elessar or Faramir. Why is Elessar's claim more legitimate than the Steward's son's claim?
It's all about the vestiture of power. Who gives this authority to a ruler? I would think some teens would be able to enjoy intelligent discussion of such issues. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Elenna · 10-04-2002, 03:44 PM

What about exploring the dynamics of the Fellowship? Who assumed the leadership role, how Gimli and Legolas's conflict was resolved, that sort of thing?

Rose Cotton · 10-05-2002, 06:44 AM

There are alot of politics in Gondor. You just have to find it. And in Hobbiton.

Tarthang · 10-05-2002, 09:00 AM

From Merriam Webster (online courtesy of AOL). CIVICS: A social science dealing with the rights and duties of citizens.

I am assuming the class Arwen has mentioned is a high school (American) class. What I remember of taking this course in 12th grade, is primarily a study of the working and function of the American government. By definition, I can see no way in which showing FoTR is justifiable in a civics class.

Elda's suggestion of discussing the rights of who's claim is best to rule Gondor, sounds good, initially. ME as presented by Tolkien is predominantly a world governed by Feudal governments. Anyone here living in Feudal society? Didn't think so. Therefore this topic doesn't seem to apply in a civics course either.
It would work in a course designed for the study of Feudal governments. However there are several problems.
1. It is doubtful that a movie would provide enough detail, to warrant a meaningful class discussion.
A: The issue of who should rule Gondor is primarily an issue dealt with in RoTK, which isn't yet out as a movie.
B: The LoTR is not primarily a tale about the reclaiming of a throne. Which means any real details would have to come from students reading and studying LoTR in depth. Which is time consuming, and better suited at a collegiate level (remember I'm assuming this is for a high school class).
2. History already provides plenty of detailed cases for the study and discussion of Feudal governments.
A: Tolkien provided genealogical tables a-plenty for the ruling heads of Gondor. But it is debatable wether or not he provided enough detail on the workings of the Gondorian government, to justify a discussion about a fictional claim to kingship, in an educational setting.

Sorry Arwen, I don't see much hope for your mother justifying the showing of FoTR in class. Nor was I attempting to make any kind of personal attack on Elda, by ripping her suggestion to shreds.

Beren87 · 10-05-2002, 09:16 AM

Eldanuumea, you have a lot of faith in teens.

Neferchoirwen · 10-05-2002, 09:29 AM

Eldanuumea: Welcome to the Downs!

My sister had to watch the movie in class for a values class. I thought that the civics amd values were the same---my thoughts are randomly dyslexic today. Oh me!

Elda's suggestions are great, but the first thing that came into mind was the dynamics of the fellowship, which is a feeble attempt to conect the movie with civics.

The Council of Elrond is a great example of diplomatic relations and treaty formations (anyone with better terminology can correct me).

Hobbiton's politics are not very clear. They don't have a ruler to represent them, but it's a great culture to study and analyze.

Arwen Imladris · 10-05-2002, 10:54 AM

Thanks guys! It is a grade 10 Civics class, in Canada if you want to know. If you have anymore suggestions, Please post!

Birdland · 10-05-2002, 11:28 AM

Much as I love the book, I can't really see it being used in a Canadian Civics class. Can't see much connection between the parliamentary system and a hereditary monarchy ruled by fiat. Now an Ethics class might be a possiblity, but not a Civics class.

I could see it being taught in a English Lit class, or a Drama class, or maybe even a History class if you were doing comparisons.

I could even see it being used in a Math class. "If Frodo sets out from Hobbiton at a speed of 10 miles a day, and Gandalf sets out from Orthanc..." [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Donisile Of Mirkwood · 10-05-2002, 02:12 PM

Quote: I could see it being taught in a English Lit class, or a Drama class, or maybe even a History class if you were doing comparisons.

I could even see it being used in a Math class. "If Frodo sets out from Hobbiton at a speed of 10 miles a day, and Gandalf sets out from Orthanc..."

HAHA! That is the funniest thing i have heard in a long time,that has made a so far miserable day good !! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Eldanuumea · 10-05-2002, 09:47 PM

Tarthang, that's quite all right......I have been on forums long enough to have developed a much thicker skin than I started out with!!
I was stretching a good bit, trying to create a reasonable rationale.
I teach high school English, and will be teaching FOTR for the first time in November-December. Does anyone have any specific suggestions for conveying the magic of Middle Earth to underachieving, unmotivated learners? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Brinniel · 10-05-2002, 11:33 PM

After making your students read LOTR (which is pure torture for them, I know

), you could always have act out scenes from the book.

Or, better yet, you could teach your class in costume!

Ok, maybe that's getting a little carried away, but if it helps.......

Eldanuumea · 10-06-2002, 06:12 AM

Wish I knew where to get a Gandalf costume! That would be great fun!

DarkRose · 10-06-2002, 07:33 PM

About the Civics thing, I really can't see an adequate way to incorporate an LOTR lesson in a Civics class. =| Sorry, Arwen.

Now..

Quote:

Does anyone have any specific suggestions for conveying the magic of Middle Earth to underachieving, unmotivated learners?

This I have suggestions for. =) Being a young teen myself, I can sort of relate to the other members of my generation, so perhaps I can help..

Introduce LOTR as no other book you'll ever teach to them. In costume would be great [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img], as Brinniel said. Perhaps stroll into the class and say something like:

"Class, we are going to be reading and discussion a trilogy of books that you may or may not recognize the name of. They will be books like no other you've ever read, and if you read them with open minds, they just might change your lives before you realize the change is happening."

You know, something really dramatic and drastic, to introduce the outstanding, striking influence of the phenominal books right away. Something like:

"These will be books brimming with utter and complete evil, corruption, war, devotion, friendship, incredibly love, and deception. Nothing that R.L Stein could give you with Monster of Fear Street, eh?"

Read the books as a class if you can, but before doing so, maybe you could give a light introduction to Middle Earth?

I'm sure everything will go great! Just make sure not to make the trilogy sound awfully boring, for with teens, things like books will automatically seem dull. [Not for all teens, just a lot of us.] Good luck! =)

[ October 06, 2002: Message edited by: DarkRose ]

Tigerlily Gamgee · 10-16-2002, 04:28 PM

LOTR in school, you say???
If you don't believe that it could really happen check out this link!!!
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...222635762.html

10-04-2002, 02:36 PM	#1
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	LOTR in school O.k., my mother is a teacher, and she likes LOTR (she is not a fanatic... yet [img]smilies/evil.gif[/img] ) She is teaching this civics course and she was trying to think of a way to justify watching LOTR in this Civics class. If you could think of anyway that she could justify this, please post! You can also say how someone could justify it in other classes. English/Drama: Write about the setting of LOTR. BTW Civics is about politics and stuff. Thanks! __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

10-04-2002, 02:39 PM	#2
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	It is easy to justify it for an English class, because any English class I ever took involved reading classics and discussing their themes, etc... and well, I consider LOTR to fall under this category (of course, I am referring to reading the book for class, not watching the movie...). As for civics... well, I just don't see that working.. __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~

10-04-2002, 02:42 PM	#3
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,983	Hmmm. Maybe she could show a clip of the Council of Elrond or something. But otherwise, LOTR for civics class won't work. __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum

10-04-2002, 03:17 PM	#4
Eldanuumea Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 11	Actually, I can see some application for a civics class, depending on the age and characteristics of your students. The issue of the ruling of Gondor would be an excellent discussion starter. What is the nature of a legitimate claim to a throne, or to governance? The students could run a debate or panel discussion on the topic of who should rule Gondor, Elessar or Faramir. Why is Elessar's claim more legitimate than the Steward's son's claim? It's all about the vestiture of power. Who gives this authority to a ruler? I would think some teens would be able to enjoy intelligent discussion of such issues. [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img] __________________ "There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." - Gandalf the Grey

10-04-2002, 03:44 PM	#5
Elenna A Ghostly Light Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: My private bubble of innocence Posts: 563	What about exploring the dynamics of the Fellowship? Who assumed the leadership role, how Gimli and Legolas's conflict was resolved, that sort of thing? __________________ If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

10-05-2002, 06:44 AM	#6
Rose Cotton Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: A place worse then Mordor........School! Posts: 1,075	There are alot of politics in Gondor. You just have to find it. And in Hobbiton. __________________ "There's nothing you can do, Harry... nothing... he's gone."-Remus Lupin "The closer we are to danger, the further we are from harm."-Pippin (now how can you argue with that logic?)

10-05-2002, 09:00 AM	#7
Tarthang Wight Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Paths of the Dead Posts: 108	From Merriam Webster (online courtesy of AOL). CIVICS: A social science dealing with the rights and duties of citizens. I am assuming the class Arwen has mentioned is a high school (American) class. What I remember of taking this course in 12th grade, is primarily a study of the working and function of the American government. By definition, I can see no way in which showing FoTR is justifiable in a civics class. Elda's suggestion of discussing the rights of who's claim is best to rule Gondor, sounds good, initially. ME as presented by Tolkien is predominantly a world governed by Feudal governments. Anyone here living in Feudal society? Didn't think so. Therefore this topic doesn't seem to apply in a civics course either. It would work in a course designed for the study of Feudal governments. However there are several problems. 1. It is doubtful that a movie would provide enough detail, to warrant a meaningful class discussion. A: The issue of who should rule Gondor is primarily an issue dealt with in RoTK, which isn't yet out as a movie. B: The LoTR is not primarily a tale about the reclaiming of a throne. Which means any real details would have to come from students reading and studying LoTR in depth. Which is time consuming, and better suited at a collegiate level (remember I'm assuming this is for a high school class). 2. History already provides plenty of detailed cases for the study and discussion of Feudal governments. A: Tolkien provided genealogical tables a-plenty for the ruling heads of Gondor. But it is debatable wether or not he provided enough detail on the workings of the Gondorian government, to justify a discussion about a fictional claim to kingship, in an educational setting. Sorry Arwen, I don't see much hope for your mother justifying the showing of FoTR in class. Nor was I attempting to make any kind of personal attack on Elda, by ripping her suggestion to shreds.

10-05-2002, 09:16 AM	#8
Beren87 Master of the Secret Fire Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Between fire and ice, death and life Posts: 2,241	Eldanuumea, you have a lot of faith in teens.

10-05-2002, 09:29 AM	#9
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 512	Eldanuumea: Welcome to the Downs! My sister had to watch the movie in class for a values class. I thought that the civics amd values were the same---my thoughts are randomly dyslexic today. Oh me! Elda's suggestions are great, but the first thing that came into mind was the dynamics of the fellowship, which is a feeble attempt to conect the movie with civics. The Council of Elrond is a great example of diplomatic relations and treaty formations (anyone with better terminology can correct me). Hobbiton's politics are not very clear. They don't have a ruler to represent them, but it's a great culture to study and analyze. __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

10-05-2002, 10:54 AM	#10
Arwen Imladris Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: In a box with a fox Posts: 1,347	Thanks guys! It is a grade 10 Civics class, in Canada if you want to know. If you have anymore suggestions, Please post! __________________ "Wake up! Wake up! Wake up, sleepies, we must go, yes, we must go at once."

10-05-2002, 11:28 AM	#11
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Much as I love the book, I can't really see it being used in a Canadian Civics class. Can't see much connection between the parliamentary system and a hereditary monarchy ruled by fiat. Now an Ethics class might be a possiblity, but not a Civics class. I could see it being taught in a English Lit class, or a Drama class, or maybe even a History class if you were doing comparisons. I could even see it being used in a Math class. "If Frodo sets out from Hobbiton at a speed of 10 miles a day, and Gandalf sets out from Orthanc..." [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

10-05-2002, 02:12 PM	#12
Donisile Of Mirkwood Animated Skeleton Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: UK Posts: 36	Quote: I could see it being taught in a English Lit class, or a Drama class, or maybe even a History class if you were doing comparisons. I could even see it being used in a Math class. "If Frodo sets out from Hobbiton at a speed of 10 miles a day, and Gandalf sets out from Orthanc..." HAHA! That is the funniest thing i have heard in a long time,that has made a so far miserable day good !! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Let it not be said and said unto your shame that there was beauty here before you came.

10-05-2002, 09:47 PM	#13
Eldanuumea Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 11	Tarthang, that's quite all right......I have been on forums long enough to have developed a much thicker skin than I started out with!! I was stretching a good bit, trying to create a reasonable rationale. I teach high school English, and will be teaching FOTR for the first time in November-December. Does anyone have any specific suggestions for conveying the magic of Middle Earth to underachieving, unmotivated learners? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] __________________ "There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." - Gandalf the Grey

10-05-2002, 11:33 PM	#14
Brinniel Reflection of Darkness Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Polishing the stars. Well, somebody has to do it; they're looking a little bit dull. Posts: 2,983	After making your students read LOTR (which is pure torture for them, I know ), you could always have act out scenes from the book. Or, better yet, you could teach your class in costume! Ok, maybe that's getting a little carried away, but if it helps....... __________________ Nolite te bastardes carborundorum Last edited by Brinniel; 02-03-2007 at 09:56 PM.

10-06-2002, 06:12 AM	#15
Eldanuumea Pile O'Bones Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Mississippi Posts: 11	Wish I knew where to get a Gandalf costume! That would be great fun! __________________ "There are older and fouler things than Orcs in the deep places of the world." - Gandalf the Grey

10-16-2002, 04:28 PM	#17
Tigerlily Gamgee Hostess of Spirits Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Meduseld Posts: 1,055	LOTR in school, you say??? If you don't believe that it could really happen check out this link!!! http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2002/...222635762.html __________________ ~ ExerciseJunky.com (Hobbits fitness of choice!)~ ~Lady of Rohan: An Eowyn Fansite ~ ~The NEW/OLD Barrow Downs Photo Page~