Ent-wives slaves

[Morsul the Dark]

I didn't want to start a new thread for this but I can't find the thread about food production in Mordor...

anyway heres the general Idea someonme argued there have to be fields east of mordor so saruon can feed his people. well if this is true I can imagine orcs tending them so is it possible the entwives were enslaved by sauron to attend the fields under threat of fire the brownlands could possibly be the site of battle in which they were enslaved....?

[Lord Melkor]

The armies of Mordor are fed by extensive fields around the Sea of Nurn and are tended to by human slaves, as explained in RotK. The vast majority of these slaves are probably from Rhun and Harad, send as tribute to Mordor. It is possible that the Entwives were captured by Sauron to be used as caretakers for his fields, but that is doubtful. I reckon the number of guards needed to make sure the Entwives would not escape would've made human slaves far more costeffective. After all, though the Entwives were not as wild as the male Ents I think they would still pose a formidable challenge to a band of Orcs. It is more likely that they were all killed in the Second Age when Sauron destroyed the lands of the Entwives, turning them into the Brown Lands.

[Celebuial]

I think Lord Melkor hit the nail on the head with his post... but can you imagine how bad a bunch of slaves the Entwives would've been if they were anything like the Ents? They would've been slow to do anything and surely exceedingly hard to controll not to mention the fact that they seem even more moody and seem to be a little more motivated and decisive... A funny image though isn't it? A group of Uruks beeing stamped on and hurled about by a bunch of angry hormonal 'living trees'! That'll teach 'em to mess around with nature and an angry woman.

[Mänwe]

Alas the "Master" himself suggests that the Ent-wives may have been slaves. I quote and apologise for the long quote but it is needed;

"I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it2). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know." - (Letter #144) [My emphasis]

I therefore find the idea of Ent-wives being enslaved far from ludicrous and rather possible, not just because Tolkien himself suggested it! But that,'man' is able to subdue and domesticate eliphants which bear the same size ratio with man, as an Ent-wife would to an orc.

[JennyHallu]

They would've been slow to do anything and surely exceedingly hard to controll not to mention the fact that they seem even more moody and seem to be a little more motivated and decisive...

I'm not sure...I kind of got the impression the Entwives had less patience than their mates, and would be more likely to accept an enforced order.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mänwë

Alas the "Master" himself suggests that the Ent-wives may have been slaves. I quote and apologise for the long quote but it is needed;

"I think that in fact the Entwives had disappeared for good, being destroyed with their gardens in the War of the Last Alliance (Second Age 3429-3441) when Sauron pursued a scorched earth policy and burned their land against the advance of the Allies down the Anduin (vol. II p. 79 refers to it2). They survived only in the 'agriculture' transmitted to Men (and Hobbits). Some, of course, may have fled east, or even have become enslaved: tyrants even in such tales must have an economic and agricultural background to their soldiers and metal-workers. If any survived so, they would indeed be far estranged from the Ents, and any rapprochement would be difficult – unless experience of industrialized and militarized agriculture had made them a little more anarchic. I hope so. I don't know." - (Letter #144) [My emphasis]

I therefore find the idea of Ent-wives being enslaved far from ludicrous and rather possible, not just because Tolkien himself suggested it! But that,'man' is able to subdue and domesticate eliphants which bear the same size ratio with man, as an Ent-wife would to an orc.

Hmmm. Hmmm. Do I smell the possibility of an RPG? A fairly ambitious RPG as it would involve ent characters, who aren't especially well represented in our RPGs here, and, more so, female ents, who aren't even represented in LotR! Wow, talk about the difficulty in creating canonical characters in an RPG.

It would be a game exploring the biotechnology proclivities of Sauron et al. Perhaps the entwives were, as the elves were, broken and degraded, but not to become orcs; instead, to become genetically engineered ents?

Monsauron!

Frankenents!

On the other hand, a depiction of Entwives becoming, in Tolkien's words, "more anarchic" would have some very interesting mythological possibilities. Amerindian legends are full of stories of how women and female spirits are more daring and imaginative than their male counterparts. Perhaps this kind of RPG would explore how the Entwives became more Eve-like and refused restrictions? Would Tolkien really have wanted Entwives to be like Lilith? What a fascinating avenue to explore.

[JennyHallu]

I don't think that by more anarchic Tolkien meant Lilith. The Entwives' fatal flaw wasn't that they were lovers of order and plan, but that they refused to accept or value the wildness the Ents loved. By more anarchic, I think he meant that they themselves should be less willing to attempt to impose their will on others. Perhaps Tolkien means to imply that had they welcomed the Ents into their gardens, mud and wildness and all, and created something new, bigger than the wilderness or the garden, they might have all survived together and in strength.

[Mänwe]

Bêthberry an interesting idea. Though one, as you say hard to achieve given the lack of RP'ing on this site. Perhaps then it would be more worthy to retain the Ent-wives for discussion, then to dirty them with poor Rp'ing?

Though allegory and other comparisons against the "Masters" work, is something we know he does not warm too. He says so in his letters that he dislikes the use of allegory on his trilogy.

Though understandable that such a wide variety of comparison can be easily made on Lotr, for it is the best literary work this world shall ever witness.

[JennyHallu]

Bêthberry an interesting idea. Though one, as you say hard to achieve given the lack of RP'ing on this site. Perhaps then it would be more worthy to retain the Ent-wives for discussion, then to dirty them with poor Rp'ing?

Manwe, there is actually a very active and high-quality RP presence on this site, as you can see in the forums "The Shire", "Rohan", and "Gondor". Bethberry is one of its most skilled contributors, and I fancy my own dabblings aren't too terrible either.

[Mänwe]

JennyHallu I did not mean in the slightest to infer that anyone on this site was a poor RP'er. I am sure that you both are the epitome of the perfect RP'er, and I shall hopefully in the future be able to interact with your characters.

I meant only that, the Rp'ing may be a little "weak" if no-one had ever Rp'ed an Ent before. As Bêthberry said, it would be hard, and I was merely agreeing. I would consider myself an able RP'er too, having done so to some lengths on the 'lotrplaza' site.

Please accept my apology if I came across rude, I did not mean too at all.

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Mänwë

JennyHallu I did not mean in the slightest to infer that anyone on this site was a poor RP'er. I am sure that you both are the epitome of the perfect RP'er, and I shall hopefully in the future be able to interact with your characters.

I meant only that, the Rp'ing may be a little "weak" if no-one had ever Rp'ed an Ent before. As Bêthberry said, it would be hard, and I was merely agreeing. I would consider myself an able RP'er too, having done so to some lengths on the 'lotrplaza' site.

Please accept my apology if I came across rude, I did not mean too at all.

Oh, I didn't say no one had ever done an Ent character in an RPG on the Barrow Downs. I merely said they weren't common and that suggested that entwives would require great skill to portray.

Originally Posted by Bethberry

Hmmm. Hmmm. Do I smell the possibility of an RPG? A fairly ambitious RPG as it would involve ent characters, who aren't especially well represented in our RPGs here, and, more so, female ents, who aren't even represented in LotR! Wow, talk about the difficulty in creating canonical characters in an RPG.

In fact, we have at least two Ent characters in games here, which I think are very ably drawn. Out of modesty, I name first Child of the 7th's Age Peachblossom, in Threat of the Trees, a game which covers this very topic here, although from a different angle from that I considered. And an entwife no less!

The other is my own Shepherd of the Trees, in the game Rohan, Treetop. Again, a game somewhat different from that contemplated here.

I thank you, Manwë, for your clarification and apology. A less hasty reply often has merit. Perhaps you might enjoy reading over some of the extensive games here on the Downs? Active games are in The Shire, Rohan and Gondor forums, while completed games can be found in Elvenhome. You might even consider reading over the gaming rules in those active forums and taking a stab at a character in The Green Dragon or Rohan's new Mead Hall.

Hoom hah, sirrah!

[Mänwe]

Bêthberry, alas I am prone to hastiness, a fault I strive to rid of often. Alas being mortal I have the need to do all things possible quickly. I suppose that is why I chose such a character as a Valar, being "immortal" gives me far more time to mull things over!

No doubt my next stop shall be the RP's, once I have had a hefty stab at the lore which I do so adore.

[JennyHallu]

alas I am prone to hastiness, a fault I strive to rid of often

Then an Entish character may prove an especial challenge. Looking forward to seeing you in the Green Dragon!

[Tuor of Gondolin]

It would be a game exploring the biotechnology proclivities of Sauron et al. Perhaps the entwives were, as the elves were, broken and degraded, but not to become orcs; instead, to become genetically engineered ents?

Not all that improbable, given that one thoery (the prevaling one?)
for the origin of orcs is broken (and genetically altered) elves.
If elves were so treated, including by Morgoth in Thangorodrim,
then why not ents?

[JennyHallu]

I'm not sure. We have documentation of Morgoth twisting creatures in that way, but is there actual evidence that Sauron, a lesser being, was capable of such on his own?

[Gothmog]

Here's a wild theory (one that I don't believe in myself, but it's interesting to speculate ): We know that the orcs was made as a mockery of elves, and at least partly from tortured and twisted elves. The exact source of the orcs hasn't been proved if I remember earlier discussions correctly. There's multiple factors behind the orcs, but this is one. We also know that trolls was made as a mockery of Ents (again, not completely proved but a highly accepted theory). Is it possible that some of the Entwives was twisted into trolls, like the Elves was turned into Orcs? Presuming Sauron had the power to do that of course.

The poor Entwife-slaves was also used as lab rats and was subjects to Saurons twisted experiments! And you feel sorry for the Ents that was left without wives!?

The only way to know where the entwives went is by solving this riddle I guess. If there even is an answer...

[Estelyn Telcontar]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

In fact, we have at least two Ent characters in games here...

Well, and one with a multiple personality disorder, but he's in a parody, so "The Entish Bow" doesn't really count, I suppose.

[Tuor in Gondolin]

Is it possible that some of the Entwives was twisted into trolls, like the Elves was turned into Orcs? Presuming Sauron hade the power to do that of course.

Good grief! Could this mean that William and his buddies had
sex change operations!
It could explain their cranky attitude.

Actually, Gothmog has an interesting theory.

[Lalwendë]

There was a particularly good Ent character played in the Green Dragon (our free form 'pub' RPG in the Shire RPG forum) some months ago, and she was an Entwife, too. I cannot remember the name of the character off the top of my head, but she may have been in the Green Dragon sometime around page 20 or so...

It's interesting thinking about whether such a character would be canonical or not. Tolkien created the Entwives, but he did not go as far as to actually present us with one. Would it be acceptable to assume what the character might be like? I think it might be, as Tolkien after all hoped that others would come after him "wielding paint and music and drama".

Maybe an anarchic Entwife would be appropriate? It could be a return to the concept of the Wildwood...she could have the character of Old Man Willow perhaps?

[piosenniel]

Just a reference post:

The character in The Green Dragon Inn, an Ent maiden, started on page 27 / post 1075.

[Elu Ancalime]

Well....Sauron did create the Uruk-hai....and maybe Sauron did some gene splicing between uruks, mountain trolls, and another troll like being....Perhaps in the Second Age, Sauron did capture some Entwives, and tortured them into some horrid being that resembeled a gnareled tree but with troll-like disposition. But waving off the wife part, then the Entish characteristics would reenter troll DNA (or whatever) to enhance brute strength, resiliance to the Sun that most trolls didnt have, and a more thick and hard skin/hide(like the bark of an Ent/tree). Coupled with the manuverability and intellegence from Uruks, the Olog-hai could then use and understand other melee weapons (besides club weapons, obviously excluding rang weapons), plus comprehend the need (and reason) for using a shield, and possibly light armor. Also, since Olog-hai appear to have some whiskers, so maybe some mannish strain was entered (for stubborness, the Sun resistance, etc), but maybe also a Half-Orc/Goblin Man like those Sauruman bred.

Of course, there is some speculation there, but its a rather interesting theory.
________
2008 Cup

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Estelyn Telcontar

Well, and one with a multiple personality disorder, but he's in a parody, so "The Entish Bow" doesn't really count, I suppose.

Well, he's--

Hmm. She? Does the bow/pegleg/other pieces become an Entwife? This what happened to the Entwives! Sundered from artistic unity into parodic replication? Do I hear another cameo waiting in the curtains?

Actually, I was thinking that your Ent hasn't yet been "Reunificated" so he perhaps does not constitute a "fully rounded character" yet.

[Mänwe]

JennyHallu, yes it would be a challenge indeed, though I would much rather role play a character of a race I am far more familiar, call me a bore if you will, but I find it far more comforting to remain in familiar grounds on this subject. As for your query to whether Sauron was able to do so, I would suggest that Sauron was not able to do so. So far as he did not need too; the reign on Melkor had been sufficient enough and his power sufficient to “twist” the image of the elves,

“But of those unhappy ones who were ensnared by Melkor little is known of a certainty. For who of the living has descended into the pits of Utumno, or has explored the darkness of the counsels of Melkor? Yet this is held true by the wise of Eressëa, that all those of the Quendi who came into the hands of Melkor, ere Utumno was broken, were put there in prison, and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved; and thus did Melkor breed the hideous race of the Orcs in envy and mockery of the Elves, of whom they were afterwards the bitterest foes. For the Orcs had life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar;…” - Chapter 3 Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor

The conclusive evidence provided by the Silmarillion enables us to “blame” this atrocity on Melkor, yet their reproduction in the like of the Elves enabled many to come into the service of Melkor before the rule of Sauron that he did not need too.

There is reference in the Lord of the Rings trilogy to the orcs “multiplying”. I believe the reference is in the appendix.

Gothmog and JennyHallu, would you concur that the quotation provides a “source” of the orc? However there is quotation in Letter 153, as follows;

“As for other points. I think I agree about the 'creation by evil'. But you are more free with the word 'creation' than I am. Treebeard does not say that the Dark Lord 'created' Trolls and Orcs. He says he 'made' them in counterfeit of certain creatures pre-existing.” – [Letter #153]

You will notice that the words ‘Dark Lord’ are used, one of the many alias Sauron was known as. Yet the creation of orcs we know to have been at a far more early stage, as shown by my first quotation, than the coming of Sauron and the giving of the alias ‘Dark Lord’. Therefore could it be referring to Morgoth? Possibly.

However Tolkien uses the words ‘Prime Dark Lord’ in an earlier sentence in the same letter, to which he means Morgoth. (I will not post the quote for I fear I am already waffling. Though if you wish it then I would edit it in.) Therefore are we to assume that this alias is one he would actually use to name Morgoth or is it merely a means to describe the primacy and complete origins of Morgoth?

I think not, and would suggest that Sauron could indeed continue the work of Morgoth in twisting creatures to his will and into a like that he desired; Ent to Troll. The subject of Saurons power to ‘create’ is furthered perhaps by the existence of the following quote,

“That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.” – Appendix F [My bold]

And so your suggestion Elu as to the genome of the Olog hai being in two parts, from the Ents is a little tenuous. They were altered Trolls, created by Sauron. Thoughts??

[Mänwe]

In regards to my last post, I would rather have boldened the quote like this;

“That Sauron bred them none doubted, though from what stock was not known. Some held that they were not Trolls but giant Orcs; but the Olog-hai were in fashion of body and mind quite unlike even the largest of Orc-kind, whom they far surpassed in size and power. Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race, strong, agile, fierce and cunning, but harder than stone. Unlike the older race of the Twilight they could endure the Sun, so long as the will of Sauron held sway over them.” – Appendix F [My bold]

Thus it is that they are under his will, and have been twisted to it.

[Mänwe]

Perhaps we might continue the discussion? Adding only partially to my last post, that all creatures that had been twisted into his service were ruled by him, via fear.

Originally Posted by Lord Melkor

The armies of Mordor are fed by extensive fields around the Sea of Nurn and are tended to by human slaves, as explained in RotK. The vast majority of these slaves are probably from Rhun and Harad, send as tribute to Mordor. It is possible that the Entwives were captured by Sauron to be used as caretakers for his fields, but that is doubtful. I reckon the number of guards needed to make sure the Entwives would not escape would've made human slaves far more costeffective. After all, though the Entwives were not as wild as the male Ents I think they would still pose a formidable challenge to a band of Orcs. It is more likely that they were all killed in the Second Age when Sauron destroyed the lands of the Entwives, turning them into the Brown Lands.

They were killed? Treebeard'll be dissapointed....

[Sardy]

Originally Posted by Celebuial

I...can you imagine how bad a bunch of slaves the Entwives would've been if they were anything like the Ents? They would've been slow to do anything and surely exceedingly hard to controll not to mention the fact that they seem even more moody and seem to be a little more motivated and decisive... A funny image though isn't it?

To play Devil's Advocate, the Ents sure weren't slow or unmotivated when they leveled Isengard...

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by Sardy

To play Devil's Advocate, the Ents sure weren't slow or unmotivated when they leveled Isengard...

Also, entwives themselves seem to be highly eficient in matters of agriculture, imposing their own order upon nature.

I think there is an interesting paralel between the story of the ents & entwives:

Originally Posted by Treebeard, TTT

But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have both lost all that we now have

and that of Aragorn and Arwen:

Originally Posted by The third age, Prologue and appendices to LotR, HoME XII

Then Arwen departed and dwelt alone and widowed in the fading woods of Loth-lorien; and it came to pass for her as Elrond foretold that she would not leave the world until she had lost all for which she made her choice.

[Mänwe]

Something rather amusing in support of Sardy’s point on the speed of Ents I was directed to the following quote;

“'Tolkien made various calculations of the length and speed of an Ent-stride, adjusting to what he felt the distance and length of the journey required. His final conclusion was probably that 'an Ent would take nearly nine hours to do 70,000 strides and presumably in that time would go 70,000 yards at least , probably at 4ft a stride.' This meant about 2.2 strides of 4ftper second, covering a distance of 53.3 miles, at a speed of about 6 miles per hour. (Other calculations note that at 2 strides per second, 70, 00 strides would take 9.2/3 hours, and 70,000 strides of 3 feet would be about 40 miles)…"

In another note, Tolkien writes;

"Ents are (as long as they can drink running water) almost tireless. They can go at c.12 m.p.h. - averaging say 10 hours (even 24) at a stretch. Max {imum} speed of Treebeard was 20 m.p.h. when charging.” - (Companion to LOTR by Hammond & Scull)

20m.p.h is a respectable speed for something that has lived longer than the average Grandparent! Though I confess I do not know the “notes of Tolkien” from which they have taken this. Thus this illustrates their power and usefulness especially within the highly labour intensive practice of agriculture.

And so raise a little contention with Lord Melkor’s point that they would not be cost effective. The size and obvious “power” of the Ent would surely be worth a hundred human slaves, which all require feeding in order to survive (barely) so they might continue their labour. And Ent on the other hand need no food, other than “running water”, which given in the quote above, would make them tireless.

Again making them more cost effective and efficient than human slaves who at some point no matter how much whipping will need to rest, it seems to me that the cost of a few more guards per Ent then for human would be very much worth it.


Secondly I would like to draw attention to following pencilled note Tolkien made in one of this letters;

“…and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna.'” - (Letter #247)

I use this quote to suggest that the disappearance of the Ent-wives was because of their devotion to Yavanna. Like Radagast became enamoured with the birds and beasts of Middle Earth (I need not provide the quote, I am sure everyone has heard it a dozen times) they too became “as one” with nature and consequently became tree-ish.

“’Oh, no!’ said Treebeard. ’None have died from inside, as you might say. Some have fallen in the evil chances of the long years, of course, and more have gone tree-ish.” - (Treebeard, The Two Towers)

They did not pass away, but simply became trees, perhaps because of their devotion to Yavanna at an accelerated rate then the male variety. Comments?

Raynor also brings an interesting parallel which I think can be tied into the fate of the Ent-wives. The quote he uses (I include the sentence before for purposes I shall make clear);

“We believe that we may meet again in a time to come, and perhaps we shall find somewhere a land where we can live together and both be content. But it is foreboded that that will only be when we have both lost all that we now have.” - (Treebeard, The Two Towers)

All spirits from those of the living depart to the Halls of Mandos, Arwen waits for the time when her life is spent and she will find herself there, only then will she meet with Aragorn again.

I therefore propose that this is what the Ents are waiting for the loss of existence, either through destruction or their change into more tree-ish beings (perhaps the spirit does not leave), and is the “land” that they will find the Ent-wives. For were they not all spirits inhabiting tree structures? Do I stand on firm ground or is it all cock and bull nonsence?