WWJ XII: "Oh the tangled web we weave..."

[Nogrod]

Just a couple of preliminary notes to begin with while announcing that my goats seem to be satisfied for the time being and I have a chance to join the effort here.

The "schism" between Rikae, Lommy and Mac looks interesting indeed, but it might also be three innocents trying to do something useful and having the time to be online at the early hours of the Day with no one elses words to pick up. I mean, after the last game my father went thorugh I have learned to be even more careful with those who hide in the shadows and avoid the bright sunshine of arguments and debates (*coughEonwecough*).

The best place for a thing, I believe, is around the open arguments, mildly supporting or critizing the views brought forwards but not actually taking openly part in them. Then they can say they have been in the discussion and thence are not flying under the radar but have avoided to risk themselves by actually presenting cases or arguments of their own (from which they could be held accountable, were they "right or wrong" - I mean had they been innocents and backed the wrong horse or be they villains knowingly making a "misjudgement"...).

I admit that I thought of Rikae's first post at least eyebrow-raising stuff, but now I'm not so sure anymore. She seems to speak in a reasonably innocent voice. Something similar goes for Mac. He has been a bit... well how should one say it... tight? (I do not agree with Jenny who says that he has been aggressive) But being innocent he would probably make just those points? (SO: being a thingy he would so the same too?) And Lommy I find not the more suspicious she normally is - which isn't much said as she tends to be suspected everytime she plays.

I'll have to look at the posting more closely before trying to form any clearer ideas. And the dynamics of this game surely would merit some discussion too, even though our first objective must be getting one thing toDay.

I'll be back after a while.

PS. Rikae, don't be afraid. My goats will provide you with enough milk to your cheeses. Goatmilk tastes pretty bad as such anyway...

EDIT: X-d with Rune, Rikae & Kitanna...

[Folwren]

I am writing this on a word processor as I read through the thread. . .I’m already thirty posts behind. Harhar.

First thing first:

Lommy: I really don’t think Rikae should be suspected just now because of her first post. Last time I wrote a first post to try to break the ice, I was killed for it (well, it started the ball rolling that eventually got me killed). She was breaking ice, being humorous, writing in character, and saying that these things apply to her. Maybe they do, maybe they don’t, but an innocent is more likely to admit something they say or do looking fishy than a wolf/thing is. She acts like an innocent.

I think Rikae’s done some research. I’m reading post #24 now. She seems pretty knowledgeable about what’s happened in past times in different villages. She’s not shy, either. She leaps right into things, more so than I usually do, which I take as a good sign. If she were a thing, I don’t think she’d be so forward!

Reaching Lommy’s vote now. . .I can’t believe it. Dear, you could’ve done anything other than that!! You might suspect Rikae, but you do realize that the more you read her posts, the less you actually do suspect her - and at least she contributes to the game!!!!!! You might’ve gone after someone less likely to. I do realize that you had to vote for somebody, but that seems hard. That seems really hard.

Just reached post #35, which is the last one up just now. I disconnected once it was all loaded. . .

*sigh* Such early votes. Did you have to vote so soon, Gil? I should have waited if I were you. Rune was making a joke, that’s obvious, and it wasn’t terribly smart, either, maybe, but I don’t like lynching people because of their occupation or because of some small, humorous they say in one of their firsts posts. . . same goes for Rikae, all her saying ‘I fill the bill, lynch me!’ You know neither of them can be serious.

Now, my own thoughts on these matters and what has been said.

Mac seems to be trying to make sense with very little to go on. Generally what happens on Day 1 with fairly good players. He made an initial post and has spent the rest of his time explaining himself.

Lommy started with a crash and a bang of accusing Rikae of being suspicious. She continued to say that Rikae was getting less and less suspicious in her eyes, but then finishes her Day 1 career by voting for her. It’s an irksome thing, it really is. That’s what she did to me last time and I dislike it.

Jenny popped in with a list of who had posted and who hadn’t, made the pretty safe assumption that a Thing had spoken already. (Lommy leaped on her, too, for that. . .) Jenny said little else.
Volo has said very little, added next to no contribution to the discussion, so far as I can make out. Sorry, ol’ chap.

Glirdan, Gil-Galad, and Rune have also said very little and have also made very little contribution. Gil has voted for Rune.

And I think that covers all of us? Except me. Jack has said that he thinks Rikae is innocent, Lommy loves to attack people, Mac tries to make sense, Jenny has stated lists and....yeah.....read the post.

As of now, I am most inclined to suspect Lommy, but I have really only read over all the posts once (quickly), and quite a few other villagers have yet to post and yet to put in their thoughts and ideas.

– Jack

Cross posted with: Volo, Jenny, Rune, Rikae, Kitanna, and Nogrod.

[Macalaure]

First off, I agree with what Folwren states about Lommy. I'm quite uneasy about her, for the same reasons.


The first time I played with Kitanna I was suspicious about her very early on - and she turned out to be the ranger. Now, again, I feel very suspicious about her because of her last post. I don't know what to make of this.

Originally Posted by Kitanna, about Rikae

Her constant return to the fact "I'll probably be lynched" and "My death will prove my innocence" is unnerving.Also I'm a bit suspcious of the comparsions of other games, when comparing this villages to other villages could have no real bearing in the end. Her points in the first post state the obvious and though she hasn't taken all sides into consideration I think she is thinking logically.

Constant return? She only returned to it because other people talked about it. And if you say Rikae just stated the obvious, then why did you comment on the obvious just before?

Originally Posted by Kitanna, about me

And he keeps returning to his defense of "not attacking Rikae" causing her to remain in the spotlight. Rikae was already in the spotlight because of Lommy, but Mac continued to keep her there. He states he "defended" Rikae against Lommy and that screams guilty in my mind. He's making sure we notice Rikae and if she dies innocent in the next day or two we'll remember Mac was saying so all along.

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about. Many have said I attacked Rikae, and I agree that it might have looked like it, but I don't feel her guilty (not in the beginning and even less now), so I'm making exactly that clear to everybody who asks. Even though Lommy voted for her, I don't think she'll be lynched today, so I don't think that the plan you think I'm having would even work.

I was extremely worried about her after reading her first posts, but my susipicions have lessened a bit after reading further.
...
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but it seems a bit foul to me.

Do I see a pattern behind that?
I've seen that kind of relativising of suspicion before, but mostly from wolves.

[Kitanna]

Constant return? She only returned to it because other people talked about it.

In her first post she brought it up about four times right after making a point. I'd call that a constant return.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I was wondering, should we stick to normal wolf-hunting-methods through out the game or does these thing require new methods?

I am not sure about this that is why I ask. If we think some new stuff up, we might take the things by suprise, but we also risk the things leading us in a wrong direction. . . .

[Nogrod]

Oh those blasted goats! Sorry I was diverted to other "things"...

But I had time to consider something concerning the principles here.

And really the dynamics of this game are very different indeed from any earlier games... There's a host of differences.

I know some people have not liked my forefathers making this kind of comments, but I also know that some of the good people (those concerned) have been happy about them when we have confronted a new gaming envirovment and new tricks made possible by new rules.

So just to mention this. Please Ranger! Stay calm, avoid being picked by the thingies and pick wisely yourself! You are our greatest asset in this game! The Seer and the Weaver will have valuable knowledge, but it will be transient and thence unsure as the status of people here will change. But the Ranger practically kills a thing with every save s/he makes! So we can lynch the things during the Days but the Ranger may also effectively "kill" them during the Nights (by not allowing the next one to transform)!

It's also funny to know that first time in my family's history I can go to sleep with a somewhat relaxed mind (excluding those ancestors of mine who were cursed by lycantrophy). I can't die toNight! The things kill one of their own during the Night, so they will be the tense ones facing the Night. We surely are facing the chance of becoming thingies ourselves, but that still means we can stay in the game and continue the fun...

This looks interesting indeed.

I'll be back with something more concrete soon. Just felt I had to say this.

EDIT: X-d with Mac, Kitanna and Rune

[Macalaure]

What do you mean by "the Ranger may also effectively "kill" them during the Nights"?

Originally Posted by the rules

The only way to kill a Thing will be during the day with a lynching.

If the ranger is successful, nothing happens. As always. That's good, but it doesn't mean a thing is killed. Maybe the things are even happy about successful rangers.

But I doubt we can take them by surprise. I mean, they read what we're saying just like we do, don't they?

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Macalaure

What do you mean by "the Ranger may also effectively "kill" them during the Nights"?

One thing dies every Night, right? No ordo dies. They, the things, kill one of themselves.

Then they choose one villager to be turned into a thing. If that does not happen (eg. the Ranger saves the one), there will be one thing less the next Day. So reducing their numbers aka effectively "killing" them...

[Folwren]

Oh!! I think you're right! Ingenious, Nogrod!

Kitanna, I think you and others are taking Rikae's first post far too seriously. I've been burnt by posting first and saying something careless, and I don't want to see anyone else burned, too. I tell you, if she were a 'Thing' she wouldn't have brought so much attention to herself by saying 'I'm doing this, I will probably be lynched.' Poor thing probably regrets her first post now that she's written it. I am not at all saying that she's beyond doubt and beyond be suspected, but for heavens sake - let's not condemn her for her first post!!

Rune, I don't know what tactics are usually used in regular WW beyond suspecting every word every body says, leaning on gut feelings, and waiting for the seer to speak up or die. What more can we do here?

-- Jack

[JennyHallu]

Actually, I think a Thing dies as a result of a new one being made. If a new Thing is not made, the old one does not die.

[Rune Son of Bjarne]

I am just letting you know that I will leave now, but I will be back before the day ends

[Nogrod]

Good point Jenny!

This is what the rules say:

The 3 Things work as follows. The Things may pm with each other at night only. They will be assigned a random # each night by the Mod(me) Ex: Thing #1, Thing #2 and Thing #3. This will change each night and the Things are unaware who is what #. Each night the Things will have two duties. They will first each pm me a Thing, either #1, 2 or 3 (remember they do not know who is what)The thing with the most votes "wins". They will then discuss who shall be their victim, and pm me the name. The villager they pick will not die. The Chosen Thing will instead snatch the body of the chosen victim. The chosen Thing will then in turn die and the chosen villager will now be a Thing. Ex: Ok so say Myself, Lommy and Nogrod are Things. We chose Thing #3 for the night who happens to be say, me. And we chose to "kill" Naria (Ordo) I would die that night and be replace by Naria who would be told of her transformation and let in on who are the other things. The Thing that dies will be known as an Ordo at their death.

and:

The Ranger will pm me their choice nightly of who they wish to protect for the night, they may protect the same villager twice in a row, but twice only. They must then protect someone else for at least one night.

I think Valier should clarify this issue... a lot of the tactics we may pursue depends on her judgement over this...

[Valier]

Note from beyond: A Thing only dies when they sucessfully switch bodies with a villager. If the Ranger protects someone and the Things chose that villager a Thing does not die. Nothing happens on that night.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by Valier

Note from beyond: A Thing only dies when they sucessfully switch bodies with a villager. If the Ranger protects someone and the Things chose that villager a Thing does not die. Nothing happens on that night.

So I was wrong then...

But thank's for the information.

At least I have to think this general tactics stuff all over again. But first I will at last try to stick with what is actually said toDay. For however the rules go, this Day1 will be most likely as any other Day1 would be. The new rules start to bite hard only from toMorrow on (the things might anticipate the stuff to come, but most likely we will have to play with conventional wisdom / cluelesness here).

[Nogrod]

Okay.

Here are my thoughts so far. I will continue this, but these were the "easiest" to form an opinion to begin with...

Naria: Not posted yet, nothing to say.

Briseis: Not posted yet, nothing to say.

Eonwe: Not posted yet, nothing to say. But him being the quiet wolf in my last game makes me quite reserved with anything he will say or do in this game. I know it is unfair, but I will look at him very closely this time around, as and if he comes around...

Glirdan: Has basically just reported in... Nothing to say so far.

Gil: Two posts. Not much to take hold on. Defending Rikae somewhat but playing it down also:

Aye, Rikae is not that suspicous in my eye, but if she turns out to actually be a thing then we've all been played for fools this first day.

Voting Rune with no apparent reason given, but:

Thus my vote must go to Rune, it probably won't be to effect but its a start.

I might say this is "Gil-Galadish", even quite outspoken version from his family-tree... Hard to say. And with my last experience with Eonwe, I would not exclude him from my vote toDay. But surely, no good reasons to suspect him either but only to be certain about him...

Meneltarmacil: Two posts so far. I would have awaited more from him (not exactly on numbers but of substance). But he had a point also when saying:

Catching these Things and making 'em walk the plank will be tough, as you really can't trust anyone, even known innocents. Shiver me timbers, it be a dire scenario! I personally would only follow up on suspicions rather than rely on "known innocents" here, as they have a way of changing on you.

That might be said by an innocent or a thing alike. Over this one he only managed to go to and fro with Rune... Don't know but don't like either. I want to hear more from him.

Folwren: two posts as well. Ringing innocent to my ears. She is staunchly defending Rikae for her first post as she was the victim of a similar kind of suspicion in the last one. Sounds true to me. At least what can be said with some confidence is that on the basis of #42 they probably will not be things both of them. That would be too daring at least thinking of Folwren (Sorry Foley ). Generally she seems to be very sensible indeed and speaking the words of wisdom. Not my suspect for the time being (tomorrow may be different as this game will be crazy enough with the switching identities).

So seven people on this "easy" list. With the probabilities at least one of them is a thing... So who? Hard to say as some of them have not yet posted, but Menel should come forwards if he wishes to avoid my suspicions. Gil I'm a bit embarrased about (wouldn't like to be leading yet another lynch of an innocent Gil) as he justmade a post suspicious enough... And Eonwe I can't vote before he says anything and will (unfairly) look at him really closely this time...

Very hard to say.

Hopefully my look on the more difficult cases proves a better guide...

[Folwren]

Golly, this is a shockingly slow day. Where are the other people? Naria, Briseis, Eonwe? Glirdan? Hopefully they'll pop up soon.

Nogrod, nice to know your thoughts on everyone. I'm assuming that since you didn't mention Lommy, Rikae, or Mac in that last post, you want us to read your earlier posts on them? (And were you saying I'm not very daring? I nearly killed myself once, being too daring in RL. . .) But yes, you're right, in this instance. I like being careful in these games.

I understand how you feel concerning Eonwe, but you must try not to let it make you prejudice.

And that's all I've got to say.

-- Jack

[Meneltarmacil]

Arrr, I believe we be focusing a great deal on Rikae here, and it be enough to make me peg leg itch. Not that she be necessarily innocent, but I'd bet a bottle of rum that one of her attackers be a Thing.

Diverting attention onto a likely-sounding target be the way a Thing works. Takes it off them, that way, they don't have to defend themselves.

In particular, though, Macalaure posted something unsightly a while back:

Hmmm. I have to admit that your post would usually make me very, very suspicious of you. But this is your first game, so I'll be nice.

I've heard tales of stuff like this happening, and it looks bad. One Thing tries to preserve the life of another one by stating what's wrong with his/her post. The other Thing will often pick up on the cryptic advice, and the rest of the crowd doesn't seem to notice. If it comes to killings, the surviving Thing can cite honest suspicion later on. But yer not foolin' this old sea dog Mac. Even if Rikae be innocent, ye could be just castin' suspicion on her to keep us all occupied. What do ye have to say fer yerself, ya scurvy dog?

'Course, if Mac ain't the monster, Lommy catches me eye (the one without the patch be me only one, I'm afraid). Votes for Rikae, yet doesn't find her very suspicious? Lass, ye be a Thing tryin' to cover yer tracks with that statement!

[Nogrod]

... to be continued

Jenny: I have really mixed feelings about. THere is a lot I suspect in Jenny.
In a way she seems like a most "thingish" one I could fathom here. Nicely countering the arguments and going with the general suspicions, just adding enough to look as an independent one. Also her interpretations on Lommy and Mac seem to be very different from mine (which does not mean that I think Lommy or Mac to be innocents... I will have to look at them after these) and too easily come up with. I mean, the difference between a wolf and an innocent lies there where an innocent tries to find the culprits and when s/he is unsure about it, s/he takes back her/his words and leaves the situation in a baffled state, but the villain will be most happy to just go after someone, whoever is suspected.

Then this really caught my eye:

Rikae, dear, you really don't need to panic.

I'm not sure, or even ready to believe, that a thing would be this forward to her mate, but a thing might wish to "buy" some trust with this kind of a trick?

Lastly, on the thing I was mistaken, her point seemed firm enough:

Actually, I think a Thing dies as a result of a new one being made. If a new Thing is not made, the old one does not die.

She happened to be right, even though it was not said aloud in the rules (check the rules or my post #52). So how did she know it? The things must have thought of these rules beforehand and taken care to understand them correctly?

But she has been considerate and reasonable all the time too. Like a good innocent or a very good thing indeed...

So Jenny seems to be my top suspect this far. I must think about this as the one you have just checked looks the most suspicious by definition... And I have not looked with an evil eye to the postings of Volo, Rune, and the trio (Rikae, Lommy & Mac) yet.

Sorry. I'll post this and come to the others in a while. Nice to see you back Menel and making good points. You are easing my problems a bit here.

And Foley: No I'm not intending to say you should only look for my earlier posts. I'm trying to continue with these "analysis" to the end... as I have time to make them...

[JennyHallu]

Actually, Nogrod, I argued back and forth with Valier about the rules quite a bit before the game started, and I felt that she was very clear. Specifically, her use of the phrase "in turn" I felt clearly showed a relationship between the creation of a new Thing and the death of the old.

[Nogrod]

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Actually, Nogrod, I argued back and forth with Valier about the rules quite a bit before the game started, and I felt that she was very clear. Specifically, her use of the phrase "in turn" I felt clearly showed a relationship between the creation of a new Thing and the death of the old.

You may be right. I'm not trying to deny it. I was very busy the days before the game started and have not followed all of the discussion in the TIGJ-thread. I will have to check that too.

And as I said, I have my hardest ones to check still... So being on the lead of my suspicions right now might both be false (as I might see you are genuine with you knowledge about the rules, f.ex.) and too early as I might find better candidates still...

Let's see. I wish to form my conclusions with any evidence I may find. As those of you who have played with my forefathers know: I hate random voting and will wish to have a reason for my vote. I still have a couple of hours before I have to go to sleep, so there is time...

[Volo]

"Back for a little time. But only little time. I did have time to read all the stuff, but I confess that I'm no good at this and don't make much sense. I know my playing-style isn't great and that it's just like my father's who was cursed in an other village not so long ago, but that's what we are.

I have already voted, my mistake because of other stuff happening in my life. I'm not a person who would like to stay out of discussion and too often jump into discussions that don't concern me. It is true that I rarelly make sense when I say something, but rarelly isn't always. Now this all defending myself might sound suspicious as I don't seem to be in any great danger of being lynched anyway.

Well, now to something that should make sense. The problem is that I can't find much stuff like that, sure I could just quote something and say how thingy that would be, but...

Originally Posted by Rikae, to Lommy #33

No hard feelings, though. If I were you, and had to vote early, I would have voted for me also, or Mac, simply for being vocal.I couldn't see you voting for Mac, since in spite of your disagreements, neither of you seems to suspect the other.

You still haven't answered why Lommy should vote you instead of Mac. Why would you have voted yourself? Do continue...

An other person who I would like to point out is Nogrod, I find his style changed again, this time he isn't attacking straight. Maybe it's too early. He has also said some stuff that isn't really necessary. (#41 and #46 don't tell us anything new. The ranger talk sounds strange.) Also he and Jack/Folwren seem to support each other, well, Jack does seem rather innocent.

Nogrod's summary so far seems too simple, somewhat like my father's summary last game, but that would make him innocent-like... I'm suprised that nobody else has even mentioned him so far...

Ok, I go to sleep. Now or really soon."

[Meneltarmacil]

As for JennyHallu, she really don't seem to be contributing much. After the first two posts or so, she only mentions the rules of the game. I find hat a bit strange. She's generally tryin' to look helpful, but she be contributing too little here...

Anyhow, I be most likely to vote fer Thinlomien or possibly Macalaure at this point.

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Meneltarmacil

I've heard tales of stuff like this happening, and it looks bad. One Thing tries to preserve the life of another one by stating what's wrong with his/her post. The other Thing will often pick up on the cryptic advice, and the rest of the crowd doesn't seem to notice. If it comes to killings, the surviving Thing can cite honest suspicion later on. But yer not foolin' this old sea dog Mac. Even if Rikae be innocent, ye could be just castin' suspicion on her to keep us all occupied. What do ye have to say fer yerself, ya scurvy dog?

Just this: you're on the wrong track. I repeat my defense again. What Rikae said would have made me suspicious if it wasn't her first game. The reason I went into so much detail was to spark discussion.

'Course, if Mac ain't the monster, Lommy catches me eye (the one without the patch be me only one, I'm afraid).

This one sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it? A similar statement made my innocent grandfather lynch your guilty grandfather.

Originally Posted by Volo, on Nogrod

I'm suprised that nobody else has even mentioned him so far...

I'm waiting for his thoughts to be complete - impatiently so, if I may add.

[Nogrod]

... and still continuing.

Volo: Now here's a tough one! Very hard to get a reading. My family has played with his family twice. On the first time my grandpa' was a lycantrophe and would have liked to make a billion cases against him but as he was a major asset for my grandpa' he left him be and was finally "betrayed" by him and died to the benefit of the village... Last time my father found a hint clear enough to go for lynching his father and that one actually was a wolf. But as I believe people get smarter by every generation, I'm not sure if this one of the line of his family is as easy to pick up as his father was.

He goes after Mac in his first post (#23):

May I ask how did you manage to cross-post with Lommy? It does seem somewhat thingy to say so much so early, like we have seen before . But then again, he didn't actually say much thingy stuff, seems pretty honest to me, even if too much.

without actually saying anything. But excusing his own possible early vote.

On #29 he still keeps going after Mac with not the best of reasons:

"Hmm... I don't really agree with you. They can be really misleading. But I hope you don't suggest being one yourself yet? Anyway I somehow don't like the tone of your talk."

"Wasn't that already said?"

Also his vote was somewhat dubious, or what do you say:

Ok, this might be nearly as random as Gil's vote, but here it goes.
++Macalaure, too much explaining talk. Just like Boromir last game. I hope I don't make a big mistake here as Mac really is a usefull guy if innocent.

So just giving the air of making a "random" vote, but still he had already coherently suspected Mac with his earlier posts, as you can see. It should be noted that he defended Lommy consistently too.

All this might be looked as thingy behaviour or just a still newcomer trying to find a style of play... Not good, I say, but not the most suspicious either, or then is. I must see the rest before making any judgements about people...

PS. Volo: you have one retraction possibility! So your vote is not final! Think about it!

[Nogrod]

... and to be continued.

Kitanna: I find her most reasonable indeed. Her points on #40 on Rikae and other stuff seem well balanced and well made. A good Thing would like to act in that way, but there seems to be an air of straight-forwardness in Kitanna's posting. I'm not going after her toDay by any means.

Rune: Now this is another puzzle to solve...

In his first post (#17) he staunchly defends Rikae and suspects Mac somewhat. Then he goes to that "I'm the weawer" -stuff... What to think of it? A bad joke or a very fishy Thing?

In #38 he says:

I think I will direct my attention to Jenny, Volo, Mac and Lommy today.

but after that he does nothing in line with this promise. His last posts after that one are one that discusses the overall strategy and the second one just states that he will be away!

A Thing might do that: looking helpful and considered but then somehow failing to do anything... I know it's early on the Day and he will be one or two hours behind me in the time zones and thence it is possible he will make his words come true, but by now, it doesn't look releasing on him...

[Volo]

Now I'm most certain you're a thing! Now look at you, you changed your strategy completely after my post.

By his grandfather he means that my grandfather caught the last wolf and by that saved his village. So like Nogrod says himself, even in that village he had many points against me, but still he's grandfather was the wolf and my grandfather was a ranger.
Sorry to say so complicatedly, I mean he had many cases against me even when I was a ranger and he a wolf.

I might also say that Nogrod takes only the suspicious things I said into account, not the stuff I have said that might clear it...

I voted Mac, because I didn't remember about the retracable vote (thanks Nog) and thought that I couldn't post later, I was wrong. The things Nogrod quoted about me can be explained in my other talk.
It was a rather random vote, but the best I came up with, you yourself caught Boromir's father for such reasons.
And about Lommy, I don't recall defending her...

(I'm just a newcomer trying to learn to play, I'm not even so far as the style.)

I think I have enough reason to change my vote:

--Macalaure

++Nogrod

And before you accuse me again, wrongly, I'm off!

EDIT: cross posted with Noggie's last post

[Meneltarmacil]

This one sounds strangely familiar, doesn't it? A similar statement made my innocent grandfather lynch your guilty grandfather.

Shiver me timbers!

Wrong scenario, matey. Me bloodthirsty and quite hairy grandfather claimed that "If one is innocent, then the other must be guilty," I be doing no such things. I suspect both you and Lommy the same; you may even be co-conspirators, though I doubt I could be right on both counts. Also, I posted reasons for suspecting both of ye, not simply that one of ye suspects the other. Ye both look suspicious; that be all I was tryin' to say.

[Nogrod]

Thank's Volo. It's always nice to be "rewarded" when you notify others that they may change their votes...

But anyhow, I'm still trying to finish my task of looking this final trio. It's getting late here but I will do my best. I know I can't die toNight. And I also know, that I can't participate toMorrow (OOC: as I will be in a hospital with a minor surgery). So I try to do my best toDay.

Let's see if that leads to anything or not...

EDIT: X-d with Menel - good point...

[JennyHallu]

I too am finding my suspicions leaning quite sturdily Nogrod-ward. What do you mean, I'm suspect because I was right about the rules?


I have one major problem with the idea that Nogrod might be a Thing: His ancestors are usually canny wolves.

As for Rune, he said quite clearly he would be back, and is often in the village at times much closer to the deadline. I hardly see being away a reason to lynch someone.

[JennyHallu]

Why did Noggie feel it so necessary to tell Volo he could change his vote, anyway?

[Folwren]

Originally Posted by Jenny

Why did Noggie feel it so necessary to tell Volo he could change his vote, anyway?

I think it was because he thought Mac was an innocent and wanted Volo to change his mind and try voting for a guilty thing. . .I don't think he suspected that change of mind.

-- Jack

[Macalaure]

Right now, I have to say that I agree with Menel's points on Jenny. Few substance there is.

Am I really the only one who is suspicious of Kitanna? Hmmm...

Volo has been very weird, but weird in an innocent way. I think you've told everybody that you consider yourself to be new at this often enough now.

I somehow doubt Rune will be around at the deadline. Like for me, it's 6 am for him.

Originally Posted by Folwren

I think it was because he thought Mac was an innocent and wanted Volo to change his mind and try voting for a guilty thing. . .I don't think he suspected that change of mind.

Not necessarily. If innocent, he might just have wanted to remind him of the possibility. If guilty, he might have wanted to look helpful to him. Didn't work in that case.

[Nogrod]

What do you mean, I'm suspect because I was right about the rules?

Well I was not saying exactly that. I don't think it is a general excuse but at least to me it was news that the Ranger would not diminish the number of the Things. As you sounded confident enough, I thought that you knew it better - and the thingies would surely have secured that information in time while we others would have paid no attention to it. At least I didn't, and I admit, that is my fault. And as I said, I would like to check that from the TIGJ-thread before I go with any final verdicts. I haven't have time to do that yet. I would like to end this query on everybody before I do that.

But why do you jump so readily to defend yourself (well, I might be seen as doing exactly the same thing here?). I said it most clearly that you top my suspicions so far, when the most dubious ones I have not have yet time to see to... I'm doing this, one by one now. Sorry, but it really takes time.

As for Rune, he said quite clearly he would be back, and is often in the village at times much closer to the deadline. I hardly see being away a reason to lynch someone.

See what I said about him:

Originally Posted by Noggie

I know it's early on the Day and he will be one or two hours behind me in the time zones and thence it is possible he will make his words come true, but by now, it doesn't look releasing on him...

So no proposal of lynching him there. I indeed think we have many better candidates - including you on the basis of your last posts - to pick from. Sorry Jenny. I had thought of letting you go far down on my list of suspicion, but these last posts have changed the situation somewhat. Your immediate jump alongside Volo looks strange indeed. Like a Thiong had been waiting for a suitable occasion...

And really:

Why did Noggie feel it so necessary to tell Volo he could change his vote, anyway?

Be Volo a friend or a fiend he should enjoy the right understanding of the rules. He was complaining about his vote and I told him he could vote again as we have one retractable. That was no necessity. But what happened after that will speak it's language to me at least, making you and in some way also Volo climb higher on my suspicion-list... Why should a Thing encourage another (or an innocent) to reconsider his vote if the thing was clear with the vote himself on Day1?

But still, I have the hardest trio to look for and am not sure whether my suspicions so far are good enough to beat the ones that are coming. We'll see about it.

X-d with Foley and Mac

[Rikae]

OK, I''ve read through the day's posts, and there are a couple of things I'd like to respond to.

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Rikae's first vote makes me feel very uneasy. Her constant return to the fact "I'll probably be lynched" and "My death will prove my innocence" is unnerving. Also I'm a bit suspcious of the comparsions of other games, when comparing this villages to other villages could have no real bearing in the end.

My goodness. First of all, I haven't voted yet! I take it you're uneasy about what my vote will be?
As far as comparisons with other games go, if we couldn't learn from past games, a rookie would be on equal footing with an experienced WW player, no?

Originally Posted by Kitanna

Her points in the first post state the obvious and though she hasn't taken all sides into consideration I think she is thinking logically. I was extremely worried about her after reading her first posts, but my susipicions have lessened a bit after reading further.

I take it logical thinking makes you uneasy? I'd have to disagree with you there - I find illogical posts far more unsettling.
Mac still seems to be simultaneously trying to draw attention to me and to paint himself as my supporter, and I find it strange, to say the least.
Folwren, on the other hand, seems sincere, and
Nogrod, who as I post has not yet given his opinion of me, has been fairly straightforward and logical.
Volo seems nervous, but maybe that's just his style.

Originally Posted by Volo

You still haven't answered why Lommy should vote you instead of Mac. Why would you have voted yourself? Do continue...

I didn't answer because I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Lommy did vote for me, not Mac - as far as why, I assume it's because I was "on the map" and there was nothing to prevent her voting for me. If I had to vote early, I would have voted for someone who had been vocal and quick to put forth theories, and that describes Lommy, Mac and myself. I didn't expect Lommy to vote for Mac because they give the appearance of having something between them that prevents them from suspecting each other - as I said before.
Mene appears to be suspicious of Jenny, Mac, Lommy and myself, and since I suspect the other 3 and know I'm innocent, I'm inclined to believe Mene is also innocent...but we shall see. It's too early to have any real suspects, and I, for one, am most uneasy about those who are quickest to accuse.

EDIT: X posted with Nog, Mac, Fol, Jenny, Mene and Volo

[Macalaure]

Originally Posted by Rikae

Mac still seems to be simultaneously trying to draw attention to me and to paint himself as my supporter, and I find it strange, to say the least.

Rikae, please, tell me, how can I defend myself from drawing attention towards you without drawing attention to you while I do so? It's not possible!

I didn't expect Lommy to vote for Mac because they give the appearance of having something between them that prevents them from suspecting each other - as I said before.

Read through the posts again. I do suspect Lommy. Right now, it's not even unlikely I end up voting for her.

[Rikae]

Are you referring to this post?

Originally Posted by Mac

Do I have to worry about you, Lommy?

because, sorry if I'm wrong, but this just doesn't sound like genuine suspicion to me (especially with the wink!). Still, she looks more suspicious to me than you do at this point, and I also have my doubts about Jenny, who seems to be trying to stay out of the fray while looking helpful, and Volo; the way the two of them suddenly turned on Noggie in unison had a somewhat thingish appearance.

[Macalaure]

No, it's this:

Originally Posted by me

First off, I agree with what Folwren states about Lommy. I'm quite uneasy about her, for the same reasons.

I know what you will say, that these were not my own thoughts and it's easy to just agree. You would be right about that. But Folwren, whom I feel very innocent at the moment by the way, exactly said what I thought and I didn't feel like repeating.

[Glirdan]

Ahhh! These time zone differences. I must vote now and I shall say that it is completely and utterly random. I do not have time to go over all the posts because I just got home and I have major homework tonight.

So, here it goes. Taking the name of the person closest to the top of the alphabet and voting. It shall be

++Briseis

As I said, completely random. Now must leave. Good luck everyone.

[Folwren]

I am about to leave for about four hours. I will be back a couple hours before day ends, I believe.

Valier posted the opening post at 11:45 P.M. EST. 10:45 P.M. GMT time, and I think that it was 8:45 on the Western Coast of the U.S. Day ends exactly 24 hours later, correct?

Either way, I should be back in time to check the posts that come between now and then and vote accordingly.

As of now, my main suspect is Lommy.

-- Jack

[Nogrod]

Okay, The final ones...

Rikae: Her first post seems dubious enough. It looks like it is a newcomer wishing to make an impression or a very cunning Thing clothing herself as a witty newbie. I understand the suspicions that post has raised. I can't agree with all the wisdom she poured over us there and indeed disagree with a couple of points she made there. But that shouldn't be the problem here. We have different histories and Rikae's points looked like ones coming from someone who has more read than actually participated in these games.

Then Lommy started suspecting her manner of presenting her points. At this point I have to agree with Lommy - and later Mac. The way Rikae made her points as obvious were far from it (as the later discussion showed they weren't).

I can't see why many of you were suspicious of Mac's post #12. He was making a lot of sense there, correcting the simplified points made by Rikae.

Then there is the usual banter between people on the first Day. Between Lommy and Mac I see it as quite innocent, both trying to make a point with not much to go with as so few had posted by then.

Many of you have said that Mac has attacked Rikae and carefully been defending his own not to be definitive in his accusations - so playing it safely. I agree. He has done some suspicious things as suspecting her and then relieving her at the same time.

With Rikae's post #24 I'm really baffled. I think I would like to think her as an innocent trying her best but there still is something that bothers me. Many of her deductions run contrary to what I deduct from the points in question. But mostly they seem sincere enough. But if I take account of her later posts - with actually some substance to relate to - she seems to be more reasonable by every post...

Lommy's arguments before she voted were good enough but there was an air of unsincerity. (This is feeling based) Her vote on Rikae looks bad compared with her statements that she really was downgrading her suspicion on her all the time... I know she had to part early (she has no net-connection at home), but still it was not the most convincing vote I've seen.

All the things going on between Lommy and Mac are also worthwhile to notice. As Rikae said:

Mac - I have some slight suspicion because of the information he gave to contradict my original points, which didn't seem particularly accurate and seemed designed to generate suspicion toward me rather than to shed light on the situation, at such an early point in the game that he could not have known my status unless he was a thing or the seer, and I doubt the seer would choose to dream about a rookie (of course,I know if he was the Seer he wouldn't be casting doubt on me, but you don't know that!). It is, however, entirely possible he was only offering the other perspective to make us aware of all possibilities. I'm reserving judgement for now. Still, his seeming mock-suspicion toward Lommy also raised warning signals for me.
Lommy - Argued with Mac, but never suspected him, and voted for me while claiming she thought I was innocent. On the one hand, this resembles the "innocent voting randomly without intending to actually lynch that person" scenario I had previously described - on the other hand, doing what has just been described as innocent behavior is rather thingish in itself. I also have a gut feeling that she and Mac have some sort of understanding, and that is, of course, suspicious.

The inter-connection of Lommy and Mac looks suspicious. I agree with it. But is Rikae here the neutral or innocent observer either? This drives me crazy!

After these things, Mac has been making more sense and sounding more true. It could be that the very starting debate was there because there was nothing else to discuss and only a few people were around to write anything? And same holds for Rikae. She too has gotten much more reasonable as the Day has passed on. So are we indeed suspecting them solely on the grounds that they were online early and had nothing else to go for but the posts of each other of them? If so, the real Things will be laughing quietly in their dark corners...

So do these things tell us anything? Not likely... But I would still like to remind you of my first post: many times it is the innocents who go after one another and ensure the lynching of an innocent by that... They might all three be innocents. Careful Things would avoid that kind of publicity!

I will have to take another look to these before I go.

And surely I have some earlier suspicions in my mind, mostly on Jenny, but we'll see to it.

(OOC: I will vote soon and go to sleep but as I'm a bit worried about my operation I might not get to sleep so easily and thence might come back with a new vote if the situation has changed markedly)