Inbreeding... and a little incest

[Lindale]

I have noticed that some of the Elves are inbreds... look at Celebrian, whose mother Galadriel is a descendant of Olwe, and whose husband Celeborn is akin to Elwe, Olwe's brother. Another example, Aragorn and Arwen. They are both descended from Earendil, their (fore)fathers being Elros and Elrond.

Now in biology I read that inbreeding in some species actually retains the nice traits of whatever you're breeding (example, you want only pink bougainvillea, don't let it cross-pollinate with other colors). But inbreeding also makes the risk of genetic diseases greater--this is very evident in breeding animals.

So why don't the Elves get a little wacko with all their inbreeding? And Eldarion too?

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Lindale

So why don't the Elves get a little wacko with all their inbreeding? And Eldarion too?

To focus merely upon Eldarion for the moment... I wouldn't worry about him. Aragorn was so many generations (around 60) removed from Elros that his percentage of shared ancestry with Arwen, taken as a percentage of his overall ancestry, can't have been at all worrisome...

And, while a certain amount of inbreeding certainly exists (especially among the descendents of Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, who were brethren), I don't think there's any examples of marriages between first cousins or of those of equal or closer degree... which is the human norm for acceptable.

[Selmo]

I cannot speak for Elves (I'm a hobbit and, therefore, human) but among humans breeding btween brother and sister carries with it the strong possibility of genetic problems, which is why it is discouraged in most societies.
Marriage between first cousins carries a much smaller risk. Most such couples would not have problems unless such marriages had occured within the same family for several generations.

If we assume that Elves were created with a perfect set of genes in the begining, then for Elves born in the First Age or earlier there should be no problems at all. It would take more than a few generations for genetic drift or mutation to have an effect.

Formendacil calls Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, brothers. Were they true brothers, in the sense that they were born of the same parents? Or were they amongst the first Elves, created not born? In that case, they may not share the same genes but be called brothers through alliance and affection.
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[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Selmo

Formendacil calls Elwë, Olwë, and Elmo, brothers. Were they true brothers, in the sense that they were born of the same parents? Or were they amongst the first Elves, created not born? In that case, they may not share the same genes but be called brothers through alliance and affection.
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They are true brothers. Tolkien never once directly states that they were among the first Elves born, while he definitely states that they were brothers (Elmo is specifically said to the younger brother, among other things, a fact that is not likely if they awoke). Furthermore, the shared silver hair of Elwë, Olwë's daughter Eärwen, Elmo's grandson Celeborn (and possibly some others unknown), which is only found among these Elves- and their said-to-be kinsman, Círdan.

[Raynor]

Tolkien never once directly states that they were among the first Elves born, while he definitely states that they were brothers

Moreover, Thingol did not have a wife from the start. According to the Cuivienyarna, the legend of the awakening of the elves, Quendi and Eldar, HoME XI, each first elf had beside his/her "destined spouse".

[Elonve]

In some cultures inbreeding and incest isn't thought of as bad.

Look at Cleopatra and her brother Ptolemy. They married.

Look at the British Royal family. They seem to be normal.
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[Selmo]

While it's true that members of the British Royal Family have usually bred with distant cousins from what might be called the European Royal Family, they have, from time to time, introduced sufficient fresh blood-lines to avoid the consequences of too-close in-breeding.

Recent examples of carefully selected fresh genes have been provided by Elizabeth Bows-Lyons, the present Queen's mother, who's conections to the Royal Family were very distant, and Diana Spenser, the Queen's daughter-in-law, who's conections were even more remote.
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[alatar]

Another danger of inbreeding, besides birth defects, is homogeny. After time, all of the genetic information is equality distributed, meaning that everybody is genetically just like everyone else. Inbreeding makes the population susceptible to disease, as no individual is much different that any other, and so everybody's either resistant or not . One of the benefits of genetic diversity is that when things change, like the environment, or a disease shows up, you might have a percentage of the population that is more suited and might survive to fight another day.

But maybe this explains the elves, as they seem to resist change, and when the environment is not to their liking, they fade away into the West, unlike Men and Ents, who are more adaptable.

[Raynor]

Originally Posted by alatar

But maybe this explains the elves, as they seem to resist change, and when the environment is not to their liking, they fade away into the West, unlike Men and Ents, who are more adaptable.

I think quite the contrary is true; the elves are more adapted to 'living' than all other incarnates, given that their doom is to abide (in incarnate form, desireably) till the end of Ea.

Originally Posted by Of Aman and mortal Men, Myths Transformed

The nature of an Elvish fea was to endure the world to the end, and an Elvish hroa was also longeval by nature

True enough, there is fading, due to the marring of Melkor (same source):

For they hold that the failure of their hroar to endure in vitality unwearied as long as their fear - a process which was not observed until the later ages - is due to the Marring of Arda, and comes of the Shadow, and of the taint of Melkor that touches all the matter (or hroa) of Arda, if not indeed of all Ea

and due to the consumation of hroa by fea:

Originally Posted by Aelfwine's preamble, Laws and customs of the Eldar, Later Quenta Silmarillion, HoME XI

Moreover their body and spirit are not separated but coherent. As the weight of the years, with all their changes of desire and thought, gathers upon the spirit of the Eldar, so do the impulses and moods of their bodies change. This the Eldar mean when they speak of their spirits consuming them; and they say that ere Arda ends all the Eldalie on earth will have become as spirits invisible to mortal eyes, unless they will to be seen by some among Men into whose minds they may enter directly

Among other reasons of the fading, we can count the doom of Men to rule Arda and the curse of the noldor:

Originally Posted by Of the flight of the Noldor, Silmarillion

And those that endure in Middle-earth and come not to Mandos shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden, and shall wane, and become as shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after. The Valar have spoken

(however, I think we can discount this at least in part, given that it is stated that curse was laid to rest after the war of wrath)

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I think quite the contrary is true; the elves are more adapted to 'living' than all other incarnates, given that their doom is to abide (in incarnate form, desireably) till the end of Ea.

This is the text to which I refer, and maybe I'm just not reading it right:

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

For Ents are more like Elves: less interested in themselves than Men are, and better at getting inside other things. And yet again Ents are more like Men, more changeable than Elves are, and quicker at taking the colour of the outside, you might say. Or better than both: for they are steadier and keep their minds on things longer

Now, those are Treebeard's words to Merry and Pippin, and so suspect, as Treebeard may not have an objective point of view. But it would seem that he and I agree, as I too see the Elves trying to embalm parts of Middle Earth, and when finally time catches up with that place (i.e. the fading of Lorien), the elves do not adapt, but move on.

[Raynor]

more changeable than Elves are

I would say this is open to interpretation; the worries of the elves are less mundane.

Originally Posted by Letter #131

Their 'magic' is Art, delivered from many of its human limitations: more effortless, more quick, more complete (product, and vision in unflawed correspondence). And its object is Art not Power, sub-creation not domination and tyrannous re-forming of Creation. The 'Elves' are 'immortal', at least as far as this world goes: and hence are concerned rather with the griefs and burdens of deathlessness in time and change, than with death.

I think that the elves delighted in change, being masters of Art and given their highly creative nature:

Originally Posted by Dangweth Pengolodh, HoME XII

But to the changefulness of Ea, to weariness of the unchanged, to the renewing of the union [of though and sound]: to these three, which are one, the Eldar also are subject in their degree. In this, however, they differ from Men, that they are ever more aware of the words that they speak. As a silversmith may remain more aware than others of the tools and vessels that he uses daily at his table, or a weaver of the texture of his garments. Yet this makes rather for change among the Eldar than for steadfastness; for the Eldar being skilled and eager in art will readily make things new, both for delight to look on, or to hear, or to feel, or for daily use: be it in vessels or raiment or in speech.

[yavanna II]

Originally Posted by Raynor

I think that the elves delighted in change, being masters of Art and given their highly creative nature:

How about the little speech of Galadriel in the second book of FotR (can't quote, don't have a book) that they would slowly forget and be forgotten and dwell in the past? Wouldn't that be considered a little nostalgic for the Elves of Lorien and the other Eldar in ME, and not induce change at all?

[Elu Ancalime]

Also hobbits, seem to like to marry within their family, but they must share more of the same names than actual blood. And besides brother-sister, what about a la Oedipus the King? In that play, his children (coming from him and his mother) did not have birth defecs, they were only looked on as 'monsters' in a symbolic sense.

And I recall that not only Cleopatra and Ptolemey, but the entire line of Egyptian rulers bred within their immediate family, which kep their bloodline "pure."
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[alatar]

Somehow this thread got me to thinking about the Dwarves, and the Fathers thereof. One gets the impression that Iluvatar made a bunch of the Firstborn and Secondborn. When each arrives on the scene, there seems to be more than just a few individuals.

How so with the dwarves? How many did Aule fashion? If the number were few, then some inbreeding would have to have taken place.

[Annatar!]

Just finished reading The Silmarillion (again) and can recall a sentence which stated that the Eldar had no great love of marrying their immediate kin i.e 1st cousins. The statement is in reference to Maeglin's love for his first cousin Idril Celebrindal, can't remeber what chapter though.
The Elven culture it seems also has scruples associated with this topic. This makes me wonder whether this developed from the Ainur, in much the same way 'morals' are taught and practiced in our human society as a result of religion and government (Eru don't like therefore we don't like)?
Or perhaps a notion of integrity, something they developed as a culture themselves, before the Valar found and summoned them, and whether this notion came about from a desire to maintain the fairness of their race.
I somehow get the feeling that, even if they bred with their immediate kin, it would probably have no real effect. A race free from sickness and pestilence may not have the genetic throwbacks that occur in mortal races, as a result of the inability of our bodies to 'deal' with the 'overlapping' of DNA, perhaps they simply just don't want to do it.

As a side thought maybe that's the difference between the Avari and the Eldar. The Avari were unwilling because they thought in Aman they'd be frowned on for wanting to get it on with mummy!!!

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Alatar, I believe The Silmarillion says that Aule made seven dwarves. In one of Tolkien's letters, he says that there were thirteen originally, seven males each with his mate, "save Durin the eldest who had none." This latter account seems far more likely to me, since if there were only seven to begin with, they would have to be of mixed gender, and it's difficult to see how the Seven Houses of the Dwarves could have arisen from that.

[alatar]

Maybe the seven Dwarves were met by a lady by the name of Snow White...(must get Disney out of brain) ?

Even if there were 14, that still begs the question about, well, how it all got started as in the second generation everyone's marrying 'cousins,' and in each generation after that the families become even closer and mingled. Still, it might be possible, though 12-14 individuals might be a nonviable population, however long-lived.

[Anguirel]

Actually, I've heard (speaking as no kind of scientist) that eventually a lot of incest cancels out and pretty much stabilises. Hence Cleopatra not being a drooling idiot after ten generations of inbreeding sister-marrying Ptolemies.

Ptolemies=Dwarves? Do we have an allegory here, ladies and gentlemen?

[Lalwendë]

I've been reading a fair amount about the Amish this week (following the horrible events in Pennsylvania) and I noticed that there is apparently a very high incidence of genetic illness due to the small original gene pool and inbreeding as a result (further exacerbated by not admitting 'outsiders' into the community via marriage). This doesn't result in people who have learning disabilites, more that they have physical disabilities including dwarfism (which Im sure is not the PC term so I apologise), 'short legs' in comparison to the body and polydactylism (extra fingers and toes).

Though of course Tolkien's Dwarves are a race and so very different.

Maybe Tolkien just didn't include the women in that original figure of seven?

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

Alatar, I believe The Silmarillion says that Aule made seven dwarves. In one of Tolkien's letters, he says that there were thirteen originally, seven males each with his mate, "save Durin the eldest who had none." This latter account seems far more likely to me, since if there were only seven to begin with, they would have to be of mixed gender, and it's difficult to see how the Seven Houses of the Dwarves could have arisen from that.

This stirs up memories of a theory I think I had once, a few years ago, about dangers of "inbreeding" and why it didn't wipe out certain societies over the years. (I may have formed this theory about some other piece of literature and the distant ancestors of the characters, but I'll just file off a few serial numbers, splash on a little paint, and call it an Arda-specific theory instead!)

What if the "original ancestors" of each species -- those 13 Dwarves, for instance -- were created to be "genetically perfect"? No nasty recessive genes that could pile up in the first few generations to create numerous children who had visible and handicapping physical defects, serious heart trouble, terrible eyesight, hemophilia, etc.? So if you had first cousins (or second, or third cousins) marrying back and forth in the early days, it wouldn't cause much trouble until nasty mutations started to creep in. Either by accident in the natural course of events, or else because of the well-known corrupting influence of the Shadow. (Or some of each?)

As near as I can recall, some of Tolkien's writings suggested Orcs and Trolls were basically bred from the original Elf and Men stock by Morgoth, using prisoners he'd captured and then tinkered with somehow at his leisure, way back in the day. Obviously he was able to make some drastic changes along the way to make sure future generations "bred true" with their new forms and characteristics. I've read claims that other notes Tolkien made at different times suggest that he also played around with the idea that those critters weren't long-lost "cousins" of Elves and Men, but merely second-rate imitations somehow created by Morgoth from scratch to make better servants. Either way, they were obviously living creatures that could reproduce themselves, and if Morgoth were to achieve such a thing in the modern world we'd say he had considerable ability in "genetic engineering" (although he probably didn't call it that and may not have known a thing about the structure of tiny little DNA molecules. Maybe he just knew how to really exert his willpower to get roughly the results he wanted? Mind over matter?)

If we grant Morgoth the "genetic engineering" capability, why not assume that nasty genes that eventually crept into the gene pools of one species or another were the result of his evil influence? Whether his magic had an effect similar to powerful radiation, or whether he was putting nasty mutagenic substances into water supplies (rivers, lakes, etc.), or whether he released a few retroviruses or some such thing out into the world . . . anything that would gradually cause visible defects (and sometimes defects not visible to the naked eye) to weaken the future generations of Men, Elves, Dwarves? Particularly if they inbred over time? Frequently marrying cousins back and forth within a rural community over a span of centuries, for instance?

That would explain why the Dwarves, for instance, didn't run into serious trouble in the first several generations when they were all descended from the same six married couples or however it worked. (Six married couples plus Durin? Did Durin later marry someone else's daughter?) The mutations triggered by Morgoth hadn't had much time to sink into their gene pool yet. By the time you had a nasty recessive gene lurking in one House or another, marrying a member of another House would probably keep it lurking recessively, unknown and unworried about, for a few generations longer until at long last it was potentially "reunited" with a copy of itself in a new marriage and then the two would have one chance in four of being able to pair together in a particular kid and make his life less happy than it otherwise would have been?