Waste systems in Middle Earth???

I was wondering, did any of the kingdoms ever include bathrooms? And if they did, how did they get rid of it? I mean it doesn't make sense, where would dwarves do #1 and #2 in mines???

At the beggining of the hobbit, they did mention Bilbo having a bathroom at bag end but that's all that I've seen :\.

[Boromir88]

I don't know if Tolkien ever expands on the subject of waste, but I would imagine it would be most like the Middle-ages waste system. At least in Castles, bathrooms consisted of just stone rooms, and a slab seat with a big hole that would drop down into the sewer system. And typically it would be someone's job to go shovel it all out once in a while before the methane and stench got too bad. (Learned this out from the handy show..."Worst jobs in History.")

[MatthewM]

You know, I've always wondering the same thing, haha. I would assume in places like Gondor and Rohan it would be like Boromir88 said. For places like The Shire I'm not really sure, I would think maybe they had a community one, as gross as that may sound. I say that because I don't really think Hobbits had as much of a caste system as did Men, therefore maybe they didn't have somebody cleaning it. Maybe they went in the wild? Elves...who knows? Hey, would it be considered immortal waste? How about enchanted waste?

...ok, sorry.

[Rumil]

Ah, at last a thread that gets down to the nitty gritty, the real experience of Middle Earth living, no more shall Downers blithely cry 'I would love to move to Rivendell' without a caveat regarding Elrond's plumbing arrangements.

As Farrar rightly points out, little attention has been given by Tolkien or his commentators to such an important aspect of everyday Middle Earth life. Few mentions occur in the legendarium, and those are ambiguous or tangential, but it must be here that we begin our fundamental examination. We must also draw on the records of historically analagous civilizations for much of our investigation, but must be wary of pitfalls. Assumptions regarding flushing mechanisms, ballcocks and U-bends may land us in deep and dangerous water. Finally I would like to indulge in further speculation involving the origin of Gandalf's fireworks and the infamous blasting fires of Orthanc and highlight my admiration for Tolkien's 'unexplored vistas', which are as significant in this respect as in many others.

To begin, we have the canonical occurence of a 'bathroom' at Bag End, however, combined with historical usage and, of course, the bath incident at Crickhollow, doubt is cast upon the utility of such a term in our quest. It is Crickhollow that provides the clue, who indeed can forget the cry of

Sing Hey! for a bath at the end of the day

which immediately brings visions of the three baths and the room swimming with 'water hot' following Pippin's antics. This, we must conclude, is what is meant by 'bathroom' in Shire terms, merely a room containing one or more baths. To this day it is unusual for older houses in Britain to have a toilet in the same room as the bath, as such a practice was considered both unseemly and unhealthy in early Victorian times, at least until the great strides forward made by that giant of the porcelain facility, Thomas Crapper, whose name will undoubtedly resonate down the years.

Therefore we must look to history for information, lest our search bog down completely. The Shire was primarily a rural area, without the population density and concomitant pressures associated with city life. In many rural areas sanitation consisted of a hole in the ground, within an associated outhouse, often brick-built, located at some distance from the main dwelling. We know that hobbits, although preferring to live in holes or 'smials', were anciently accustomed to constructing free-standing sheds and workshops, so this seems the most likely solution for the Shire. There is a problem with the lack of convenience of this system at night, during inclement weather, or illness, and traditionally the gozunder, or po, was the answer to such difficulties.

It is with towns and cities that the stickier problem is faced. One can debate the relative technological sophistication of Minas Tirth or Edoras, so it becomes unclear exactly what sort of systems were in use. In the most unsophisticated towns of the past waste was simply dumped into the street and disposed of via street cleaners or open sewers. This was option much used in medieval and indeed renaissance times, especially in castles where the effluvium discharged into the moat from rooms equipped with garderobes, where the clothes of the nobility were kept such that the attendant ammoniacal vapour deterred moths. While such practices continued late into European history, witness, for example the lucky escape from the defenestration of Prague, it is, however, difficult to tally such practices with the conventional gleaming white image of Minas Tirith.

A better solution was the use of privies, as in the countryside, but with the addition of a night-soil service, an unfortunate person paid to clean and empty the privy or septic tank. Finally we have the running water option, toilets have been with us since at least 2500 BC, notably in the cities of ancient India, China, Egypt and Persia. These generally consisted of a seat of ease above a continually-flowing open water channel, and could even be communal as is shown by extant Roman military installations at Hadrian's Wall and many other locations. We may have a hint that Edoras reached this level of hygenic sophistication -

Beside the way in a stone channel a stream of clear water flowed, sparkling and chattering.

It could well have provided, via side channels, the necessary flow. In that case one would imagine that Minas Tirth had superior facilities, probably encompassing an entirely piped water supply, though it would be fruitless to speculate on the possible use of porcelain thrones, U-bends and the like.

The varied cultures of Middle Earth also must show different levels of toiletry sophistication. The Lakemen were uniquely situated above a suitable medium for diluting their effluvia. The dwarves could no doubt make use of long drops and crevasses should they need, but a clue is given in Gloin's desciption of the progress made at Erebor in the provision of underground canals, probably suitable for quite sophisticated arrangements. The dark side of toiletry behaviour also rears its ugly head, orcs often refer to their enemies, and each other, as 'filth'. Tolkien admitted to toning down orcish expletives, but the meaning permeates through nonetheless. Shelob is a case of the dreadful depths to which Sauron's servants and allies could fall. Her abode was noisome and reeking from the accumulated filth of her age-long occupation, clearly hygiene was not an issue for such a depraved creature.

Having surveyed the likely facilities, some further strand of enquiry suggests itself. Gunpowder was originally made form charcoal, sulphur and saltpetre, saltpetre of course being rich in the nitrates necessary to accelerate the explosion and being mostly derived from human and animal wastes. In the days of black powder the job of night soil man became profitable with supply of saltpetre to the armaments industry, truly a case of 'where there's muck there's brass'. Was this how Gandalf and Saruman found the ingredients for their rockets and blasting charges?

In the end, of course Tolkien teases our thirst for further detail but leaves the specifics vague. Middle Earth hygiene, like the Blue Wizards and Balrog wings must therefore belong to the realm of supposition and speculation. Who indeed can envisage the facilities of wondrous Gondolin or those employed by fair lady Galadriel? The author does, however, wonder if there is any further information in the Letters or indeed if there is any relevant Biblical applicabilty, even allegory, pertaining to this problem but leaves such undertakings, and the attendant problems of canonicity, to the pens of those more expert than he.

[Estelyn Telcontar]

As this topic is more speculative, even facetious, than a serious discussion of actual book themes, I'm moving it to the Novices and Newcomers forum. Please continue to read and post there. Thanks!

This topic needs to be handled with special care, otherwise the thread will be moved to the Mirth forum or closed and deleted if necessary. Please make sure your vocabulary is worthy of Tolkien!

[Lalwendë]

Farar Stonehewer - use your imagination (or perhaps not ) - how do you think miners in the real world used to address such problems? With a pickaxe and shovel and lots of good earth to dig in around you, well...there you go.

Originally Posted by Boromir88

"Worst jobs in History.")

Quite literally.

Facetiousness over.

At Hampton Court Palace there is a toilet (bathroom to US folks, we name the room by what's in it, which if it does have a bath in, like it would in most homes, is the bathroom, otherwise it's the WC or toilet or cloakroom (only in Knutsford though)). Back to the Hampton Court Palace Toilet, parentheses having got overly long, it has seats for a group of people to sit side by side. The presumption is that Henry VIII and his courtiers could sit side by side discussing matters of State while 'engaged'. The Romans also had facilities like this.

[Child of the 7th Age]

Interesting, Rumil. I've always envisioned Bilbo's bathroom as being a "real" bathroom with facilities for waste disposal as well as for bathing, even if there was perhaps a bathroom and a separate WC.

My reason for thinking this is that the Shire has such an Edwardian tone; Tolkien himself refers to the Shire being Edwardian in his Letters. There are so many Shire references in LotR (directly or as allusions) to trains and umbrellas and such (things that "shouldn't be there) that indoor plumbing does not seem beyond the realm of possibility. In fact, I can not imagine an upper middle class Edwardian household who would not have had an indoor water toilet, probably of the flush variety.

Flush toilets actually go back a good ways. The first flush toilet was made not by the Victorian Thomas Crapper as commonly thought but by Alexander Cummings in 1775. Some 6,000 toilets had already been installed in English homes by 1800. The device became widespread in the mid-19th centurywhen, after a dreadful cholera epidemic, London built a sewer system. Along with the sewer system came the spread of flush toilets. To the extent that I have thought about this (which admittedly isn't much), I have always envisioned Bilbo with one of the indoor WCs rather than plodding across the garden to his outhouse.

Of course, poorer hobbits would have been in a different situation. Sam would likely have frequented an outhouse. Outhouses really aren't that far in our past, and it's not so terrible to use them. My dad grew up in a rough and ready community in the wild reaches of the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. His family had an outhouse, and they were not poor. My granda worked as a supervisor in the mines. My dad remembered with glee playing a trick on a neighbor by moving their outhouse(the wooden structure) to another location in the yard in the middle of the night. Boy, did they get in trouble! I can imagine similar tricks for young hobbit lads.

I can also remember as a kid visiting a friend in the country and using their outhouse. If you're a farmer dealing with horse manure and soil and such, an outhouse isn't so out of place. It's only us modern, rarified city dwellers who get our noses bent out of joint!

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Rumil

In the end, of course Tolkien teases our thirst for further detail but leaves the specifics vague. Middle Earth hygiene, like the Blue Wizards and Balrog wings must therefore belong to the realm of supposition and speculation. Who indeed can envisage the facilities of wondrous Gondolin or those employed by fair lady Galadriel? The authour does, however, wonder if there is any further information in the Letters or indeed if there is any relevant Biblical applicabilty, even allegory, pertaining to this problem but leaves such undertakings, and the attendant problems of canonicity, to the pens of those more expert than he.

First, I must commend Rumil's familiarity with the distinguished lexicographer, Eric Partridge, whose Dictionary of Slang ranks with the OED as one of the great resources of the language--unless Rumil is himself a Cockney and familiar with the rhyming slang which produces khazi for privy. An association with Khazad which would make Tolkien proud I'm sure.

As to Lothlorien, one would suppose that the elves' great admiration for the mallorn trees would make it less likely they would be lumbered for their pulp and turned into any kind of paper, much less one of the humbled closet. Perhaps the bidet would be the convenience of choice in this fair land?

As happens so often in early literatures, domestic arrangements are passed over in silence in the Legendarium. In fact, we have very little information about, for example, how children are raised in Middle-earth. Would the different races, for example, have differing practices regarding training in the use of their facilities? At what age would such training commence? Humans typically debate the age at which such training should start ( ) but would the debate be even more pronounced with races who are longer lived and whose children might experience a longer toddlerdom than ours? When would potty training start with a race as long lived as elves? Or even with hobbits, who don't reach puberty until much later than the race of men. If dwarves typically live approximately 250 years, would this mean that dwarven children are not trained until 5 or 6 years old? Image the laundry--assuming that disposables would not be a choice in the environmentally-friendly times of the first three ages.

[Lalwendë]

There's a bit of irony there - when I first heard the term Petty Dwarves I laughed (and I admit it still raises a snigger) as the Petty is the toilet where I grew up.

And most British terraced houses still have outhouses. They also have indoor toilets nowadays but the outhouse remains as a handy 'extra' - or at least somewhere secure to store the Barbecue and garden chairs!

[Rumil]

Evenin All,

glad you all saw the funny side

Child, I agree with you completely that there is nothing at all wrong with the 'outhouse'. For me though (and I'd agree that this is a personal view), I can't see the Shire as being Edwardian as such, due to the necessity for an industrial revolution to provide many of the technological comforts of Edwardian times, which we can be fairly sure never happened in the Shire. The 'express train' I'd put down to mis-translation and there's nothing particularly technologically advanced about an umbrella. Therefore I'd go for a more 17th-18th cenury gentleman sort of situation.

Alas poor old Cummings, bit like Richard Trevithick who invented the steam train but is always forgotten in place of Stephenson. I think that Crapper, like Stephenson was the populariser of the technology.

Beth, I assure you, nothing more than a passing familiarity with the 'Carry On' film genre is required (Or Roger's Swearathaurus as long as you are not offended by anything, ever, no really!) The direct use of leaves is certainly possible, though one must avoid species with sharp-edged foliage, from personal experience

Lal, any idea if the Prof was familiar with this usage, could the Petty Dwarves have been the 'night soil men' of Belegost and Nogrod? Subsequently perhaps exiled for their 'unclean' occupation? By the way some scally just half inched me barbie from the coalshed as was, poetic justice probably!

Meanwhile another pertinent quote to consider -

Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor amongst the dogs?

I've thought that as this was Saruman's insult, it was likely to be untrue, though in a proper Dark Age milieu this would have likely been quite accurate.

[Lalwendë]

Dotard! What is the house of Eorl but a thatched barn where brigands drink in the reek, and their brats roll on the floor amongst the dogs?

No, that's my neighbour. He looks like a cross between Zach Dingle and Bob Carolgees and has all the manners of a Gorilla in a rage. Actually, that bit of invective from Saruman makes me think of something a Norman might have said about one of the saxon lords.

Anyway. I once got told by my dad that during the war when there was no toilet paper they used newspaper, but when there was none of that they had to use a rag and rinse it out in a bucket. I apologise if anyone is in another time zone and having thier tea.

And there are umbrellas in Jane Austen books so even if the Shire was set in the 18th century (if we can say such a thing) they wouldn't be out of place.

I did have high hopes at one time that as Tolkien had spent a lot of time in Lancashire at Stonyhurst he'd have come across the word Petty, but I think i was getting high hopes thinking that he'd hear that in the rarified atmosphere of the Ribble Valley college, which is frightfully posh.

[HerenIstarion]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

they had to use a rag and rinse it out in a bucket. I apologise if anyone is in another time zone and having thier tea.

In another time zone they would have used water from the bucket and saved themselves from rinsing rags in it.

And just in another time zone they would have used sand (found a plenty lying round), and saved the water from rinsing *** with it

There are lots of possibilities there, see. I suppose there must have been as much in ME.

[Morsul the Dark]

well I assume Gondor would use aquaducts and Rohan and the Shire would use similiar systems, I think Bag End, Wuld have a room emptied(probably) by Sam,

as for Dwarves Well they probably(of all races) would have indor plumbing consisting of tunnels leading out of the mountain

[Bêthberry]

The presence of outhouses leads to the question of available reading material. A standard in the nether regions of Canada was the popular Eatons Catalogue, which provided contemplation galore as well as a ready supply of cleansing material. It was said to be a bad winter if the catalogue did not last through the entire season.

Which of course raises other questions about the fate of copies of Herblore of The Shire, to say nothing of the RedBook of Westmarch.