The Souls Of Men - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Meela · 07-04-2003, 05:51 PM

The elves go to the Undying Lands, along with the occasional dwarf/human/whatever, it would seem.
What happens to the souls of men? Men die in Middle Earth, but do the people believe in any form of heaven? Or perhaps a pagan/other view that the souls rejoin the earth and become part of it? Or even reincarnation?

Yavanna228 · 07-04-2003, 07:12 PM

Basically, all we know is that the souls of men go 'beyond the circles of the world.' It doesn't seem that reincarnation was the case, as Iluvatar gave men a means to 'escape' by their mortality, and I don't think that reincarnation would be an escape. Tolkien left details of the beliefs of Man towards the afterlife vague, probably purposefully so. Perhaps he feared that he would spawn some sort of cult.
Sorry that I can't give you more of a conclusive answer. Maybe some of the 'heavyweights' can help you out more on this. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]
Peace

Meela · 07-04-2003, 07:13 PM

Thanks anyway! I appreciate the effort to help me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Alatariel Telemnar · 07-04-2003, 08:30 PM

Hmm, I'm pretty sure Tolkien was a christian...so maybe it's, as I believe, when men die they go to heaven, and instead of God it's Eru...

Eruwen · 07-05-2003, 08:34 AM

I'm not sure if they believe in a Heaven or not, but this is what it said in The Silm about their death...

Quote:

It is one with this gift of freedom that the children of Men dwell only a sport space in the world alive, and are not bound to it, and depart soon whither the Elves knew not.

For the Elves die not till the world dies, unless they are slain or waste in grief; neither does age subdue their strength, unless one grow weary of ten thousand centuries; and dying they are gathered to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, whence they may in time return.

But the sons of Men die indeed, and leave the world; wherefore they are called the Guests, or the Strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Ilúvatar, which as Time wears even the Powers shall envy.

That's all I see where it tells about Men's death. So unless Tolkien has written about it in one of his letters which I have not read yet {I'm on Unfinished Tales}, then that is all I can tell you about it.

Meela · 07-05-2003, 02:35 PM

Where are these letters of Tolkien's? Are they some form of collection, or are they a book based on his letters?

Eruwen · 07-06-2003, 07:37 AM

I saw them at Barnes and Nobles once, though, I couldn't get them at the time. What I saw was a 2-volume hardback edition of a collection of all his letters. It is simply called "Tolkien's Letters" Parts 1 and 2. It's not based on his letters, but is literally his letters to people. I'm trying to get them right now actually. I just need to find them again.

Legolas · 07-07-2003, 10:37 AM

The Letters of JRR Tolkien is a collection of 354 letters written from 1914 on put together by Christopher Tolkien and Humphrey Carpenter. A great number of them are to his children - quite a few to Michael, a couple to Priscilla, one to John, and a very large number to Christopher (because they're about the progress of The Lord of the Rings - JRR kept Christopher up to date as the story progressed) - publishing company executives, and readers with questions. There are others too, of course, including correspondence with WH Auden and CS Lewis, as well as some early letters to Edith Bratt (who he married later on).

It's fun to read the parts of the book Tolkien tells CT about as he writes it, and the letters to readers are very insightful.

[ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ]

Carrûn · 07-07-2003, 03:35 PM

I think that the whole uncertantity aspect makes Aragorn and Arwen's relationship more unique and interesting for that reason.

Neferchoirwen · 07-07-2003, 10:03 PM

...or even more tragic.

Aragorn, who is bound to leave the circles of the earth will not be reunited with Arwen until the end of all days, which is Eru knows when.

The irony in the fate of men is that they are certain of the number of their days, so to speak, and yet they do not know where exactly they go to when they die.

Legolas · 07-08-2003, 06:59 AM

You mean, before she made her choice? In being half-elven, she decided to be mortal and thus would leave Arda shortly after death just as Aragorn and all men did - they would be together forever, like Beren and Luthien.

Neferchoirwen · 07-08-2003, 09:26 AM

Oh yeah...I was refering to this:

Quote:

the whole uncertantity aspect makes Aragorn and Arwen's relationship more unique and interesting

But then I forgot that she became mortal.

07-04-2003, 05:51 PM	#1
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	The Souls Of Men The elves go to the Undying Lands, along with the occasional dwarf/human/whatever, it would seem. What happens to the souls of men? Men die in Middle Earth, but do the people believe in any form of heaven? Or perhaps a pagan/other view that the souls rejoin the earth and become part of it? Or even reincarnation? __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-04-2003, 07:12 PM	#2
Yavanna228 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2003 Location: on the wings of the morning Posts: 394	Basically, all we know is that the souls of men go 'beyond the circles of the world.' It doesn't seem that reincarnation was the case, as Iluvatar gave men a means to 'escape' by their mortality, and I don't think that reincarnation would be an escape. Tolkien left details of the beliefs of Man towards the afterlife vague, probably purposefully so. Perhaps he feared that he would spawn some sort of cult. Sorry that I can't give you more of a conclusive answer. Maybe some of the 'heavyweights' can help you out more on this. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Peace __________________ 'Dulaman na Binne Bui, Dulaman Gaelach/ Dulaman na farraige, 's e b'fhearr a bhi in Eirinn!'

07-04-2003, 07:13 PM	#3
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Thanks anyway! I appreciate the effort to help me [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-04-2003, 08:30 PM	#4
Alatariel Telemnar Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: watching the ants closing in Posts: 292	Hmm, I'm pretty sure Tolkien was a christian...so maybe it's, as I believe, when men die they go to heaven, and instead of God it's Eru... __________________ -Ever wonder whats beyond those trees? -More trees. 'Poor ye. Ye're tied to someone who's been photographed trying to shave their hand... My condolences.'

07-05-2003, 02:35 PM	#6
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Where are these letters of Tolkien's? Are they some form of collection, or are they a book based on his letters? __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

07-06-2003, 07:37 AM	#7
Eruwen Registered User Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 892	I saw them at Barnes and Nobles once, though, I couldn't get them at the time. What I saw was a 2-volume hardback edition of a collection of all his letters. It is simply called "Tolkien's Letters" Parts 1 and 2. It's not based on his letters, but is literally his letters to people. I'm trying to get them right now actually. I just need to find them again.

07-07-2003, 10:37 AM	#8
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	The Letters of JRR Tolkien is a collection of 354 letters written from 1914 on put together by Christopher Tolkien and Humphrey Carpenter. A great number of them are to his children - quite a few to Michael, a couple to Priscilla, one to John, and a very large number to Christopher (because they're about the progress of The Lord of the Rings - JRR kept Christopher up to date as the story progressed) - publishing company executives, and readers with questions. There are others too, of course, including correspondence with WH Auden and CS Lewis, as well as some early letters to Edith Bratt (who he married later on). It's fun to read the parts of the book Tolkien tells CT about as he writes it, and the letters to readers are very insightful. [ July 07, 2003: Message edited by: Legolas ] __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

07-07-2003, 03:35 PM	#9
Carrûn Wight Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Behind you, counting to 3 Posts: 234	I think that the whole uncertantity aspect makes Aragorn and Arwen's relationship more unique and interesting for that reason. __________________ "Dic, hospes, Spartae, nos te hic vidisse iacentes dum sanctis patriae legibus obsequimur."

07-07-2003, 10:03 PM	#10
Neferchoirwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: RtR: 483.3 miles, Fords of Bruinen Posts: 512	...or even more tragic. Aragorn, who is bound to leave the circles of the earth will not be reunited with Arwen until the end of all days, which is Eru knows when. The irony in the fate of men is that they are certain of the number of their days, so to speak, and yet they do not know where exactly they go to when they die. __________________ On really romantic nights of self, I go salsa dancing with my confusion. ~Speed Levitch http://crevicesofsilence.blogspot.com/

07-08-2003, 06:59 AM	#11
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	You mean, before she made her choice? In being half-elven, she decided to be mortal and thus would leave Arda shortly after death just as Aragorn and all men did - they would be together forever, like Beren and Luthien. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.