The Valar - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

11-06-2002, 09:35 PM

I've read the Silmarillion. In it, it is said that the Valar are higher powers who formed the world Iluvatar created, and entered Arda to become somewhat like guardians of the Children of Iluvatar. So, if it's supposed to be like that, it can be thought (at least in my POV) that the Valar should be all wise and make no mistakes.

However, they made many--summoning the Elves to Aman; trusting Melkor too easily (especially Manwe) etc.

The Children of Iluvatar (and Aule) did great deeds of valour. Like when Luthien dared to steal a Silmaril with Beren from Morgoth.

In that sense, isn't what is portrayed the idea that the Valar are not as powerful as they seem to be? And that if Elves and Men try hard enough, they can rise to the ranks of the Powers?

Well, this is just my opinion. I may be wrong, but anyone...?

Sky

Selmo · 11-07-2002, 03:08 AM

The last King of Numenor thought he could "rise to the ranks of the Powers".

He didn't quite make it.

11-07-2002, 05:21 AM

Hm...but maybe his intention was all wrong? That he lusted for power for his own.

What I meant was...doing great things; inner strength, that the Children of Iluvatar could then rise as high or almost to the ranks of the Powers.

Sky

Rimbaud · 11-07-2002, 09:41 AM

Tolkien's theology utilises concepts familiar to all human religions; those of omniscient watching powers and the under-explained impotence of those bodies to act. Still, at least Manwë sent some Eagles, from time to time. Tickle-me-Ulmo played a reasonable role, although one wonders why he bothered, his games were as tricksome as a Greek deity, the most fickle of the bunch.

Edit: As to Melkor fooling them all...he was the strongest and most persuasive of them all, so a little understanding may be needed. It was always my thought that Tolkien was hinting at the lesson of pure goodness not anticpating or understanding evil, or deception. Hence Arda Marred, not Arda Complete (Flaws Included) (TM).

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Rimbaud ]

Legolas · 11-07-2002, 10:20 AM

This is somewhat discussed here.

Voralphion · 11-07-2002, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Tickle-me-Ulmo played a reasonable role, although one wonders why he bothered, his games were as tricksome as a Greek deity, the most fickle of the bunch.

With this I disagree. If it weren't for Ulmo, Tuor would never have gone to Gondolin, meaning he never would have met Idril and Earendil wouldn't have been born. If it weren't for Earendil, the Valar would never have come to ME to defeat Morgoth and all of ME would slowly have come under his control.
I think Ulmo did the most of all the Valar to help ME, certainly more than Manwe.

11-06-2002, 09:35 PM	#1
skyfiery Guest Posts: n/a	The Valar I've read the Silmarillion. In it, it is said that the Valar are higher powers who formed the world Iluvatar created, and entered Arda to become somewhat like guardians of the Children of Iluvatar. So, if it's supposed to be like that, it can be thought (at least in my POV) that the Valar should be all wise and make no mistakes. However, they made many--summoning the Elves to Aman; trusting Melkor too easily (especially Manwe) etc. The Children of Iluvatar (and Aule) did great deeds of valour. Like when Luthien dared to steal a Silmaril with Beren from Morgoth. In that sense, isn't what is portrayed the idea that the Valar are not as powerful as they seem to be? And that if Elves and Men try hard enough, they can rise to the ranks of the Powers? Well, this is just my opinion. I may be wrong, but anyone...? Sky

11-07-2002, 09:41 AM	#4
Rimbaud The Perilous Poet Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Heart of the matter Posts: 1,062	Tolkien's theology utilises concepts familiar to all human religions; those of omniscient watching powers and the under-explained impotence of those bodies to act. Still, at least Manwë sent some Eagles, from time to time. Tickle-me-Ulmo played a reasonable role, although one wonders why he bothered, his games were as tricksome as a Greek deity, the most fickle of the bunch. Edit: As to Melkor fooling them all...he was the strongest and most persuasive of them all, so a little understanding may be needed. It was always my thought that Tolkien was hinting at the lesson of pure goodness not anticpating or understanding evil, or deception. Hence Arda Marred, not Arda Complete (Flaws Included) (TM). [ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Rimbaud ] __________________ And all the rest is literature

11-07-2002, 10:20 AM	#5
Legolas A Northern Soul Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Valinor Posts: 1,847	This is somewhat discussed here. __________________ ...take counsel with thyself, and remember who and what thou art.

11-07-2002, 03:08 AM	#2
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	The last King of Numenor thought he could "rise to the ranks of the Powers". He didn't quite make it.

11-07-2002, 05:21 AM	#3
skyfiery Guest Posts: n/a	Hm...but maybe his intention was all wrong? That he lusted for power for his own. What I meant was...doing great things; inner strength, that the Children of Iluvatar could then rise as high or almost to the ranks of the Powers. Sky