LotR2-TTT-Seq25

[alatar]

I'm a typical middle child. I'm the mediator. The one that makes everything OK, puts their own needs aside to make sure everybody's happy. It's hard to change your nature, even with years and years of therapy. - Jennifer Jason Leigh


The war continues in Osgiliath, yet as the Winged Nazgûl aren’t about, Faramir seems unconcerned. With the air full of projectiles, he walks as if saying, “It’s like this all of the time…you should see during the holidays!” Faramir shows Frodo, Sam and Gollum the old sewer system of Osgiliath (not to be confused with the new sewer system). We are to believe that the sewer runs UNDER the river. Think about that for a moment.

Here in the Steel City (Pittsburgh), the powers that be want to build a tunnel under a river so that 5 people a day can ride a train approximately 100 yards. The tunnel is exciting and surely will be a tourist attraction We can’t cross the river on a bridge; no, that would make too much sense and not expend enough of our limited resources. Anyway, it’s pretty silly, but typical - a simple practical solution is ignored for some grandiose scheme of dubious worth. These same pols’ ancestors must have been in charge of public works in Gondor. Their wagons and shirts were emblazoned with dreaded “GPW.” They, at considerable expense, designed and built a sewer line that ran under a river. Water, and anything and everything else that made it into this sewer, would go exactly where, assuming that gravity works the same here as there? I assume that somewhere in the system that there are immense pumps that push the sewage uphill into East Osgiliath, where it is loaded onto wagons, pulled by mûmakil, and carted to the Dead Marshes.

At least we know what Sauron’s gripe is with Gondor.

PJ had to add this silliness to get our main characters back across the wide Anduin. If he would have left them on the East side in the first place…And we are also to believe that Sauron does not know of the sewer system? At least the extended version explains, however farcifully, how Frodo, Sam and Gollum get back across the river. The theatrical version had me guessing. It’s just seems so contrived and there’s no reason for any of the ‘action’ requiring the West Side story. Anyway…

Sam blows smoke Faramir’s way, stating that he showed the very highest quality for…I guess Sam figures that anyone who listened to his speech must be a high quality person, for as far as I can see, all that Faramir did was stand there, listen, then inexplicably change his mind about the Ring’s – and Frodo’s fate. Everyone’s feeling giddy, as Captain Faramir goes mushy and pays Sam a compliment as well. At least Sam’s is deserved. If I were the two hobbits’ I’m make good and run before some Gondorian opens his mouth and Faramir changes his mind yet again.

Gollum gets manhandled while being quizzed about Middle Earth geography. To Cirith Ungol they go with a warning from the good Captain. Too bad Frodo won’t head the warning. But then again, he’s a bit misty-eyed as Faramir, after abusing him and Sam across Ithilien and Gondor, lets him go, and so all is forgiven. “If only Sam had made a speech in Henneth Annûn.”

Frodo and Sam make their way into the sewer. When they are out of sight, high quality Faramir has a few last words for the low quality Gollum - I must say again, Gollum is NOT CG, and a living breathing being. He’s rendered that well.

Faramir has no warning for Frodo about traveling with one that has done murder, or of granting Gollum safe passage out of Gondor, just a threat to a frail wretched creature then more abuse. Again I feel for Gollum. The creature tries to keep up, but seemingly there’s something wrong with its right arm and body, and it struggles. Sam tries to make nice, but the damage is already done. Sam compliment Gollum’s understanding as the scene closes.

Next, we see the five horseman of the apocalypse. Or is it six? Is Gimli behind Legolas, or did he fall off again? Anyway, we see Théoden’s attendant, Théoden King, Gandalf the White, Legolas and something with a cap, and the very Lord Aragorn himself.

Gandalf spouts off about Sauron’s wrath and retribution. Somehow the Eye will be torqued as, well, Orthanc is underwater and new management and Théoden and his people still live. Thought that Saruman was working for himself, or is he working for Sauron? And how will the Eye learn of the Fall of Isengard? It’s too confusing. Anyway, the horsemen gaze out over the horizon and see, seemingly, Mount Doom erupting, which usually is the signal that war comes, but here I think that Sauron may just be expressing anger and frustration over the Sewers of Osgiliath. “If only I could find them!”

Gandalf closes out with the line, “The battle for Middle-earth is about to begin.” Why he didn’t say, “See ya next time on, ‘While the Middle Earth turn’,” I’m not sure. Note that this image of Gandalf looks too two dimensional – too flat, as if he has the case of terminal stares. His face just doesn’t look right. Regardless, the old wizard smiles, and maybe he is enjoying what will be his greatest labor, or maybe he thinks kindly on two witless hobbits that just recently were going to Minas Tirith but now are heading off to Cirith Ungol just after Sauron, via Mount Doom, signaled that at the very least that he is in a wrathful mood and looking for some retribution. And there’s something in those hills that’s waiting, as we will soon learn.

With all of that going for the good guys, I’d smile too.

Frodo and Sam plod along to the Cross-roads, possibly, and Sam brings up yet again tales and stories. PJ has Sam quoting from the book, and here I don’t see a story with Frodo the Courageous, at least not yet. Frodo returns the quote then compliments his brave companion. Good stuff, but I’d like to have seen a little more of the brave captain Frodo and his loyal batman.

Everyone’s just happy-slappy and full of good will. Can we all hug? I think that if the Witch King were to suddenly appear, he’d join in and he, Frodo and Sam would be sitting around enjoying a pipe and a laugh. The movie is almost over, and everyone who still alive is happy and full of joy.

Except for Gollum, that is.

He begins to lose the last sheds of Sméagol as he and Gollum discuss Master’s fate. Note that when the evil Gollum speaks, the creature is more animated and seemingly less injured/pained. He gains strength from his dark side. Sam and Frodo, oblivious to Gollum’s struggle, call out for him. Great idea when you are behind enemy lines. Gollum then drops the cliffhanger. She. She’ll do it, she’ll do those nasty hobbits in, and then the Ring will be Gollum’s.

Peter Jackson’s second installment ends with an excellent song performed by Emiliana Torrini. The lyrics just capture the last moment of the film perfectly, and are delivered in an eerie fashion. It’s just too good. If you read the lyrics, you see why Gollum fell, and why Frodo yet has a chance.

We leave the movie with Sam and Frodo, now with Gollum, on their way to Mordor (isn’t that where they started the movie?), Merry and Pippin amongst new allies in Isengard, Arwen on her way West, Gandalf returned from the dead, powered up seemingly, and Legolas, Gimli and Aragorn amongst Théoden’s people, whom they had saved from extinction. Saruman and Wormtongue await their fates in Isengard, and Faramir sealed his fate by giving up the Ring. The Eye still looks out from Barad-dûr.

This finishes The Two Towers EE DVD.


What I liked about the movie:

• The opening was spectacular and unexpected. It put Gandalf in a new light - he didn’t fall, but was simply continuing the battle.

• The scenery was awesome. After time you take for granted that Middle Earth is real.

• Gollum was spot on. The schizophrenic conversation scene should have won awards for Peter Jackson, WETA and of course Andy Serkis. We see that Gollum is not purely evil, nor simple, but a complex troubled soul.

• Howard Shore again hits the mark with his score, especially for inventing the Rohirrim theme.

• Théoden breaking down as he finally mourns the passing of his son was a great scene, and was acted well.

• The battle for Helm’s Deep is somewhere between liked and not liked. I liked it in a visceral way, and the battle was just immense and over the top. The disliked items include the lack of battle logistics, the hyping of Legolas and Gimli and the fact that the Uruks almost overrun the place entire.

What I didn’t like about the movie:

• The Ents. Too CG and watered down. Treebeard is played as a fool. I skip these parts of the movie.

• Faramir’s character, though improved in the Extended Edition, is too weak. He seems to want to gain his father’s approval, yet in a moment passes on that which might have gained him access to the Steward’s cold heart (mostly likely not).

• Frodo remains passive.

• The Black Gate was contrived and silly.

• The over-use of the “bet that won’t/can’t happen” device.

• Did we really need to have Aragorn go missing? Surely there was a better way to bring in the back story between he and Arwen.

• Why is Gimli, in many scenes, shown as a clown? I’m all for a chuckle now and then, but again we get the same note from the same instrument.

I’ll quit there. The Two Towers was a good second ‘bridge’ movie, but hopefully PJ will get back to the books in The Return of the King.

Thank you for your posts.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

It's interesting that while PJ left the endings (last twenty minutes or so) of FOTR and ROTK completely untouched, he basically created a whole new ending for this movie. I like the new scenes, especially this one with Faramir. It's certainly closer to his book version than before, though he's not quite to the point of harmony that he'll reach in ROTK.

I like Gollum's story arc in this movie, even if it peaks at a different point from the book. In the book, Gollum's struggle is even more complex than in the film, and he turns evil once and for all on the Stairs of Cirith Ungol, due to Sam's roughness. In the movie (which of course doesn't get us to Cirith Ungol), the turning point comes when he is "betrayed" by Master to the evil punching kicking Men of the West.

As for the final Smeagol/Gollum conversation in the film, did you notice how almost all of it was ONE shot? As Gollum keeps moving further to the left and whispering to himself, the camera follows him and never once changes angles. It's not a slap-you-in-the-face-with-how-awesome-it-is shot like the sweeping Aragorn-Uruks shot at Amon Hen in FOTR, but it's still spectacular. Andrew Lesnie, the Oscar-winning cinematographer (and Grizzly Painter in "The Long and Short of It"), rarely gets enough credit for his fantastic work on the films.

The final shot, sweeping up through the trees for a view of the Dark Tower and Mount Doom, is perfect. And, of course, Gollum's Song is incredible, perfectly capturing his part of this movie and the next one.

So, was it better than FOTR? I'd have to say probably so, though it's a close call. But then again, considering that Jackson, like Tolkien, considers them to be merely volumes in one long saga, it's probably the wrong question to ask.

[Macalaure]

As for the final Smeagol/Gollum conversation in the film, did you notice how almost all of it was ONE shot? As Gollum keeps moving further to the left and whispering to himself, the camera follows him and never once changes angles. It's not a slap-you-in-the-face-with-how-awesome-it-is shot like the sweeping Aragorn-Uruks shot at Amon Hen in FOTR, but it's still spectacular. Andrew Lesnie, the Oscar-winning cinematographer (and Grizzly Painter in "The Long and Short of It"), rarely gets enough credit for his fantastic work on the films.

We should also credit the superb acting of Andy Serkis, who was basically acting two different characters at the same time. I could be wrong about this, but wasn't the earlier conversation also taken in one shot, just with two camera angles?

I agree with almost everything alatar has said, except that I didn't find the Black Gate that bad and he forgot to say how unnecessary the addition of Brega was. Though Gollum was great visually and Serkis did an awesome job, I didn't like that he was simplified, since the book version is not only deeper, but also scarier because more unpredictable.

Lastly I have to say that I liked FotR much better. It was an impressive and amazingly well-done introduction into Middle-earth. Plus, it had Black Riders and Balrogs, whereas the Two Towers has lemming hyaenas.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Yes, that is correct about the other Smeag-Gol scene, Macalaure. And you're right. Andy Serkis is phenomenal. There is no other Gollum.

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Also, just to note that the unfamiliar-looking Rohan dude beside Theoden is actually Karl Urban's stunt rider. They were supposed to paste Urban's face on top of the guy so that Eomer would be present for the scene, but forgot and left the stunt guy's face in. Not really a big deal, since he's only in like two shots in the scene.

[Trotter]

High,

Personally, TTT didn't do it for me. Granted, it had some awesome scenes, but I think the script was really lacking. I know that it was the hardest for PJ to do because it was the middle one, but even so... it needed a few more re-writes. Scenes that should have been short were too long, and vice-versa. Infuses was placed upon certain places and people that it shouldn't have been placed upon. And because of that this film, as well as ROTK, suffered.

Just my bit anyway...

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Trotter

Personally, TTT didn't do it for me. Granted, it had some awesome scenes, but I think the script was really lacking. I know that it was the hardest for PJ to do because it was the middle one, but even so... it needed a few more re-writes. Scenes that should have been short were too long, and vice-versa. Infuses was placed upon certain places and people that it shouldn't have been placed upon. And because of that this film, as well as ROTK, suffered.

Trotter, welcome to the Downs, and also welcome to the SbS. You seem to feel as I regarding Peter Jackson's middle child, The Two Towers, of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. What, specifically didn't you like about the script (note that there is a link to the script here)? Which scenes dragged on, and which were too short?

And I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "Infuses was placed upon certain places and people that it shouldn't have been placed upon."

Thanks for posting.

[Trotter]

Thanks for replying Alatar!

Really, my whole beef with the script for TTT was that it was badly structured. It just didn't feel smooth to me, there was far too much cutting back and forth between the two story lines for my taste. Now I certainly realize that it could not have been structured like Tolkien's novel, given that film is a largely different medium, but changes could have been made. Personally, I would have preferred TTT to stick with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum for the most part. But I understand that Peter Jackson wanted Frodo and Aragorn to be 'joint main characters,' so to speak.
As for what scenes dragged on... Well... Helm's Deep for one! I know that is not a popular view, but there it is. I simply think that that battle was ridiculously overblown and badly staged, stealing precious screen time from 'true Tolkien' moments that could have been in the film instead. Sure, it had its highlights, but most of them were smashed under the weight of everything else! Other scenes that come to mind are the ones with Arwen and Aragorn... ugh! Granted, some romance was needed, but these scenes were too much for me! I believe that far too much time was given to their relationship in the trilogy as a whole. Others include the Fangorn scenes, the whole Osgiliath bit, etc.
Okay, I'll wrap this up. I think that too much infuses was placed upon Aragorn and Arwen, as stated above, on Helm's Deep, on the Ring's possessive power, and on Saruman's army. That's all I can think of now.


P.S. It may seem to some that I'm nitpicking TTT, and that may be true, but oh well...


Trotter

[alatar]

Originally Posted by Trotter

Really, my whole beef with the script for TTT was that it was badly structured. It just didn't feel smooth to me, there was far too much cutting back and forth between the two story lines for my taste. Now I certainly realize that it could not have been structured like Tolkien's novel, given that film is a largely different medium, but changes could have been made. Personally, I would have preferred TTT to stick with Frodo, Sam, and Gollum for the most part. But I understand that Peter Jackson wanted Frodo and Aragorn to be 'joint main characters,' so to speak.

It was a challenge to be able to keep in the audience's brains three main story lines. Not sure how I would have done that differently, as we can't have three mini movies within one movie. The changes may have been abrupt and could have been cut better, but...

As for what scenes dragged on... Well... Helm's Deep for one! I know that is not a popular view, but there it is. I simply think that that battle was ridiculously overblown and badly staged, stealing precious screen time from 'true Tolkien' moments that could have been in the film instead. Sure, it had its highlights, but most of them were smashed under the weight of everything else!

I would have taken a few more minutes of battle at Helm's Deep and would have given the Ents and falling Aragorn scenes. Maybe PJ, thinking of his audience, thought that a big fantasy world battle scene would really catch some people's attention. We, the book fans, were going regardless, and so he may have wanted to have something for those looking for an action flick...

Other scenes that come to mind are the ones with Arwen and Aragorn... ugh! Granted, some romance was needed, but these scenes were too much for me! I believe that far too much time was given to their relationship in the trilogy as a whole.

...or a romantic 'date' movie. "It's a love story, you'll see. There's this guy who one day might be King, and he's in love with this Elf, but her dad's against the relationship, and so she has to leave...but there's this other woman, and she likes the King guy, but he almost dies (I won't mention Brego) then comes back and, when he could go after the second woman, claims the pendant given to him from woman #1, who may yet defy her father. It's so romantic...sniff...and that battle scene that you heard about isn't really 30 minutes long."

P.S. It may seem to some that I'm nitpicking TTT, and that may be true, but oh well...

Well, if you call that nitpicking, then I'm picking the nits on your nits.

[Trotter]

Ho Hum...

The whole problem is that PJ made the films with all the 'other' people in mind, not just the fans. Sorry, couldn't resist that... Anyway, I simply think that Pete and crew went in the wrong direction with this second installment. Their unnessary character alterations and created plot threads bog down this already-complicated-story in my opinion. But of course... none of this can be helped now.

P.S. Now what they needed was Christoper Tolkien to review and approve the scripts... Yeah right, like he would've ever been satisfied!

[Elladan and Elrohir]

I think with TTT, they did the best they could, which is still very, very good. And honestly, I think the length of the battle is well nigh perfect. Of course, I only currently own the theatrical releases, so I haven't watched the extended versions in a while. But I thought it was very well done. It progresses clearly, never gets repetitive, and builds upward to the Forth Eorlingas climax.

The Ent scenes are the toughest to adapt, IMHO. If they had went with the book, it would have been an emotional letdown. Same for Frodo and Sam's storyline. If Faramir just lets 'em go, they basically have nothing to do for the rest of the film, since they aren't going to Cirith and Torech Ungol in this movie.

[Trotter]

Originally Posted by Elladan and Elrohir

If Faramir just lets 'em go, they basically have nothing to do for the rest of the film, since they aren't going to Cirith and Torech Ungol in this movie.

In my humble opinion...


I think that the pass of Cirith Ungol should have been in the film. Indeed, it should have been the climax of the film. I have heard the arguements about why it wasn't in though, something about it clashing with Helm's Deep, which was supposed to be the climactic moment in Pete's TTT. And it not fitting into the timeline of the other storylines. Granted, those are good arguements, and the entire film would've had to have been reworked had old Shelob made an appearance. But I still believe that the film could have been better had they kept the voice of Saruman and Shelob in...

I'll just have to wait until I make my own version...

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Trotter

I think that the pass of Cirith Ungol should have been in the film. Indeed, it should have been the climax of the film. I have heard the arguements about why it wasn't in though, something about it clashing with Helm's Deep, which was supposed to be the climactic moment in Pete's TTT. And it not fitting into the timeline of the other storylines.

The timeline issue is the key one. Cirith Ungol takes place during the siege of Minas Tirith. It would not have worked to have the siege of MT/Cirith Ungol as the climax of the second film, particularly after Helm's Deep. I think that Jackson and co made the correct choice here.

[Trotter]

Originally Posted by The Saucepan Man

The timeline issue is the key one. Cirith Ungol takes place during the siege of Minas Tirith. It would not have worked to have the siege of MT/Cirith Ungol as the climax of the second film, particularly after Helm's Deep. I think that Jackson and co made the correct choice here.

Yeah, as I said, the entire film would've had to have been reworked, which is something I wish they would have done. I would've had Frodo, Sam, and Gollum for the last half hour of the movie, and then bring them in later in ROTK so that the timelines would fit.


Trotter

[Elladan and Elrohir]

Well, that works in the book, but I don't think it would work very well in the film. If they'd thought it would work, they could have just split TTT and ROTK up into the separate books the way Tolkien did, and had half of the movie be one story, and half the other.