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06-20-2006, 07:37 PM | #1 |
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The ring could have been destroyed a lot easier.
Why didn't and elf just take the ring across to Valinor.Surely the mighty Valar could of destroyed it and all those people would not have to suffer.
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06-20-2006, 11:59 PM | #2 | |
Eagle of the Star
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According to Elrond, it would not be received there:
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06-23-2006, 02:38 AM | #3 |
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they could have called the eagles, to bring them to the mount doom!
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06-23-2006, 03:20 AM | #4 | |
Illustrious Ulair
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06-23-2006, 09:49 AM | #5 | |
Laconic Loreman
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Atalante, check out this, it's got all the answers to the eagles...
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06-23-2006, 02:11 PM | #6 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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No, they couldn't have given it to the Eagles. Many reasons.
1) There would be no story 2) The Nazgul and the Eye of Sauron would easily see a gigantic bird flying towards Mount Doom. 3) How do you expect them to carry it? Their huge talon? It would easily slip out into hiding yet again! 4) Gwaihir himself told Gandalf that he could only bear him a short distance from Isengard. The Eagle's business is not with the people of Middle-earth. Also, Tolkien writes on why the Eagles would not have taken the Ring into Mordor. It might be in that link the last poster gave, I'm not sure. |
06-23-2006, 08:50 PM | #7 |
Sword of Spirit
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I think it's also good to note that the Eagles served Manwe. It can then easily be understood that, since the Valar did not want to take care of the Ring themselves, Manwe would not have wanted his servants, the Eagles, to get too involved.
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06-24-2006, 02:09 AM | #8 | |
Princess of Skwerlz
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'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...' |
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06-24-2006, 07:04 AM | #9 |
Auspicious Wraith
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The Valar, eh? Two scenarios.
A scandalous effort by them to wilfully ignore the problem. "Oh! It's Middle-earth's trouble, not ours!" Cowards. Self-absorbed scoundrels. Do they really care about good and evil? Or perhaps, just maybe, Elrond didn't know what he was talking about. Perhaps Manwë was sitting up there on the Mountain, shouting "No, you fools! Don't let the hobbit take it! Send it over here and we'll deal with it!"
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06-24-2006, 08:33 AM | #10 | |
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06-24-2006, 02:58 PM | #11 |
Auspicious Wraith
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Beth, if you are suggesting that the Valar's gambit in the War of the (shiny) Ring was to rouse the magpies, I have to question whether their hearts were really in it.
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06-24-2006, 03:06 PM | #12 | |
Energetic Essence
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06-24-2006, 03:12 PM | #13 |
Auspicious Wraith
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And I thought this thread had passed over the Sea into Mirth.
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06-24-2006, 03:21 PM | #14 |
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Thoughts on the Valar...
They seem to have taken a back seat in the events of Middle-earth. Which is fine. Things tended not to work out as well as they would have liked when they did interfere with the lives of Men and Elves. Numenor, while it started well, became problematic and was destroyed cataclysmically. And too, I can see them being hesitant to intervene in anything directly. They didn't know the whole of the music, so they couldn't have been sure of Eru's plans. And where Men were involved, those plans had a way of being unpredictable, since the music wasn't 'fate' to the mortals. They left the business of running Middle-earth to its inhabitants, though they did what they could to help indirectly. Consider the Istari, sent to aid the free people against Sauron but expressly forbidden to use their powers to interfere directly. A final point - who's to say that the Valar could have destroyed it? They weren't incorruptible. Melkor certainly wasn't. Gandalf feared the Ring. Saruman sought it for himself. If it went to Valinor, who's to say that one of the Valar wouldn't have fallen to it and become the worst Dark Lord of them all since Morgoth? Accepting the Ring could well have been the worst possible step for the safety of Middle-earth. EDIT: Now, don't go and underestimate those magpies, master Pirateomer. Dread creatures they are, and would be quite good scouts for anyone. As for turning them to the good side, I suppose Radagast might have done so, but being that he looked every bit the scarecrow (at least to my imagination), I don't know how much help he would have been.
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. Last edited by Celuien; 06-24-2006 at 03:26 PM. |
06-25-2006, 12:15 AM | #15 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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The successful destruction of the Ring was owed almost entirely to the Valar. It was they who sent the Istari, and it was Gandalf who saved Middle-earth by engineering and manipulating the events of the War of the Ring. Mount Doom, we're told, is the only fire that can unmake The One Ring; not just because it's the only fire hot enough, but because it is the fire in which it was originally forged: there's a metaphysical connection there. Taking the Ring to Aman would have done nothing to destroy Sauron, since as long as the Ring existed, Sauron was impossible to permanently eradicate. The only way, in fact, to defeat Sauron once and for ever was to destroy the Ring, which, as I pointed out above, could not have been done anywhere but Mount Doom. The Valar acted exactly how they should have by assigning the Istari to their mission--particularly in selecting the humble but mighty Olorin.
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06-25-2006, 01:21 AM | #16 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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I,m with Obloquoy with this one, Bilbo was meant to find the Ring therefore Frodo was meant to have it, and that is a sobering thought. Is this not fate, is not fate in the hand of the God/Iluvatar or the powers. How many chess pieces are moved randomly, even in seeming defeat, Merry and Pippin to Fangorn, Smeagols continued existence. Concience is said to be the link with God, everyone has that voice in their head, was Eru active in the decisions of the Fellowship?
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06-25-2006, 01:53 AM | #17 | ||||||||
Eagle of the Star
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06-25-2006, 10:12 AM | #18 | |
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Also, at no point did Gandalf fail. Eru's intervention was precisely because Gandalf succeeded not only in protecting his company and mission, but he had also conquered the moral test that Saruman had failed--namely, he maintained integrity to the Powers when confronted by an enemy that he really needed to open up against. Lastly, there's no reason to believe that Gandalf's wisdom was enhanced. He was one of the wisest Ainur in his beginning, and was the wisest of the Istari from the start. Gandalf was enhanced with regard to the limiting nature of his incarnation and the rules he was subject to. Gandalf the White (and Olorin, who was presumably mightier still) was always a latent part of Gandalf of the Third Age, but was only allowed to be revealed after his true test of faith--that is, dying in abnegation of himself (to use Tolkien's word) to the Balrog. At that moment, though he had the power within himself to defeat that demon decisively, he remained loyal to the governing rules of his mission and kept his display of power in check. |
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06-25-2006, 11:21 AM | #19 | |||
Eagle of the Star
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To address your other points: Quote:
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07-01-2006, 02:59 AM | #20 | |
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I must disagree with you Raynor, Gandalf, or Olorin, had a part in the devising of the world, he was the wisest of the children of the Valar, more powerful(?) than even Melian who protected a realm from Melkor the Mighty! Doing those things with the Nazgul and the Chamber is probably like lifting a feather for him. I think he must have been holding himself back, even a lowly Noldorian elf can destroy a Balrog.
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And what does it mean when he threatens to uncloak before Bilbo, is this also a threat to reveal himself? The Newbie signs out. Last edited by The Sixth Wizard; 07-01-2006 at 03:07 AM. |
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07-01-2006, 03:32 AM | #21 | |||
Eagle of the Star
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07-01-2006, 03:55 AM | #22 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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What I was trying to say was according to Valaquenta Olorin was the 'wisest' of the Maiar, if he was this mighty is he just refusing to show his power because of Manwe's orders? For his inner power would these things be easy, like destroying the Chamber? And it may be up for debate whether he meant he was sorely trialed from breaking his 'Rules' against the Nazgul, if the greater power of his would have had less trouble...
And Elves in general are less powerful than Maiar, even the great lords maybe, this was the impression I was going on. Will cease arguing now! Last edited by The Sixth Wizard; 07-01-2006 at 04:04 AM. |
07-01-2006, 10:56 AM | #23 | |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Edit: *I guess that other guy is claiming that, but he's wrong. Last edited by obloquy; 07-01-2006 at 11:23 AM. |
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07-01-2006, 11:20 AM | #24 | |||
Eagle of the Star
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07-01-2006, 07:25 PM | #25 |
Shade of Carn Dűm
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This is all very interesting, first of all, thanks for a learning experience!
What are the limitations he is subject to anyway, I can't remember where I read them... I was under the impression he has to be limited to the incarnate body... |
07-01-2006, 07:41 PM | #26 | ||
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect. But actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, it's more like a big ball of wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey... stuff. |
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