Differences and Similarities - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

kittiewhirl1677 · 04-08-2003, 06:54 PM

I need a bunch of differences and similarities between Theoden and Denethor. The facts can't go farther than the fifth chapter(when the Riders of Rohan finally reach Gondor) in RotK, though.

It's some info I need in order to do my homework. There's no place better than the
B-D forums to find the right stuff! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

GaladrieloftheOlden · 04-08-2003, 06:59 PM

Similarities- Whew, hard. Basically none, except they're both old guys who love their son(s).
Differences- T is good-hearted, doesn't try to trap people with words, Denethor is shrewd, is suspicious of life in general.
Post more later [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

kittiewhirl1677 · 04-08-2003, 07:08 PM

Thanks Izzy! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Why can't anyone else think of anything? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

**The Saucepan Man** · 04-08-2003, 08:03 PM

Well, one similarity is that they were both rendered incapable of properly defending their people. In Denethor's case, this was caused by despair at the strength of the enemy facing him, fuelled by his use of the Palantir which exposed him to Sauron's deceits. In Theoden's case, he was seduced into inaction by Wormtongue's words. The difference, of course, is that Gandalf was able to rouse Theoden from inaction, whereas Denethor's despair only deepened.

So, I suppose you could say that attempts were made by the enemy to neutralise both of them (and therefore their armies) - Theoden by Saruman through Wormtongue and Denethor by Sauron through the Palantir.

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 04-09-2003, 01:25 AM

One major (and obvious) difference is that Theoden was a King, while Denethor was only a Steward.

Deathwail · 04-09-2003, 01:34 AM

They both had sons killed by suprise Orc attacks. Sorry all i could think of atm. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Meela · 04-09-2003, 07:23 AM

Wow! This is a topic that is in my head quite often!

I only have the obvious similarities, Im afraid.

1) This only works if Theoden's wife is dead (I dont know who she is or where she is)
But if she is dead, they both have dead wives, as well as a dead son.

2) They both despise/despised Gandalf (if Im correct on Theoden's part.)

3) I can't remember any more.

I also included Elrond in my little circle.
Three ME leaders, each without a wife. Seems to be part of the job.

"Wanted. Leader for kingdom. Must kill wife before applying."

Selmo · 04-09-2003, 08:21 AM

Despite their similarities, both having a wife who died young, both worn down by war, both losing a son in battle and both under subtle evil influence from Wormtongue and the Palantir, Denethor and Theoden were very different characters.

The culture of Gondor was sophisticated, literate and very aware of its long history. Rohan was a relatively new small nation, keeping no account of its history except in song. Its people saw only immediate need and its pride was in its horses and its skill in arms, not in the achievement of past generations of scholars and builders.
In war, the King of Rohan was expected to lead his army; in Gondor the Steward was expected to direct and control his armies through others, as Denethor did, employing the young Aragorn (under another name).

Denethor was raised to be a man of thought and study, Theoden a man of action. To Theoden, war ment a cavalry charge and swift death or victory. To Denathor, it ment long-term planning of strategy and carefully thought-out tactics.
Once free of Wormtongue, Theoden could, with Gandalf's support, respond to changing circumstances but Denethor, prideful and burdened by the weight of thousands of years of cultural history, was much less addaptable, much more set in his view of the world and much more resistant to taking the advice of others, especially Gandalf.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Selmo ]

Meela · 04-09-2003, 08:25 AM

Denethor didn't employ Thorongil, did he? thought it was his father, Ecthelion.

(sorry, kinda random post...)

Selmo · 04-09-2003, 08:39 AM

Sorry.

Yes, it was Denethor's farther who Thorongil (Aragorn) served. Denethor saw him as a rival.

It was ok for the sons of Stewards to be field commanders, risking their lives in defence of Gondor. Denethor proved himself to by an able Captain of men in his youth, out-done only by Aragorn. It was only after Denethor became Steward that he took on the task of planning and directing, remaining in Minas Tirith.

I disagree with Grounds-Keeper-Willie's comment that Denethor was "only a Steward".
Being the Steward of Gondor ment very much more than being King of any other nation.

[ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Selmo ]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 04-10-2003, 01:27 AM

I did not mean that a steward was less of a job or anything. I did not say that a steward of Gondor didn't mean very much more than being King of any other nation. I was speaking in terms of royalty, and you can see how a steward has just as much responsibilities (or more) as a king does, but still it is not king. It' hard to explain this, but I hope you understand what I meant, sorry for the confusion.

[ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ]

GaladrieloftheOlden · 04-10-2003, 05:09 PM

I'd say that any similarities seem to deal more with physical things, while the differences have more to do with personality.

04-08-2003, 06:54 PM	#1
kittiewhirl1677 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Living Hell Posts: 255	Differences and Similarities I need a bunch of differences and similarities between Theoden and Denethor. The facts can't go farther than the fifth chapter(when the Riders of Rohan finally reach Gondor) in RotK, though. It's some info I need in order to do my homework. There's no place better than the B-D forums to find the right stuff! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone...

04-08-2003, 06:59 PM	#2
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	Similarities- Whew, hard. Basically none, except they're both old guys who love their son(s). Differences- T is good-hearted, doesn't try to trap people with words, Denethor is shrewd, is suspicious of life in general. Post more later [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."

04-08-2003, 07:08 PM	#3
kittiewhirl1677 Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Living Hell Posts: 255	Thanks Izzy! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] Why can't anyone else think of anything? [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img] [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ The world was young, the mountains green. No stain yet on the moon was seen. No words were laid on stream or stone, When Durin woke and walked alone...

04-08-2003, 08:03 PM	#4
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Well, one similarity is that they were both rendered incapable of properly defending their people. In Denethor's case, this was caused by despair at the strength of the enemy facing him, fuelled by his use of the Palantir which exposed him to Sauron's deceits. In Theoden's case, he was seduced into inaction by Wormtongue's words. The difference, of course, is that Gandalf was able to rouse Theoden from inaction, whereas Denethor's despair only deepened. So, I suppose you could say that attempts were made by the enemy to neutralise both of them (and therefore their armies) - Theoden by Saruman through Wormtongue and Denethor by Sauron through the Palantir. __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!

04-09-2003, 01:25 AM	#5
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	One major (and obvious) difference is that Theoden was a King, while Denethor was only a Steward. __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

04-09-2003, 01:34 AM	#6
Deathwail Haunting Spirit Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Door of Night Posts: 99	They both had sons killed by suprise Orc attacks. Sorry all i could think of atm. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ He who arises in Might.

04-09-2003, 07:23 AM	#7
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Wow! This is a topic that is in my head quite often! I only have the obvious similarities, Im afraid. 1) This only works if Theoden's wife is dead (I dont know who she is or where she is) But if she is dead, they both have dead wives, as well as a dead son. 2) They both despise/despised Gandalf (if Im correct on Theoden's part.) 3) I can't remember any more. I also included Elrond in my little circle. Three ME leaders, each without a wife. Seems to be part of the job. "Wanted. Leader for kingdom. Must kill wife before applying." __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

04-09-2003, 08:21 AM	#8
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Despite their similarities, both having a wife who died young, both worn down by war, both losing a son in battle and both under subtle evil influence from Wormtongue and the Palantir, Denethor and Theoden were very different characters. The culture of Gondor was sophisticated, literate and very aware of its long history. Rohan was a relatively new small nation, keeping no account of its history except in song. Its people saw only immediate need and its pride was in its horses and its skill in arms, not in the achievement of past generations of scholars and builders. In war, the King of Rohan was expected to lead his army; in Gondor the Steward was expected to direct and control his armies through others, as Denethor did, employing the young Aragorn (under another name). Denethor was raised to be a man of thought and study, Theoden a man of action. To Theoden, war ment a cavalry charge and swift death or victory. To Denathor, it ment long-term planning of strategy and carefully thought-out tactics. Once free of Wormtongue, Theoden could, with Gandalf's support, respond to changing circumstances but Denethor, prideful and burdened by the weight of thousands of years of cultural history, was much less addaptable, much more set in his view of the world and much more resistant to taking the advice of others, especially Gandalf. [ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Selmo ]

04-09-2003, 08:25 AM	#9
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	Denethor didn't employ Thorongil, did he? thought it was his father, Ecthelion. (sorry, kinda random post...) __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

04-09-2003, 08:39 AM	#10
Selmo Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: The Shire (Staffordshire), United Kingdom Posts: 273	Sorry. Yes, it was Denethor's farther who Thorongil (Aragorn) served. Denethor saw him as a rival. It was ok for the sons of Stewards to be field commanders, risking their lives in defence of Gondor. Denethor proved himself to by an able Captain of men in his youth, out-done only by Aragorn. It was only after Denethor became Steward that he took on the task of planning and directing, remaining in Minas Tirith. I disagree with Grounds-Keeper-Willie's comment that Denethor was "only a Steward". Being the Steward of Gondor ment very much more than being King of any other nation. [ April 09, 2003: Message edited by: Selmo ]

04-10-2003, 01:27 AM	#11
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	I did not mean that a steward was less of a job or anything. I did not say that a steward of Gondor didn't mean very much more than being King of any other nation. I was speaking in terms of royalty, and you can see how a steward has just as much responsibilities (or more) as a king does, but still it is not king. It' hard to explain this, but I hope you understand what I meant, sorry for the confusion. [ April 10, 2003: Message edited by: MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie ] __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

04-10-2003, 05:09 PM	#12
GaladrieloftheOlden Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Massachusetts - digging up a bottomless hole, searching for something that's not there... Posts: 1,514	I'd say that any similarities seem to deal more with physical things, while the differences have more to do with personality. __________________ "Glue... very powerful stuff."