Did elves smoke?

[Letty]

Did elves smoke?

[narfforc]

It is said that Legolas disaproved of the habit. Pipe-weed was brought to Middle-earth from Numenor, how it got there I do not know, but I would'nt like to have been the person responsible for smoking the first pipe, how many other weeds they had to try before they found one they liked is frightening to think of......ha-ha

[Lalwendë]

Elveses only smoke when you set 'em on fire. Mua-ha-ha.

It begs the question of whether Lothlorien was a non-smoking establishment. Would you have fancied being ordered outside for a smoke with all those orcses about?

[davem]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Elveses only smoke when you set 'em on fire. Mua-ha-ha.

In an early draft of LotR Gandalf does threaten to set Legolas on fire on Caradras, suggesting he would burn well (Treason of Isengard p170). This implies that Elves are quite flammable & were useful as a source of tinder in an emergency. Feanor was obviously more flammable than the average Elf, but I think we can assume that all Elves had a tendency to ignite in the right circumstances. Tolkien doesn't mention Spontaneous Elven Combustion as a normal event, but I think their well known love of the Sea may have something to do with their awareness of their innate flammability, & their aversion to smoking.

[narfforc]

I think you two have been partaking of the weed......ha-ha, good to see humour is alive and kicking.

[davem]

Originally Posted by narfforc

I think you two have been partaking of the weed......ha-ha, good to see humour is alive and kicking.

Well, I was being quite serious! I think clues to Elven flammability may be found in the text if one searches closely. It seems to be a result of over-excitement or a reaction to extreme danger. For example, in Appendix B we find the following interesting incident:

In the North also there had been war and evil. The realm of Thranduil was invaded, and there was long battle under the trees and great ruin of fire; but in the end Thranduil had the victory.

Clearly the Mirkwood Elves in the heat of battle had spontaneously combusted, igniting the surrounding trees. Of course, its possible that this was a deliberate strategy on the part of a highly trained squad of Suicide Elves (the 'Forlorn Hope'), who sacrificed themselves in an assault on the attacking Orcs.

EDIT

It occurs to me now that the 'Blasting fire' used by Saruman at Helm's Deep may provide evidence that Orcs were descended from Elves. If the Orcs had retained their Elven trait of combustibility he may have used shredded Orc.

This begs the question of what Gandalf used in his fireworks, too. One hopes they were Orc based.....

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

This begs the question of what Gandalf used in his fireworks, too. One hopes they were Orc based.....

The fireworks which had white sparkles were made from shredded Elf toe nail clippings. The black, explosive powder was made of Elven nose hair. Yellow fireworks, like Roman Candles, were made from Galdriel's ear wax. And all red fireworks were carefully constructed from that most precious of commodities, Elf scabs.

[davem]

I think we can also make an informed guess at the nature ot the 'Tricksy Lights' in the Dead Marshes too.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

I think we can also make an informed guess at the nature ot the 'Tricksy Lights' in the Dead Marshes too.

I can picture Gandalf right now, hard at work in his fireworks workshop, feeding captive Elves beans in the attempt to make green Catherine Wheels.

[davem]

Could we have misjudged Feanor re the burning of the Ships at Losgar. Maybe some over excited Noldor burst into flame & took the ships with them?

[Hookbill the Goomba]

You two had better be careful or this thread will be moved to mirth!

Elves? Smoking? I don't see why not. They drank heartily enough, (as seen in The Hobbit) and I like to think that Tolkien put enough of himself into the books that the elves could, after getting to Valinor, sit back in a nice cosy chair and have a good smoke.

I just recalled, however, that Bilbo gave to Merry and Pippin some pipes that he said were made by the Elves (I don't have the book at hand, so someone will have to check that for me). So, perhaps they did. Maybe, like humans, some did and some didn't. I think the question is academic, anyway.

[Lalwendë]

A present for Mr Hookbill:

Bilbo laughed, and he produced out of a pocket two beautiful pipes with pearl mouth-pieces and bound with fine-wrought silver. 'Think of me when you smoke them!' he said. 'The Elves made them for me, but I don't smoke now.'

Perhaps Bilbo had to give up, owing to the flammable nature of his Elven friends.

[davem]

Originally Posted by Hookbill the Goomba

You two had better be careful or this thread will be moved to mirth!

Well, I can only say that I am attempting to explore the nature of Elves in this thread & if others are dragging it down to the level of a 'Mirth' topic I, surely, cannot be held responsible.

While we are speculating, I wonder if the Beacons of Gondor were Elf-Powered. It would be easy enough for a cunning Lord like Denethor to lure some passing Elves to the Beacon Hills on pretence of needing their aid. All that would be needed would be to then invite them to the top to admire the view & at the opportune moment have one of his men sneak up behind them & shout BOO! Instant beacon!

Originally Posted by Lalwende

Perhaps Bilbo had to give up, owing to the flammable nature of his Elven friends.

And how many innocent Elves lost their lives before he learned that lesson, I wonder?

EDIT.

Don't know if anyone could answer this, but how long would an Elf burn for? In the episode I referred to from HoM-e 7 gandalf says of Legolas 'He would burn bright while he lasted!'. This would call into question the usefulness of using Elves as a fuel source. The implication of Gandalf's words is that while Elves may be easy to ignite, they burn out quickly. I think we must imagine them as similar to matches. Which would imply they burn from the head down....

[narfforc]

Yes but the burning question is, do Elves being purer burn longer than Orcs, and are Dwarves Non-flammable because of the stone thingy whatsit, I can see this will cause many heated arguments, I have thought of these things now for more than a minute and my head hurts and I can smell smoke, Oh I am on fire I am burni

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by narfforc

Yes but the burning question is, do Elves being purer burn longer than Orcs, and are Dwarves Non-flammable because of the stone thingy whatsit, I can see this will cause many heated arguments, I have thought of these things now for more than a minute and my head hurts and I can smell smoke, Oh I am on fire I am burni

If dwarves are non-flammable, would this mean that dwarves could have originated the idea of the sauna? Without being combustible they would make great hot rocks. Or of course bed warmers in the midst of dark winter nights.

And if elves could burn, would this suggest a true source for balrogs? If orcs are perverted elves, then possibly a large mass of elves, aflame ... And if their ears are large and pointy enough, then possibly they were mistaken for ... wings.

I'm surprised no one has yet used the smiley that is just begging to be employed here:

[davem]

Originally Posted by Bêthberry

And if elves could burn, would this suggest a true source for balrogs? If orcs are perverted elves, then possibly a large mass of elves, aflame ... And if their ears are large and pointy enough, then possibly they were mistaken for ... wings.

I think its more likely to have been the other way around. I think its more logical that originally there were Balrogs who, due to the stresses of life in the early geological stages of Arda, went to pieces. These Balrog fragments then took the form of individual beings. Of course, it would be necessary for these Elves to substitute a more acceptable account of their origin once they had realised which side their bread was buttered & switched to the winning side, so we get the whole 'Cuivienen' malarky, which all intelligent readers of Tolkien long since dismissed as a nonsense. I think its plain that the real motivation behind the Elves' fear of Balrogs (as evinced by Legolas in Moria) was that they might blow the gaff & reveal the truth of Elven origins. Scholars of Khuzdul have speculated that Gimli's words at that point 'Durin's Bane!' were actually a mishearing by Frodo of words in the dialect of Erebor: 'De' arinz p'en(z)' which translates roughly as 'Ere' Legolas - He says 'Search your feelings - I am your father!'

We do know from The Book of Lost Tales that originally there were a very great number of Balrogs, but in later versions the number reduces significantly - as the number of Elves increases. I don't think this can be put down to mere 'coincidence'.

It would be interesting to know how many Elves were produced by the average exploding Balrog.

[Macalaure]

I think the flammability of orcs gives a whole new perspective to the Dagor Bragollach. Come to think about it! The Siege of Angband went on for centuries while the orcs kept multiplying. At the end, Angband was severely over-populated with them, causing immense social stress to each individuum.
We tend to think that the sudden fire was a carefully planned device of Morgoth to break the siege, when in fact, the number of orcs unavoidably reached a critical point and made many of them go up in flames. The resulting pressure could not be contained by Angband anymore and instead burned the plain of Ard-galen.
We know that hoards of orcs marched behind the flames. These are the first lucky ones who could save themselves from burning and fled in horror - into the swords of elves and men.

Originally Posted by davem

Could we have misjudged Feanor re the burning of the Ships at Losgar. Maybe some over excited Noldor burst into flame & took the ships with them?

So you mean we should blame Amras for it?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Lalwendë

Elveses only smoke when you set 'em on fire. Mua-ha-ha.

It begs the question of whether Lothlorien was a non-smoking establishment. Would you have fancied being ordered outside for a smoke with all those orcses about?

Right. Smoking is best done by hobbits:

[Hookbill the Goomba]

What did I tell you? Here we are in mirth!

I've just had a thought on the subject of burning Elves. In The Two Towers, the weapon that the uruks have brought from Saruman is described as being "A blasting Fire", could this be further Elf powered weaponry?

How do you think Gandalf made his staff light up? Elf dandruff!

[Fordim Hedgethistle]

According to the Leggy-Bopper Olie-girls there's at least one Elf that, like, is so totally hot that he is, as one from an older generation may say, smokin'.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

So "the fading of the elves" so regretted by
the hobbits, elves, and men refers to their
smoking after initial combustion. Fascinating.
Presumably the lack of elves in the Fourth Age spurred
the invention of matches and lighters.

[davem]

I am sorry to see an informed & erudite discussion (on my part in the main, admittedly), relegated to 'Mirth'. Sadly this has always been the fate of such cutting edge speculations

I intentionally provided quotes, & references to Tolkien's works, to back up my thesis that Elves are innately prone to combustion & a particularly useful fuel source. I think its clear, now, that the reason for the tiny number of Elves in Endor by the end of the Third Age is due principally to, on the one hand, their usefulness as a source of domestic fuel &, on the other, to SEC (Spontaneous Elven Combustion) due to over excitement or stress. Incidents of IEC (Intentional Elven Combustion) also seem to have occurred in battle as a deliberate act (Elves as WMD's is an area I think is worthy of further investigation. Morgoth's invasion of Beleriand was probably down to his desire to locate & neutralise this threat to Angband.)

I hope this move to Mirth will not result in the thread being taken over by sillyness & jokey comments.

Thankyou.

[Elu Ancalime]

Before this thread is shut down I will put my two cents in. I recall that at Bilbo's party, Gandalf had many fireworks with DALE printed on them. Perhaps a barter between the men and dwarves of the area to rid themselves of the orc corpses left over from the Battle of Five Armies?

And also, do you think smoking a pipe would be allowed in Lothloriwn and Mirkwood? It might set an accidental forest fire or a scout in Mirkwood might give away his position. Its not like elves would catch lung cancer or anything...As far as SEC goes, maybe expolsion in Arda could be measured in TNT (Trinitorcluene) which is C7 H5 N3 O6, the ashen remains of an orc carcass. Of course it would be more practical and ethical to use orcs instead of elves.

Perhaps its just from the 'Fire' within. <bad pun>
________
Extreme q vaporizer

[davem]

It is of course possible that the long periods of 'Cold War' during the First Age was a result of a policy of 'Mutually Assured Destruction', with Morgoth & the Elven Leaders holding out the threat of suicide bands of Orcs & Elves against each other. It would, in theory, be possible to measure the relative power of such bands in megatonnes. Certainly the devastation of Beleriand seems inexplicable in terms of mere hand to hand fighting & only the deployment of heavy Elven/Orcish ordinance could account for it. Its possible that the real reason an Elf like Glorfindel could take out a Balrog was that he detonated himself & the Balrog, being close by, was blown up as a result.

Its also possible that the Atani who went to Numenor were in reality seeking to escape such devastating forces, or at the very least wanted to get away from the very real problems of fallout & 'elvo-active' contamination.

Thinking about it, its probable that Peter Jackson was alluding to this aspect of Elvish nature in his depiction of Galadriel in the movie.

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by davem

Elves as WMD's is an area I think is worthy of further investigation. Morgoth's invasion of Beleriand was probably down to his desire to locate & neutralise this threat to Angband.

This would help explain why some of the Elven leaders took to hiding down caves, like a certain moustachioed man. Did Morgoth present his Balrog, Troll, Orc and Vampire subjects with a claim that flaming Elves could reach Angband in 45 minutes?

Hmm, Numenor as Three Mile Island? Elendil as captain of the Rainbow Warrior?

[Bêthberry]

Originally Posted by Elu Ancalime

Perhaps its just from the 'Fire' within. <bad pun>

Pun or not, this puts the idea of elves and flames in a different light. We all know that Gandalf is the wielder of the Flame Imperishable, the Secret Fire and the holder of the Fire Ring. (What balrog does not know this?) What does this mean? Does he descend to enlighten the inhabitants of Middle-earth? There is a precedent for this, if not in the ancient Norse mythologies, at least in European art.

I know davem is dead set against this idea, but allow me to point out how prevalent in the European religious tradition is this idea of the descent of the holy flame.

First, a painting by Gustav Dore.




Next, a more modern painting by Luke Dingman.



Now, something by Emil Nolde.



El Greco's interpretation of holy enlightenment:



And, finally, from di Buoninsegna:



I think we have been on the wrong track to contemplate elven self combustion--although may I point out that I was the first on the Downs to imagine this possibility when for REB in a funeral post for the Lord Etceteron I recounted his sodden demise through spontaneous combustion. I do not think it is the elves per se who are flammable--or, in a Canadian colloquialism, blow up good--but rather Eru who chooses to give life through fire.

Originally Posted by Valaquenta

Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä."

I posit that Eä! under this greater illumination might be translated not as Let It Be but as Light My Fire.

[Elu Ancalime]

Perhaps Eru was a pyromaniac. Or he those pictures could be a metephor for the merging of elf and man, the elf being the fire, and man being the people.
________
Starcraft replays

[davem]

I think its growing more & more obvious that the devastation Frodo & Sam encountered in Mordor was a direct result of incendiary devices used by the Last Alliance & by Sauron's forces in response – most probably Elves & Orcs being hurled by catapult into enemy lines. The psychological effect alone of Elves & Orcs flying through the smoky air emitting their characteristic shrieking 'whistles' as they fell must have been devastating. The main advantage of using catapults though would have been the splatter effect, which would have spread devastation over a much larger area than mere self-detonation on the ground by an individual.

[narfforc]

You should all read your Lord of the Gas-Rings again, in The Reburn of The King, The Stewer of Gondor desperately tries to become an Elf in the Chapter called The Pyromaniac Denethor.

[Lalwendë]

It's blindingly obvious that Elves were highly flammable, with their pointy ears, crafted by Eru in the shape of... the Tobacco leaf! Longbottom Leaf? A plant? Pull the other one. Why were all those Elves going into the Woody End never to be seen again? Bit mysterious eh?

Those poor Elves, born to be eternally flammable. They lived innocently enough for many years until the Hobbits cottoned on to the movements of the Firstborn through The Shire and decided to up sticks and move there to tap into this resource. That's why Brandy Hall was such a teeming, complex smial. The Hobbits were harvesting Elves and keeping them deep within the hills in their curing rooms. And that also explains the burnt clearing in the Old Forest; it was an attempt by Hobbits to do some outdoor Elf curing, until all the smoke caused suspicions.

[narfforc]

I've just thought, it's a good thing Elvish Parsley did'nt combust, it would have took a week to put the flames out.

[narfforc]

I have been giving some thought to the problem of Elven Combustion and The Peredhil. Did the Arf'n'Arf's loose some part of their anatomy, say a leg or an arm, then the fire would splutter out, or in it's weakened state did this disease cause hot flushes and a heat rash. Because of the internal heat cause by the Elven part, the Edain part sweated a lot, this helped somewhat, sort of like an external sprinkler system, however there was a problem if the Elven part was stronger, the Arf'nArf might then boil to death. Now if Gimli and Galadriel ever got it on, their children would have an inner coat of fire retardent material, and the family motto would be Runya Asbestoshini or Flame Retardent Children and look a bit like garden gnomes...................now I wonder if they had an affair.....ummm

I wonder if Big Ears was the secret love child and Father of The Garden Gnomes..

I wonder if Noddy knows, I think I will tell him at bed-time

[Morgul Queen]

This begs the interesting question of what really happened to Glorfindel? We are told that he got dragged of a cliff by the hair, but what kind of idiot would you be to leave your hair out in battle? 'Tis far more likely that the balrog's flames set him alight, blowing up both Glorfindel and the cliff he was standing on.

[narfforc]

Would that be a case of: Hair today, gone tomorrow; and did Cliff survive the battle.

[davem]

Re the resurrected Glorfindel: we know that when Frodo looks back from the Ford he see Glorfindel as a being of 'shining light'. At this point G. is clearly on fire with the excitement. Yet, he appears later at the Council. There seems only one possible explanation for his survival - he fell into the Bruinen & was thereby extinguished. Tolkien doesn't give us a detailed description of Glorfindel's appearance at the council, but I think we can legitimately picture him sitting there in bandages, with smoking clothes & frizzled hair.

This, I think, is the more likely reason for Elrond's refusal to send him as part of the Fellowship (Gandalf's justification for sending M&P instead is obviously an attempt to spare G.'s blushes).

Its also quite likely that the reason only one Elf was included was the very real risk of combustion if two or more Elves were close enough together to rub against each other & start a fire, thereby warning the spies of Saruman or Sauron. Even the presence of Legolas made this danger likely. An Elf suddenly going up like a roman candle would bring the Orcs running. (As an aside, I note that one type of firework that Gandalf made was an 'Elf-candle' - this can only be accounted for by the fact that Elves were known to ignite.)

Its of course more than likely that the 'Bonfire Glade' in the Old Forest was caused not by the Hobbits of Buckland, but by wandering Elves having a picnic & spontaneously combusting during an argument over who got the last fish paste sandwich. Why the Hobbits would take responsibility for the resulting devastation is a difficult one. My own suspicion is that they wanted to look big....