Grima and the Army of Isengard

[ninja91]

In the movie of the Two Towers, there is something I am curious about. When Grima (with Saruman) first look at the Army of Isengard from a balcony on Orthanc, tears begin to fall from Grima's eyes. Does anyone know why this is?
Thank you!

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I seem to remember talking about this when the film first came out. A number of people saw it as being a horrifying moment of realisation for Grima. Seeing this bloodthirsty army and its intent to kill humans forced him to confront his own humanity.

In other words, he felt slightly guilty when he actually saw what Saruman was up to.

[Anguirel]

I like the explanation Eomer's given.

But as I recall, rather less imaginatively, PJ included it as a reference to some Nazi film where supporters wept tears of joy as they saw the armies of the Fuhrer pass by.

I don't find that nearly as interesting, though.

[Eomer of the Rohirrim]

I don't remember hearing that, Ang. But now that you bring it up...

I don't like it either. Considering Grima's real hatred of Saruman, it doesn't seem too likely that he would weep tears of joy for the wizard's near-certain victory.

[mormegil]

Allergies perhaps or the overwhelming stench of tens of thousands of orcs rising up.

So you don't believe that Grima was past feeling? If so why would he have betrayed Rohan and his former master even though he was shown mercy?

[Anguirel]

The Nazi stuff-as interpreted by Brad Douriff-

Well, Fran’s a genius, ya know? I think it was something that really came organically out the direction that we were going. I kind of hooked into that probably when he was young he was picked on, and that he really was perfect bait for Saruman the White. And was someone who could really never have the things he needed the most. So I think the idea was that this was somebody who fell into a dark hole and kind of wakes up in the middle looking at the “Triumph of the Will”. Which is really what he goes out and really looks at what Hitler saw when they did “Triumph of the Will”. This incredibly awesome horde that was about to be unleashed. Have you ever seen “Triumph of the Will”? For those of you who didn’t.. you guys should see this… this is a movie of Adolph Hitler’s Nazi Party, that did this festival every year in Nuremburg. This movie is a documentary, but it really gives you the power of this whole nation being consumed by this weird strength in each other’s numbers that was to unleash in this horrible war, and you can feel it in this movie. And the arrangement of the troops in “The Two Towers” was a purposeful rip off of this... because it was a defining moment just before WWII. And the documentary is called “Triumph of the Will” because it is the triumph of Adolf Hitler’s will.

Then again I think Brad Douriff has also been quoted as replying in a way more aligned with Eomer's subtler answer. Rumour has it Fran Walsh wanted "overjoyed Nazi" but Douriff considered "mourning human".

[alatar]

Eowyn was human.

With the waxing of Saruman Grima may rise to be a tin-plated King, but just who will his subjects/consorts/Queen be?

Sometimes just when you've gotten your wish you wish that you hadn't made one.

[Boromir88]

I actually think Brad Dourif's explanation fits better than he "felt" guilty. Looking at Grima's face he seems more awed at the army than regretting helping out Saruman.

Though in the long run the "guilty" argument works better, as we get to see (especially in the EE's) Saruman's mistreatment of Grima and his final "breaking" point. Looking over this scene, however, Grima seems more in awe and reverance to the size and "splendour" when seeing the army than anything else.

[Lalwendë]

I'm going to have to watch this again, as I'd not actually noticed it! But maybe he had a tear in his eye through fear?

Grima had betrayed his own people and now Saruman was his only 'friend', and he possibly (most likely, actually) felt afraid of him and his power. Seeing this army assembled could have brought his troubled emotions to the fore. He may have felt both awe and disgust if he was going through a moment of intense shock and fear.

I also think Alatar may be on to something suggesting that thoughts of Eowyn may have crossed his mind at that point.

[davem]

I'm reminded of this interchange between Joseph Campbell & Bill Moyers in the TV series Power of Myth:

CAMPBELL: There's another emotion associated with art, which is not of the beautiful but of the sublime. What we call monsters can be experienced as sublime. They represent powers too vast for the normal forms of life to contain them. An immense expanse of space is sublime. The Buddhists know how to achieve this effect in situating their temples, which are often up on high hills. For example, some of the temple gardens in Japan are designed so that you will first be experiencing close-in, intimate arrangements. Meanwhile, you're climbing, until suddenly you break past a screen and an expanse of horizon opens out, and somehow, with this diminishment of your own ego, your consciousness expands to an experience of the sublime.
Another mode of the sublime is of prodigious energy, force, and power. I've known a number of people who were in Central Europe during the Anglo-American saturation bombings of their cities - and several have described this inhuman experience as not only terrible but in a measure sublime.

MOYERS: I once interviewed a veteran of the Second World War. I talked to him about his experience at the Battle of the Bulge, in that bitter winter when the surprise German assault was about to succeed. I said, "As you look back on it, what was it?" And he said, "It was sublime."

I'm not sure we can attribute one or other simple emotion to Grima here. I think he actually had a kind of transcendent experience, of pure power, which simply overwhelmed him emotionally. He was suddenly confronted with his own insignificance in the face of power which he could not comprehend. It was beyond logic. He felt absolute awe & his emotions swept him away.

[alatar]

Nice post davem.

To continue my thought, here is a link to the movie script where you can find the quote, "There will be no dawn for Men." Dawn will rise for Grima. Is he now of a different, more exalted type? Is he part of the force that will reshape all of Middle Earth?

Did he just help unleash the atomic bomb?

Or did he feel some remorse, even in this moment of grandeur, for his brothers, however remotely, and for the girl that he 'loved?' Do butterflies look at those who still crawl and feel a tinge of sadness, remembering what once was?

[Sir Kohran]

I think that's because it's the first time Grima realises just how terrible Isengard has become. When Saruman first made the offer of drugging the King to him, I don't think he really thought about what the consequences of helping Saruman would be - he just wanted Eowyn, and blinded himself to the reality of what he was doing. But with Rohan weakened, Isengard built up its army, which, as we all know, was there to kill everyone in the Hornburg - including Eowyn and all the others Grima had ever known or cared for - and he's had a big hand in it. Grima realises this when he sees Saruman (who only insults or ignores him by that point) and this terrible army of Uruk Hai, but too late by then, and I think he knows that when he cries.

It's all a build-up to when he turns on Saruman at the start of ROTK (EE), when Theoden offers him a second chance, and he realises he's been on the wrong side all along. But by then,it's once again too late, and he dies a tragic, almost Shakespearean death, only killing Saruman when he might have been of some use to the Free Peoples, resulting in his death at Legolas's arrows.

[Beanamir of Gondor]

I love this argument: it was posted here once, too. In either case, that little tear brings Grima more to life than any other part of the movies. Either he's a ruthless, corrupt betrayer who weeps with joy at such a destructive force, or he's a horrified pawn, seeing what his actions have done.


Or he's just sad that his candle went out.

[Elu Ancalime]

I honestly never thought it might be Grima going back to his humanity. I guess that is sort of foreshadowing to the Scouring of the Shire, or fo rthe movie, when Grima looks likes hes about to turn around and go down the steps to the allies.

I always thought of it as something like when a father sees his kid score a touchdown; one of those proud moments. But Grima in no way would be "over" Sauruman," and he looked more like "wow" than "cool" or "crap".
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