Men……..Just like us? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Evenstar · 04-01-2003, 12:34 AM

Men: A race affected by disease and other rough aspects of Middle-earth and is weak compared with the Elves. Men are far from perfect. They sweat and can smell terrible at times, unlike the Elves. So, do you think Tolkien intended Men to be exactly the same race as us (although not as advanced, because this story was set in an age a l-o-n-g time ago.)

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 04-01-2003, 01:47 AM

Hmmmm.....I've always sort of wondered this myself. I think that maybe Tolkien did this to portray how the human race is not really fair and elegant. Or maybe it was to show how a race (humans) could survive for so long and while doing that, destroying things fiar and beautiful. It's just a thought of mine. I don't think that Tolkien intended for men to be exactly like us, but possibly he wanted to show some qualities of our race that disturbed him. What's so amazing though, is how much the human race has been put down by elves and how they've been blamed, yet they are the race (mainly) that continuously fought back the forces of Mordor and protected the free people of Middle-earth. And how men are the ones that prevail. And about the blaming on the humans, I just have to say that any elf (say, if it had been Elrond) would have refused to destroy the ring like Isildur did. Man, there I go again, rambling on.....sorry....

Meela · 04-01-2003, 06:38 AM

I assumed men were just men, like us. I agree that Tolkien may have been showing us the more disturbing parts of ourselves. Do you think perhaps the elves are there as a reminder of what we used to be like? I was thinking that perhaps Tolkien was echoing the ancient races of men, who had a stronger link with nature, perhaps. We, as modern men, are not so close to nature, and Lotr also tied in nature's destruction in the subject of Saruman and the old forests burning in the fires of industry, etc.

Rynoah, the Overly-Happy · 04-01-2003, 03:57 PM

I heard that Tolkien wrote this as a history before history, so wouldn't it make sense that the race of Men was, in fact, our own race? They look like us (two arms, two legs, two eyes, a nose, hair, a chin, a mouth with which to communicate) and they act like us. In fact, they have the same race-name as us! Why wouldn't they BE us?

[ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: Rynoah, the Overly-Happy ]

Voralphion · 04-01-2003, 05:55 PM

Quote:

They sweat and can smell terrible at times, unlike the Elves.

Who's to say that elves didn't smell bad at times too. I'm sure that elves to had to sweat to cool down,especially in those hot, humid forests, and I'm sure that they too did suffer from body odour as do humans.

04-01-2003, 06:43 PM

I was rather insulted when I read the book! But, I think Tolkien meant for Elves to be all cool and stuff. While humans were thought to be more of an inferior race to them. But since they were all going away, it sort of gave the men a chance to show their true stuff. You guys get what I mean? I'm sure Elves must smell SOMETIMES.

Rynoah, the Overly-Happy · 04-01-2003, 09:03 PM

I don't see the Elves as any better or worse than Men (or Dwarves or Hobbits for that matter). I think both races have their good and bad quirks (for example, I wouldn't want to be immortal, yet Men are easily corrupted), but that's just my opinion.

Scott · 04-01-2003, 09:36 PM

Right Rynoah, both races were seen by Iluvatar as His children (the dwarves were the oops children, which may be disheartening to some).

I think that since the mythology was supposed to be a history before history, men are set up to be the same. Obviously Tolkien would have had them been a little different since all things change with time. But maybe the fact that they really only changed their ways and habits very little was a point he was trying to make (like, look how far we haven't come after all of this time).

And, by the way, like women, Elves don't sweat, they either perspire or glisten. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie · 04-02-2003, 01:15 AM

Quote:

Do you think perhaps the elves are there as a reminder of what we used to be like?

That's a very interesting thought Meela. Possibly, but we'll never know for sure, which is sort of depressing, but oh well...

Quote:

I think both races have their good and bad quirks

Yeah, that's right Rynoah, for one, the elves are very cocky.

Quote:

both races were seen by Iluvatar as His children (the dwarves were the oops children, which may be disheartening to some).

And that's very true also Scott. Parents love their children equally. They have no favorites. And even if a child has a handicap, or didn't turn out quite right, there is always that unconditional love. A retarded daughter would recieve just as much love as a ormal son. So, even if teh dwarves were seen as the freak child, they were still just as special as the other children, and just as equal.

Birdland · 04-02-2003, 01:19 AM

Yes Scott. It's a well-known fact that Orcs sweat, Men perspire, and Elves glow!

As for Hobbits: since they didn't wear shoes, they were spared the embarrassment of chronic foot odor.

As for your original question, Da Evenstar - Yes, since Tolkien styled M-E as a kind of pre-history, then the Men of Arda were supposedly our ancestors. It's interesting that Tolkien portrayed the Numenoreans as being a race of giants, since some "alternative" archaeologists today argue that such a race of giants did exist. In fact, they lived in Ohio! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

Gee, it's nice to know that Tolkien's race of Men turned out to be a bunch of Buckeyes.

GlingleglingleglingleFairy · 04-06-2003, 02:58 AM

I think Tolkien's men are meant to be us, after all we're only human and so are they. Elves are almost what people would want to be if they could have everything (beauty, strength and immortality). Men are much more fallible yet we are not worth less than the elves, there is death, the Gift of men that the Elves (save a few) can't have.

Phervasaion · 04-06-2003, 07:25 AM

I agree with Rynoah. I think all races have their weak point, like Dwarves are a bit too geedy, Men like to have a lot of power and Elves seem too think they are superior to evry other race when i think they are not. But i think Tolkien was portraying men in middle earth too men today because i think we are alot like them. But remember not all men in the book were greedy and desired power for some men like Aragorn and Faramir were almost the opposite.

[ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Phervasaion ]

Cherie Centaur · 04-06-2003, 07:52 AM

Amen, Phervasaion. I was waiting for someone to point out that not
all men are evil. I was starting to worry about the others with their doom and gloom about the human race! Thanks.

Cherie Centaur · 04-06-2003, 07:54 AM

Oh to answer the question, yes they are like us. And also there are good and bad people in Middle-earth as well as in our time.

04-01-2003, 12:34 AM	#1
The Evenstar Wight Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Rivendell Posts: 103	Men……..Just like us? Men: A race affected by disease and other rough aspects of Middle-earth and is weak compared with the Elves. Men are far from perfect. They sweat and can smell terrible at times, unlike the Elves. So, do you think Tolkien intended Men to be exactly the same race as us (although not as advanced, because this story was set in an age a l-o-n-g time ago.) __________________ "The love of the Elves for their land and their works is deeper than the deeps of the sea." - Galadriel

04-01-2003, 01:47 AM	#2
MLD-Grounds-Keeper-Willie Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: San Francisco Posts: 573	Hmmmm.....I've always sort of wondered this myself. I think that maybe Tolkien did this to portray how the human race is not really fair and elegant. Or maybe it was to show how a race (humans) could survive for so long and while doing that, destroying things fiar and beautiful. It's just a thought of mine. I don't think that Tolkien intended for men to be exactly like us, but possibly he wanted to show some qualities of our race that disturbed him. What's so amazing though, is how much the human race has been put down by elves and how they've been blamed, yet they are the race (mainly) that continuously fought back the forces of Mordor and protected the free people of Middle-earth. And how men are the ones that prevail. And about the blaming on the humans, I just have to say that any elf (say, if it had been Elrond) would have refused to destroy the ring like Isildur did. Man, there I go again, rambling on.....sorry.... __________________ Do Not Touch -Willie

04-01-2003, 06:38 AM	#3
Meela Denethor's True Love Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mirkwood. With Thranduil... swoon Posts: 2,049	I assumed men were just men, like us. I agree that Tolkien may have been showing us the more disturbing parts of ourselves. Do you think perhaps the elves are there as a reminder of what we used to be like? I was thinking that perhaps Tolkien was echoing the ancient races of men, who had a stronger link with nature, perhaps. We, as modern men, are not so close to nature, and Lotr also tied in nature's destruction in the subject of Saruman and the old forests burning in the fires of industry, etc. __________________ 'The Hobbit' 1st impressions: 1. Thorin is hot... Oh god, I fancy a dwarf. 2. Thranduil is hotter. 3. Is that... Figwit! 4. Does Elijah Wood never age? 2nd: It's all about Fili & Kili, really. 3rd: BARD! OMG, Bard.

04-01-2003, 03:57 PM	#4
Rynoah, the Overly-Happy Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 474	I heard that Tolkien wrote this as a history before history, so wouldn't it make sense that the race of Men was, in fact, our own race? They look like us (two arms, two legs, two eyes, a nose, hair, a chin, a mouth with which to communicate) and they act like us. In fact, they have the same race-name as us! Why wouldn't they BE us? [ April 01, 2003: Message edited by: Rynoah, the Overly-Happy ] __________________ Spook the spook of spookish spookdom to spook the spooked spookers. ?!?! This isn't Osgiliath! Do the wave for Boromir the Disco King! Eat squid for Boromir the Disco King!

04-01-2003, 09:03 PM	#7
Rynoah, the Overly-Happy Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Arizona Posts: 474	I don't see the Elves as any better or worse than Men (or Dwarves or Hobbits for that matter). I think both races have their good and bad quirks (for example, I wouldn't want to be immortal, yet Men are easily corrupted), but that's just my opinion. __________________ Spook the spook of spookish spookdom to spook the spooked spookers. ?!?! This isn't Osgiliath! Do the wave for Boromir the Disco King! Eat squid for Boromir the Disco King!

04-01-2003, 06:43 PM	#6
Queen_Of_The_Elves Guest Posts: n/a	I was rather insulted when I read the book! But, I think Tolkien meant for Elves to be all cool and stuff. While humans were thought to be more of an inferior race to them. But since they were all going away, it sort of gave the men a chance to show their true stuff. You guys get what I mean? I'm sure Elves must smell SOMETIMES.

04-01-2003, 09:36 PM	#8
Scott Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Ohio/Grey Havens Posts: 183	Right Rynoah, both races were seen by Iluvatar as His children (the dwarves were the oops children, which may be disheartening to some). I think that since the mythology was supposed to be a history before history, men are set up to be the same. Obviously Tolkien would have had them been a little different since all things change with time. But maybe the fact that they really only changed their ways and habits very little was a point he was trying to make (like, look how far we haven't come after all of this time). And, by the way, like women, Elves don't sweat, they either perspire or glisten. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ Those who the Gods would destroy, They first make mad. ~Those Crazy Greeks

04-02-2003, 01:19 AM	#10
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	Yes Scott. It's a well-known fact that Orcs sweat, Men perspire, and Elves glow! As for Hobbits: since they didn't wear shoes, they were spared the embarrassment of chronic foot odor. As for your original question, Da Evenstar - Yes, since Tolkien styled M-E as a kind of pre-history, then the Men of Arda were supposedly our ancestors. It's interesting that Tolkien portrayed the Numenoreans as being a race of giants, since some "alternative" archaeologists today argue that such a race of giants did exist. In fact, they lived in Ohio! [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] Gee, it's nice to know that Tolkien's race of Men turned out to be a bunch of Buckeyes.

04-06-2003, 02:58 AM	#11
GlingleglingleglingleFairy Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 35	I think Tolkien's men are meant to be us, after all we're only human and so are they. Elves are almost what people would want to be if they could have everything (beauty, strength and immortality). Men are much more fallible yet we are not worth less than the elves, there is death, the Gift of men that the Elves (save a few) can't have. __________________ "Many that live deserve death, and some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Do not be to eager to deal out death in judgement, even the very wisest cannot forsee all ends." Some people prefer cupcakes. I for one care less for them.

04-06-2003, 07:25 AM	#12
Phervasaion Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: The wilderness of Middle-Earth Posts: 306	I agree with Rynoah. I think all races have their weak point, like Dwarves are a bit too geedy, Men like to have a lot of power and Elves seem too think they are superior to evry other race when i think they are not. But i think Tolkien was portraying men in middle earth too men today because i think we are alot like them. But remember not all men in the book were greedy and desired power for some men like Aragorn and Faramir were almost the opposite. [ April 06, 2003: Message edited by: Phervasaion ] __________________ Phervasaion

04-06-2003, 07:52 AM	#13
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	Amen, Phervasaion. I was waiting for someone to point out that not all men are evil. I was starting to worry about the others with their doom and gloom about the human race! Thanks. __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.

04-06-2003, 07:54 AM	#14
Cherie Centaur Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cottage Cheese near the Gap Posts: 95	Oh to answer the question, yes they are like us. And also there are good and bad people in Middle-earth as well as in our time. __________________ Why do we let the monkey slide for popping the weasel? Just because he thought it was fun? Guys, we're dealing with a psycho.