Good guys of LOTR clueless?

[The Saucepan Man]

I do not seem to recall that there were other rings besides those (at least magic rings made by the Elves in Eregion). Do you or anyone else has any proof to the contrary, that there could be other lesser rings which didn't have gems in them that could have the similar description as Sauron's ring?

Yes.

Gandalf, from The Shadow of the Past:

"In Eregion long ago many Elven-rings were made, magic rings as you call them, and they were, of course, of various kinds: some more potent and some less. The lesser rings were only essays in the craft before it was full-grown, and to the Elven-smiths they were but trifles - yet still to my mind dangerous for mortals. But the Great Rings, the Rings of Power, they were perilous."

So, there were many rings made, in addition to the 20 that are referred to as the Rings of Power. And the fact that Bilbo's Ring conferred the power of invisibility (and caused him to lie concerning the circumstances of its discovery) did not mean that it could not be a lesser ring, since lesser rings were still powerful as far as mortals are concerned. So I would say that vastly narrows the odds of Bilbo's Ring being the One Ring from 7/1.

The difference is that while Eru can see the events from an outside perspective (being God) he probably knows that the things that will happen there will be readressed at a later time eg. Arda remade.

Surely that makes him all the more incompetent. He could see that much suffering would take place and yet did not take early action to prevent this, despite clearly having the power to do so. Gandalf, however did not have the luxury of seeing things from the "outside perspective". If he had had that luxury, no doubt he would have acted differently.

[Maédhros]

So, there were many rings made, in addition to the 20 that are referred to as the Rings of Power. And the fact that Bilbo's Ring conferred the power of invisibility (and caused him to lie concerning the circumstances of its discovery) did not mean that it could not be a lesser ring, since lesser rings were still powerful as far as mortals are concerned. So I would say that vastly narrows the odds of Bilbo's Ring being the One Ring from 7/1.

I have seen that before, but my question is, can you be absolutely certain that the many doesn't mean the 19 that the elves made?
Is there any reference elsewhere that mentions a Ring made by elves of Eregion which were not those used by the dwarves, men and elves? I haven't seen it.

Surely that makes him all the more incompetent. He could see that much suffering would take place and yet did not take early action to prevent this, despite clearly having the power to do so. Gandalf, however did not have the luxury of seeing things from the "outside perspective". If he had had that luxury, no doubt he would have acted differently.

It is interesting in trying to secong guess god. My argument for his sake is the one that I see in the Ainulindalë that all of the things that Melkor did would be redress in Arda remade and that world would be better than Arda unmarred. I would guess that God would know that the suffering in that time was for the making of a greater world.
Of course Gandalf being inside ME would have no such concept. The question that arises is that if Gandalf could have made the "good guys" beat Sauron 50 years earlier would he have done it?

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

I have seen that before, but my question is, can you be absolutely certain that the many doesn't mean the 19 that the elves made?
Is there any reference elsewhere that mentions a Ring made by elves of Eregion which were not those used by the dwarves, men and elves? I haven't seen it.

There's of course this by now famouts quote, you yourself posted on page 1:

"The Nine, the Seven, and the Three," he said, "had each their proper gem. Not so the One. It was round and unadorned, as it were one of the lesser rings; but its maker set marks upon it that the skilled, maybe, could still see and read."

As we know, that the Rings of Power had gems, the passage about 'lesser rings' was not referring to those (although they were lesser in power than the One). If not referring to the other 19 Rings of Power, the phrase refers to other lesser rings. Taken together with the quote The Saucepan Man posted, I think there's evidence enough for the existence of unadorned rings, which had some kind of power, but were not Rings of Power.

[The Saucepan Man]

I have seen that before, but my question is, can you be absolutely certain that the many doesn't mean the 19 that the elves made?

Yes. There can be no doubt about it. Both the passage that Earendilyon quoted and that which I quoted distinguish the lesser rings, which Gandalf describes as trifles for Elves but dangerous to mortals, from the twenty Rings of Power, ie the Three, the Seven, the Nine plus the One Ring, which he describes as perilous. It is clear from this that the Elf-smiths of Eregion created rings other than the Rings of Power. And the word "many" combined with the reference to them being "essays in ring craft" strongly suggests to me that there were quite a number of these lesser rings.

[Maédhros]

Yes. There can be no doubt about it. Both the passage that Earendilyon quoted and that which I quoted distinguish the lesser rings, which Gandalf describes as trifles for Elves but dangerous to mortals, from the twenty Rings of Power, ie the Three, the Seven, the Nine plus the One Ring, which he describes as perilous. It is clear from this that the Elf-smiths of Eregion created rings other than the Rings of Power. And the word "many" combined with the reference to them being "essays in ring craft" strongly suggests to me that there were quite a number of these lesser rings.

Yes, I have to agree with that. I thank you for showing me that. Nevertheless, this same fact make the good guys all the more incompetent.
Consider:

1. Gandalf felt uneasy about Bilbo's ring.
2. Gandalf knew that both rings had similar descriptions 11 years after Bilbo returned to the Shire in the White council discussion.
3. Gandalf while in that council mistrusted Saruman as to not tell him about Bilbo's ring but was satisfied about his conclusions that the ring could not be found.
4. In a world where gut feelings are as important of more important than common sense then was Gandalf not following his feeling odd?
5. If they were m lesser rings, what was the probability that Bilbo's ring was Sauron's? P=1/(m+1). Where m = the amount of total lesser rings. If m is big number, then the probability decreases.

With all those facts, do you really think that it deserved an investigation?

Lets look at what Gandalf did. He thought that m was a big number so that the probability of Bilbo's ring being Sauron's was almost nil.

It is in the year 3001 TA that Gandalf suspects that Bilbo's ring can be that of Sauron. What if Bilbo's ring turned out not to be that of Sauron, what could the good guys have done to defeat Sauron at so late a date in the TA? What was the plan? Did they even have any?
Could they overthrow Sauron by force of Arms? No.
What in Gods name would they have done if they had not found the One Ring?

[symestreem]

Originally Posted by Maédhros

4. In a world where gut feelings are as important of more important than common sense then was Gandalf not following his feeling odd?

Can you elaborate on this?

It is in the year 3001 TA that Gandalf suspects that Bilbo's ring can be that of Sauron. What if Bilbo's ring turned out not to be that of Sauron, what could the good guys have done to defeat Sauron at so late a date in the TA? What was the plan? Did they even have any?
Could they overthrow Sauron by force of Arms? No.

There was no reason to believe that the One Ring had not washed out to sea until Gandalf noticed Bilbo's ring. Remember, Sauron in the form of the Necromancer had just suffered another defeat, one which would not have been possible if he had the One Ring. At this point, there was no reason to believe Sauron would return. He needed the ring for that, and the ring was lost.
Besides, even if Sauron had gotten the ring, he had been defeated with it before. True, more elves, larger armies, etc.

[Kuruharan]

4. In a world where gut feelings are as important of more important than common sense then was Gandalf not following his feeling odd?

I, along with symestreem, would like some clarification on why this is so.

There was no reason to believe that the One Ring had not washed out to see until Gandalf noticed Bilbo's ring. Remember, Sauron in the form of the Necromancer had just suffered another defeat, one which would not have been possible if he had the One Ring. At this point, there was no reason to believe Sauron would return. He needed the ring for that, and the ring was lost.

While I agree with the gist of symestreem’s statement, I feel that it should be acknowledged that Sauron did flee of his own accord. However, there was no way that the Wise could know this. They only had enough information to judge the matter on face value.

It is in the year 3001 TA that Gandalf suspects that Bilbo's ring can be that of Sauron. What if Bilbo's ring turned out not to be that of Sauron, what could the good guys have done to defeat Sauron at so late a date in the TA? What was the plan? Did they even have any?
Could they overthrow Sauron by force of Arms? No.
What in Gods name would they have done if they had not found the One Ring?

They would probably have conducted a nasty protracted defensive war. Weird things happen when the real gut-splitting and axe-smacking start. As was actually seen, the forces of Good were quite capable of inflicting devastating defeats on Sauron’s armies. They may have forced Sauron to draw off for a time.

But, aside from this, the Wise (and Gandalf in particular) demonstrated their competence by recognizing what to do with the Ring when they had it and by doing their best to see it through. Gandalf admitted that he made mistakes but that does not mean that he was incapable of the task at hand. Very few people can accomplish anything without making mistakes of some sort.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

So once again, it seems Galadriel makes a false claim.

No one, not even one of the Valar, can read the mind of other 'equal beings'

I have to stand up for Galadriel now.
Why would Galadriel had lied she can read some thoughts of Sauron? Maybe to comfort Frodo by making him believe that she knows, what she's doing and Lorien doesn't fall yet. But I don't believe that. Actually, I claim that the quote from Morgoth's Ring (myths transformed, VII, ii) doesn't tell the absolute truth at all (like Legolas already said).
For lo and behold! The Return of the King: book 6: Many Partings:

For they (Celeborn, Galadriel, Elrond and Gandalf) did not move or speak with mouth, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.

Some people can read many things from other people's faces but not a whole conversation!

In the book it's stated that they (again Celeborn & others) talked about "all the ages that were gone" or they held council concerning next days. Well, I'd think that there was some mind reading involved.

[Aiwendil]

Dancing Spawn of Ungoliant wrote:

In the book it's stated that they (again Celeborn & others) talked about "all the ages that were gone" or they held council concerning next days. Well, I'd think that there was some mind reading involved.

This is "Osanwe-kenta", discussed in an essay published in one of the Vinyar Tengwars. I think it fits quite well with the account of fear given in Morgoth's Ring. The trick with Osanwe is that each party opens his or her mind willingly.

But as for Galadriel reading Sauron's thought - I don't think we need to doubt this. The quote from HoMe X to the effect that no one can read another person's mind is a technical point. One fea cannot simply overwhelm another and read its thought. But real characters read each other's thoughts all the time. One can listen to another's words, watch another's facial expressions, listen to one's tone of voice, etc. So it is certainly not fundamentally impossible for one person to come to understand another's thoughts. The Rings put Galadriel and Sauron in a sort of constant contact; it is no wonder then that they might be able to discern certain things about each other. What Galadriel could not do is to overwhelm Sauron and obtain direct access to his spirit itself.

[Alchisiel]

This has been a very interesting thread. I've enjoyed it reading very much. I don't post very often but I feel compelled to.

It has been said that the Elves and the people of Gondor/Arnor didn't look hard enough to find Isildur's body. As far as I've seen no one here has taken into consideration the river's currents. Most large rivers do have an under current which could have made the finding of the body pretty difficult especially when you also take into consideration that the search parties probably would have been under fire. Another thing to consider is what was used to search the river. It's not like they had scuba gear back then. How many times have we heard of bodies washing ashore? I know in my area just last year we had two gentlemen fall overboard and there bodies were not found until at least six months later when their bodies washed ashore. The under currents would also have made the finding of the ring nearly impossible. I know I lost a locket in my teens and didn't find it until my mother was raking leaves the next year. A locket is a bit bigger than a ring and there wasn't any water washing it away.

[Findegil]

Maybe we should also consider an other point: Elrond and Círdan how undoubtably would have been the leading intelegenc for any search had just had an example of what happend to anybody who took that ring in his hands.
If we consider a council of the wise after the desater of Gladden Fileds, whom could they trust to search for the Ring and bring it back to them if it was found? As has been pointed out before, to have some chance of success such a search would have required a lot of men or elves. What could they tell them? "We would like to find the dead body of the King because he was such a great hero?" Okay, but that wouldn't help them. Isildur lost the Ring before he was killed and fell into the stream. I ever thought that the Wise from what they found and know (Isildurs gear east of the river, that he had worn the Ring during his flight, the places of the orc-archers west of the river, Isildur himself not returning) guessed that either Isildur lost the Ring in the river or he was killed with the Ring on his finger. To search for the Ring alone seems an hopeless undergoing. It is not even sure ift the ground of the river could be reached by diving in any spout. And even if so, it was a mudy ground. How would you search that? By gropping through it all along the river from were Isildur jumped in through the Gladdenfields? And to search for Isildur if he had worn the Ring still? Well how could you find him? He was invisible still if he had worne the Ring? A dead body invisble und probably underwater at least lying on the ground (so no shadow to see him). A search for that would require a very special force consisting of high-elves only which could see in both worlds at once. How many of this were available?
And than again: What if one of the searchers would have found the Ring? How could they be sure he would not have done the same as Isildur - taken the Ring to be his own? On the other hand, they considered Sauron to be dead. And as long as the Ring was lost, they could use their own Rings to bring healing to terribly hurt world of Middle-Earth with out any risc. They might be acused to be to short sighted or to take the easiest course they had, but that is quiet diffrent from being clueless.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Angry Hill Troll]

On a point discussed much earlier in this thread, Tolkien actually does say that Sauron was stupid, at least in a certain sense of the word:

Gandalf he [Sauron] did not understand. But certainly he had become evil, and therefore stupid, enough to imagine that his different behavior [of Gandalf compared to Sauron and Saruman] was due simply to weaker intelligence and lack of firm masterful purpose. [emphasis mine]

Morgoth's Ring: Myths Transformed, Text VII

"Stupid" in this context doesn't mean unintelligent, but rather being unable to make sound judgement: "Stupid is as stupid does," as Forrest Gump would say.

On Galadriel's statement that she knew Sauron's mind, well, his thought process isn't that complicated:

-I hate the elves.
-I hate the Numenorians.
-I want everything and everybody to do as I say.
-I want my Ring back!

Also, Sauron was just playing the part (of Dark Lord) invented by Morgoth. So really, he's just an actor interpreting a role first played by someone else (whose performance Galadriel had in fact witnessed)

[gorthaur_cruel]

Sorry to top an old thread, but I discovered something new. Until now, I believed that Gandalf's actions were perfectly justified in not seeking the truth about Bilbo's ring. I assumed that he believed it to be one of the lesser rings, which is totally acceptable. However, Gandalf knew that Bilbo's ring was one of the twenty Rings of Power.

"I wondered often how Gollum came by a Great Ring, as plainly it was - that at least was clear from the first."

We know that "Great Ring" is another name for "Ring of Power", the twenty famous ones. Now, shouldn't Gandalf have been "professionally interested" and wondered which ring this was? He also said that the Rings of Power were perilous to mortals, so he should've felt anxiety for Bilbo. Anyway, he knew that it was not one of the Three or Nine, and most likely not one of the Seven. By pondering this, he should've remembered that only the One Ring (out of the Great Rings) had no mark. Thus, he should've figured out that Bilbo had Sauron's precious decades before he did in LotR. Heck, if I had Gandalf's knowledge, even I would have. He knew it was a Ring of Power...that alone should be reason enough for Gandalf to investigate it, shouldn't it?

[Morsul the Dark]

But he asked Saruman and Saruman just patted him on the head and said "look the little wizard thinks he knows rings" (ok maybe not like that...) But Saruman did kind of disuade him fom pursuing the thought so it wasnt until later Gandalf said that it was worth more than saruman would let on.

[Kuruharan]

gorthaur_cruel

Since “investigating” the Ring would probably have involved making inquiries to Saruman, perhaps it was just best that things turned out as they did.

Note the end of the paragraph you cited.

[Elu Ancalime]

Gandalf might have been on to something, but i think he jumped the gun. Surely Sauron must have had an idea of howthe Ring affected his power, because he experianced it, obviously...but since he had been defeated and taken a new shape so many times, he might have over seen it. Its like he was doubting his own power, which would give Sauruman the biggest evil ego.() However, with this, two more possibilities:

1) Sauron 's ego surpassed his sense, because of draining all the armies in Mordor for the Black Gate battle, and he set no guard on Orudruin.

2) He didnt think the Ring would be destroyed in Mt Doom anyway. He must have thought the Ring was going to Gondor, so its approaching towards the South was no surprise. However, Ssm used it at Cirith Ungol, which is definatly the senic route to Minas Tirith, and then a line from Return of the King said something like this in the CHapter 'Mt Doom.'

And then he understood the devices of his enemy, and all the plots were made bare to him...something like that.

So from that he must have known he was pretty much a goner. But then, either he knew he was dead because :

A) He thought about the Ring and the possibility of its vulnerability in Mt Doom, and when the Ring was used there he must have understood it was true, so his nagging feeling in the back of his...Eye...was right, so it agrees with 2).

B) He knew it all along, so it agrees with 1).


So Gandalf might have just said it in the quick and dirty way, so as not to generate this kind of disscusion which whould have triggered his ADHD and forgotten what the keck he was doin'.
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