A question for multilingual fans. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Fingolas · 03-03-2002, 10:11 AM

I am curious as to how well Tolkiens work translates into other languages.

Other than my native English, (which has been known to give me trouble on occasion), I speak just enough Spanish to get me into trouble.

It occurs to me that Tolkiens style of writing, (what I have always referred to as Classic English, although I’m sure that is not accurate, British friends help me out here&#8230 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], may not translate into other languages very well. That is, the shadings, the subtleties and unspoken meanings that someone from Britain who has a tradition with this style of English would understand more readily than someone from another culture. I know that as an American, I ran across a few poems and songs that I had to read twice in order to get the full meaning.

I’m just curious to hear from those who speak and read in several languages. Have you read Tolkien in English and your native language? Notice any differences?

Nilaraniel · 03-03-2002, 07:34 PM

I am a native English speaker, but I am learning German. I have been looking for LOTR in German, Herr der Ringe, just to translate parts for fun. (The movie poster is sweet!)Here
I guess I havn't been looking in the right places cause I can't find one for sale in the US! All are in Europe. :-p
If I ever get my hands on it I will post some literal translations.

Nilaraniel

Lush · 03-03-2002, 08:17 PM

English is my second language, though you wouldn't know it if you ran into me on the street (in America). I have not attempted to read Tolkien in Russian (my native language), but from what I hear, at least that translation is pretty good, apparently.

03-04-2002, 05:49 AM

huhu.
i'm from germany, and my first time through LotR was in german. afterwards i noticed that i'm quite able to understand the english version... that's why all the other Tolkien books i own are in english (i prefer reading books in english... helps me learning the language -> better marks in school [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]).
this might be important to Nilaraniel:
there are two german translations around: the old one by Margaret Carroux and a very new one, translated by Wolfgang Krege. BY ALL MEANS, avoid Krege (his LotR at least. his translation of the Silmarillion is said to be well done). Carroux was able to talk to Tolkien when he still lived, and her translation is pretty good. it was his idea, for example, that the Elves are called "Elben" and not "Elfen" in german. i don't really know why, but he said he liked the sound of "Elb" more that "Elf" (why he didn't change the english word for it, i dunno).
and on to Mr. Krege. for some abstruse reason, he tried to modernize the language. it's AWFUL to read... Sam keeps on calling Frodo "chef" instead of "Herr" (Master, Lord) and they adress each other with "du" or "sie" insead of "ihr" ("ihr" is older, and more respectful) there is much more, i could go on for hours... it just destroys the atmosphere...

in the end, i think no translation can really live up to the original. a bit of the magic is always lost... (that's another reason why i'm reading the books in english)
but the old translation is pretty decent.

i could send you the Hobbit in German as a txt file, and maybe i find LotR, too.
my email is t.strenzke@gmx.de

[ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Thranic ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-04-2002, 07:50 AM

Hi, Thranic!
I've been living in Germany for years, but am an American and first read LotR in English. I agree that it's best to read a book in its original language, so I haven't read the German translations. I'm afraid of being disappointed! I have, however, heard the radio play that was done by the WDR etc., which is excellent. It is based on the older translation. I have bought the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales in English; I was happy to find a bookstore that had them on stock here!
So, Fingolas, I can't really compare them - the opinions I've heard on the difference between the old and the new German translation are similar to what Thranic has stated.

Eärendil · 03-04-2002, 12:33 PM

I am from Sweden, and have read the books in Swedish only (though, I am always searching for the books in English, and have read bits of them), and....... Well, frankly speaking, most of the translation is crap really. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] It´s the translators fault, as he (obviously) wanted to add his "own atmosphere" to the books. So he changed some things, which he thought sounded better..... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] And so on and so on....
I can stand it (but I get annoyed quite often), though....I want a new translation!

Banazîr · 03-04-2002, 06:10 PM

I'm french canadian so I've read it in french many times, I bought the english version because I believe it to be the best, it's obvious. I don't perfectly know the english language and Tolkien's writings are kinda hard to understand.
The french version is great except but for a few annoying mistakes and the names' translations. I have heard that Tolkien himself decided what were going to be the names of his characters in french, for example, Frodo Baggins becomes Frodon Sacquet, Hobbiton; Hobbitbourg, etc.
The places are also renamed and that's really annoying because I get all mix up.
I bought the Lost tales 1 and 2 and they were translated to french by someone called Adam Tolkien that I believe to be his grandson(or son?) so I really trust his translation.

Niphredil Baggins · 03-05-2002, 08:07 AM

I'm Finnish, and I study English philology. The Finnish translations are quite as good as they only can be, except for the first translation of The Hobbit, which is hilarious, because they translated it as a children's book - all the names are different and so on.

Elven-Maiden · 03-05-2002, 05:37 PM

I'm Canadian, and my mother language is English, but I'm fluent in French. Don't worry, Banazir, I don't pretend it's thanks to the Core French program in schools in Ontario.... Do you know where I could get a French copy of LotR? None of our local bookstores will carry it.

Gabo Darvas · 03-06-2002, 07:20 AM

I'm Hungarian and I've read LOTR in my native language in the translation of Árpád Göncz and some parts of the book in English.

Göncz's translation is very ambitious it retains original spirit and it's faithful to Tolkien's language so it's valid, I think. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Gabo Darvas ]

Elenglin · 03-06-2002, 12:45 PM

I'm Finnish also, so I've read all the books in Finnish. I'd like to read atleast The Hobbit on english.
When I've learned Swedish enough (We MUST read Swedish in school!!! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] ) I _really_ want to read The Hobbit also in swedish [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Melian · 03-08-2002, 08:06 AM

Hi! My native language is Spanish. I haven´t read the books in english, though I think it would be the right thing to do... Despite the fact that translations take some of the "magic" from the original writing, I enjoy the books very much!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]
One thing I don´t like is when they change the names, for example Strider is called "Trancos"... owful, isn´t it? How do translators called our heroes in your native languages?

the_master_of_puppets · 03-09-2002, 07:29 AM

is it difficult for non-brittish english speakers to get Tolkien's way of writing? I never thought of that... i wouldnt have thought it wouldnt have been any easier 4 us native Brits coz we dont talk like that anymore (obviously).

Estelyn Telcontar · 03-09-2002, 06:31 PM

Melian, there are some of the names and places in foreign languages on the "Translations" thread, this same forum. Enjoy! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Pips · 03-09-2002, 06:40 PM

I live in Texas, but i read the English novels my mum has from the 40s when they were first published. I read some to one of my classes as a project and everyone (In the Texas class) was like "what the hell are you reading!?" It was rather fun, I'm the only person I know in my college that speaks with a british accent and people stare at me. Ofcourse, they have no culture here, so no wonder they didn't understand it.

Kalimac · 03-09-2002, 06:58 PM

I never found Tolkien's writing particularly difficult to understand (I'm speaking as an American who's been to England for all of a month). But my parents are literary anglophiles in a way; I only realized recently that about 80% of the English-language books we have were written by British authors, and many of them are from the '30s and '40s. So I got pretty used to understanding the expressions, if not using them in my own speech (though I have puzzled people occasionally with "that throws a spanner in things"). When I say braces, boot and jumper to people, though, I'm using the American meanings [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img].

Nilaraniel · 03-09-2002, 11:20 PM

I live in south Georgia (!!), and didn't find it hard at all to read LOTR. There were a couple of words that I had to look up, but they just havn't been used in years.

But I'm used to reading lots of Shakespeare, Canterbury Tales, Beowulf, and more recent books written in the English we don't speak anymore. I always got aggrevated in school when the teacher would make us read Shakespeare in class because NOBODY understood it. She'd make us put pieces into modern language and I was the only one that could do it. :-p Of course then people laughed at me cause I was smart I guess. Oh well, geeks rule the world. ;-) I can't wait to get my hands on Silmarillion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Nila

03-03-2002, 10:11 AM	#1
Fingolas Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: behind that tree over there Posts: 32	A question for multilingual fans. I am curious as to how well Tolkiens work translates into other languages. Other than my native English, (which has been known to give me trouble on occasion), I speak just enough Spanish to get me into trouble. It occurs to me that Tolkiens style of writing, (what I have always referred to as Classic English, although I’m sure that is not accurate, British friends help me out here&#8230 [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img], may not translate into other languages very well. That is, the shadings, the subtleties and unspoken meanings that someone from Britain who has a tradition with this style of English would understand more readily than someone from another culture. I know that as an American, I ran across a few poems and songs that I had to read twice in order to get the full meaning. I’m just curious to hear from those who speak and read in several languages. Have you read Tolkien in English and your native language? Notice any differences? __________________ It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.

03-03-2002, 07:34 PM	#2
Nilaraniel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 30	I am a native English speaker, but I am learning German. I have been looking for LOTR in German, Herr der Ringe, just to translate parts for fun. (The movie poster is sweet!)Here I guess I havn't been looking in the right places cause I can't find one for sale in the US! All are in Europe. :-p If I ever get my hands on it I will post some literal translations. Nilaraniel __________________ AIM: nilaraniel

03-03-2002, 08:17 PM	#3
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	English is my second language, though you wouldn't know it if you ran into me on the street (in America). I have not attempted to read Tolkien in Russian (my native language), but from what I hear, at least that translation is pretty good, apparently. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

03-04-2002, 07:50 AM	#5
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Hi, Thranic! I've been living in Germany for years, but am an American and first read LotR in English. I agree that it's best to read a book in its original language, so I haven't read the German translations. I'm afraid of being disappointed! I have, however, heard the radio play that was done by the WDR etc., which is excellent. It is based on the older translation. I have bought the Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales in English; I was happy to find a bookstore that had them on stock here! So, Fingolas, I can't really compare them - the opinions I've heard on the difference between the old and the new German translation are similar to what Thranic has stated. __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-04-2002, 12:33 PM	#6
Eärendil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Valinor (RtL: 1220 miles) Posts: 562	I am from Sweden, and have read the books in Swedish only (though, I am always searching for the books in English, and have read bits of them), and....... Well, frankly speaking, most of the translation is crap really. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] It´s the translators fault, as he (obviously) wanted to add his "own atmosphere" to the books. So he changed some things, which he thought sounded better..... [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] And so on and so on.... I can stand it (but I get annoyed quite often), though....I want a new translation! __________________ Jag ska aldrig göra dig illa. Inte igen. Åtminstone inte mycket, åtminstone inte hårt. Kommer du ihåg? Då vi fortfarande kunde skratta, le på ett äkta vis. Jag tänker på det ibland. Det smärtar. För aldrig har du väl varit. Längre bort. Från mig.

03-04-2002, 05:49 AM	#4
Thranic Guest Posts: n/a	huhu. i'm from germany, and my first time through LotR was in german. afterwards i noticed that i'm quite able to understand the english version... that's why all the other Tolkien books i own are in english (i prefer reading books in english... helps me learning the language -> better marks in school [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]). this might be important to Nilaraniel: there are two german translations around: the old one by Margaret Carroux and a very new one, translated by Wolfgang Krege. BY ALL MEANS, avoid Krege (his LotR at least. his translation of the Silmarillion is said to be well done). Carroux was able to talk to Tolkien when he still lived, and her translation is pretty good. it was his idea, for example, that the Elves are called "Elben" and not "Elfen" in german. i don't really know why, but he said he liked the sound of "Elb" more that "Elf" (why he didn't change the english word for it, i dunno). and on to Mr. Krege. for some abstruse reason, he tried to modernize the language. it's AWFUL to read... Sam keeps on calling Frodo "chef" instead of "Herr" (Master, Lord) and they adress each other with "du" or "sie" insead of "ihr" ("ihr" is older, and more respectful) there is much more, i could go on for hours... it just destroys the atmosphere... in the end, i think no translation can really live up to the original. a bit of the magic is always lost... (that's another reason why i'm reading the books in english) but the old translation is pretty decent. i could send you the Hobbit in German as a txt file, and maybe i find LotR, too. my email is t.strenzke@gmx.de [ March 04, 2002: Message edited by: Thranic ]

03-04-2002, 06:10 PM	#7
Banazîr Pile O'Bones Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Montreal, Quebec Posts: 19	I'm french canadian so I've read it in french many times, I bought the english version because I believe it to be the best, it's obvious. I don't perfectly know the english language and Tolkien's writings are kinda hard to understand. The french version is great except but for a few annoying mistakes and the names' translations. I have heard that Tolkien himself decided what were going to be the names of his characters in french, for example, Frodo Baggins becomes Frodon Sacquet, Hobbiton; Hobbitbourg, etc. The places are also renamed and that's really annoying because I get all mix up. I bought the Lost tales 1 and 2 and they were translated to french by someone called Adam Tolkien that I believe to be his grandson(or son?) so I really trust his translation. __________________ "Baruk khâzad! Khazâd ai ménu!" "Axes of the dwarves! The Dwarves are upon you!"

03-05-2002, 08:07 AM	#8
Niphredil Baggins Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Finland Posts: 118	I'm Finnish, and I study English philology. The Finnish translations are quite as good as they only can be, except for the first translation of The Hobbit, which is hilarious, because they translated it as a children's book - all the names are different and so on. __________________ Wistful, willful, wingless, fly!

03-05-2002, 05:37 PM	#9
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	I'm Canadian, and my mother language is English, but I'm fluent in French. Don't worry, Banazir, I don't pretend it's thanks to the Core French program in schools in Ontario.... Do you know where I could get a French copy of LotR? None of our local bookstores will carry it. __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

03-06-2002, 07:20 AM	#10
Gabo Darvas Pile O'Bones Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Hungary Posts: 23	I'm Hungarian and I've read LOTR in my native language in the translation of Árpád Göncz and some parts of the book in English. Göncz's translation is very ambitious it retains original spirit and it's faithful to Tolkien's language so it's valid, I think. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] [ March 10, 2002: Message edited by: Gabo Darvas ] __________________ "...szívem gazdagabb, / Mint nyelvem: abban bizonyos vagyok."

03-06-2002, 12:45 PM	#11
Elenglin Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Helsinki, Finland Posts: 24	I'm Finnish also, so I've read all the books in Finnish. I'd like to read atleast The Hobbit on english. When I've learned Swedish enough (We MUST read Swedish in school!!! [img]smilies/mad.gif[/img] ) I _really_ want to read The Hobbit also in swedish [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ "Sinun pelloillasi on jättiläinen, suunnattoman suuri jättiläinen, ja hän on tulossa tähän suuntaan", koira sanoi. "Apua! Apua! Hän talloo jalkoihinsa sinun lampaasi. Hän on astunut Galathea-raukan päälle, ja se on lituskainen kuin kynnysmatto. Apua! Apua! Hän ruhjoo kaikki sinun pensasaitasi ja hän survoo kaiken viljasi. Sinun täytyy toimia rohkeasti ja nopeasti, isäntä, tai kohta sinulla ei ole mitään jäljellä! Apua!" Garm puhkesi ulvomaan.

03-08-2002, 08:06 AM	#12
Melian Animated Skeleton Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 27	Hi! My native language is Spanish. I haven´t read the books in english, though I think it would be the right thing to do... Despite the fact that translations take some of the "magic" from the original writing, I enjoy the books very much!!! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] One thing I don´t like is when they change the names, for example Strider is called "Trancos"... owful, isn´t it? How do translators called our heroes in your native languages? __________________ "Faithless is he that says farewell when the road darkens."

03-09-2002, 07:29 AM	#13
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	is it difficult for non-brittish english speakers to get Tolkien's way of writing? I never thought of that... i wouldnt have thought it wouldnt have been any easier 4 us native Brits coz we dont talk like that anymore (obviously).

03-09-2002, 06:31 PM	#14
Estelyn Telcontar Princess of Skwerlz Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: where the Sea is eastwards (WtR: 6060 miles) Posts: 7,500	Melian, there are some of the names and places in foreign languages on the "Translations" thread, this same forum. Enjoy! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ 'Mercy!' cried Gandalf. 'If the giving of information is to be the cure of your inquisitiveness, I shall spend all the rest of my days in answering you. What more do you want to know?' 'The whole history of Middle-earth...'

03-09-2002, 06:40 PM	#15
Pips Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brandyhall, Texas Posts: 67	I live in Texas, but i read the English novels my mum has from the 40s when they were first published. I read some to one of my classes as a project and everyone (In the Texas class) was like "what the hell are you reading!?" It was rather fun, I'm the only person I know in my college that speaks with a british accent and people stare at me. Ofcourse, they have no culture here, so no wonder they didn't understand it.

03-09-2002, 06:58 PM	#16
Kalimac Candle of the Marshes Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Flyover Country Posts: 780	I never found Tolkien's writing particularly difficult to understand (I'm speaking as an American who's been to England for all of a month). But my parents are literary anglophiles in a way; I only realized recently that about 80% of the English-language books we have were written by British authors, and many of them are from the '30s and '40s. So I got pretty used to understanding the expressions, if not using them in my own speech (though I have puzzled people occasionally with "that throws a spanner in things"). When I say braces, boot and jumper to people, though, I'm using the American meanings [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]. __________________ Father, dear Father, if you see fit, We'll send my love to college for one year yet Tie blue ribbons all about his head, To let the ladies know that he's married.

03-09-2002, 11:20 PM	#17
Nilaraniel Animated Skeleton Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Georgia, USA Posts: 30	I live in south Georgia (!!), and didn't find it hard at all to read LOTR. There were a couple of words that I had to look up, but they just havn't been used in years. But I'm used to reading lots of Shakespeare, Canterbury Tales, Beowulf, and more recent books written in the English we don't speak anymore. I always got aggrevated in school when the teacher would make us read Shakespeare in class because NOBODY understood it. She'd make us put pieces into modern language and I was the only one that could do it. :-p Of course then people laughed at me cause I was smart I guess. Oh well, geeks rule the world. ;-) I can't wait to get my hands on Silmarillion. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Nila __________________ AIM: nilaraniel