Varda&Melkor and Marriages of Valar

[Thinlómien]

This was a question I posted on the Misc. Questions thread. It seemed to get no attention (except a humorous post by Formendacil), so I decided to make a new thread.

On Valar

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Might it be that Melkor had "courted" Varda for it is said in Sil:
Quote:
From the depth of Eä she came to Manwë's help, for she knew Melkor already before the Music and rejected him, and Melkor hated her...

Then translation is mine so it's quite horrible, but I hope you get the point. The quote is from Valaquenta. Especially I would be thankful if someone could check the correct verb (I used "reject"), because it was the thing that made me wonder all this. Did valar have any romantical feelings? I've always thought that they didn't but why did they then marry? To compose a union? Why there weren't any male unions then?

And this is the quote I was talking about:

Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her...

Or does this "reject" only mean rejecting his "doctrine"?

There seemed to be no discussion like this before. Please correct me (again) if I happen to be wrong.

[Earendilyon]

Thinlómien, I quote a somewhat longer text piece of the Silm regarding Varda:

With Manwë dwells Varda, Lady of the Stars, who knows all the regions of Eä. Too great is her beauty to be declared in the words of Men or of Elves; for the light of Ilúvatar lives still in her face. In light is her power and her joy. Out of the deeps of Eä she came to the aid of Manwë; for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made.

I think especially the first part declares a lot: Varda delights in Eru's light and it lives still in her face. Melkor hated light (especially Eru's Light) and loved Darkness. I think Melkor tried to sway Varda to his side (like he did with Sauron and many other Maiar) as she was a very powerfull Vala; with her help, he thought he would certainly overcome the other Valar. This she rejected (you used the right word in your translation!); she didn't want to be part of his schemes as she delights in the opposite of what his delight is: Light vs. Darkness.

[A_Brandybuck]

In my opinion, there was more than only rejecting his 'doctrine'. Varda was not the only one, who went not with him and rejected his 'doctrine'. There were lots of other Ainur, who went with Manwë and haven't followed Melkor.
There must be another reason, that Melkor started to hate her. I mean, Tolkien mentioned only Varda in this case, consequently she must have done something, what the other Ainur have not done.

I see the reason in a special rivalry of the 'brothers in mind' Melkor and Manwë. Both are really powerful Ainu and plays some special parts in the thoughts of Eru. But both represents the opposite in the concepts, which they have. Evil versus Good.

It seems to me (I am only speculating), that both Ainur wanted Varda as spouse. But she rejected Melkor and became the spouse of Manwë. Considering the rivalry of Manwë and Melkor, this must be very hurtful for Melkor to see his chosen spouse going to his rival in mind.

That could be an explanation of the (from Tolkien) underlined hatred of Melkor against Varda. Refusing to being spouse of him and then becoming spouse of his rival can be a reason for very personal feelings and when you are assessed like Melkor, this will be manifested surely as hatred.

[Thinlómien]

Originally Posted by Earendilyon

I think Melkor tried to sway Varda to his side (like he did with Sauron and many other Maiar) as she was a very powerfull Vala; with her help, he thought he would certainly overcome the other Valar.

But why is it especially mentioned then? Why isn't there then similar remarks about other Valar/Valier? (See A_Brandybuck's post below yours.)

Originally Posted by A_Brandybuck

There must be another reason, that Melkor started to hate her. I mean, Tolkien mentioned only Varda in this case, consequently she must have done something, what the other Ainur have not done.

I see the reason in a special rivalry of the 'brothers in mind' Melkor and Manwë. Both are really powerful Ainu and plays some special parts in the thoughts of Eru. But both represents the opposite in the concepts, which they have. Evil versus Good.

It seems to me (I am only speculating), that both Ainur wanted Varda as spouse. But she rejected Melkor and became the spouse of Manwë. Considering the rivalry of Manwë and Melkor, this must be very hurtful for Melkor to see his chosen spouse going to his rival in mind.

That could be an explanation of the (from Tolkien) underlined hatred of Melkor against Varda. Refusing to being spouse of him and then becoming spouse of his rival can be a reason for very personal feelings and when you are assessed like Melkor, this will be manifested surely as hatred.

That was what I was thinking about and i'm glad that you have also thought so, because I wondered if I was becoming pervertic (=seeing dual meanings everywhere).

But, again, do Valar have romantic/sexual feelings? I think I read from somewhere that they didn't, but it seems that at least maiar (or some of them) had: see Melian. That o'course takes us to interesting paths: what if gandalf had fallen in love with someone in ME?!?

Seriously, I question my own conclusion about maiar and love; maybe it wasn't romantic/sexual love that Melian felt towards Thingol, but somekind of deep affection (which we see Gandalf being capable of) and their marriage was kind of compromise/union of her affection and Thingol's love (and lust). Any thoughts?

[Earendilyon]

Originally Posted by Thinlómien

But why is it especially mentioned then? Why isn't there then similar remarks about other Valar/Valier? (See A_Brandybuck's post below yours.)

That was what I was thinking about and i'm glad that you have also thought so, because I wondered if I was becoming pervertic (=seeing dual meanings everywhere).

But, again, do Valar have romantic/sexual feelings? I think I read from somewhere that they didn't, but it seems that at least maiar (or some of them) had: see Melian. That o'course takes us to interesting paths: what if gandalf had fallen in love with someone in ME?!?

Seriously, I question my own conclusion about maiar and love; maybe it wasn't romantic/sexual love that Melian felt towards Thingol, but somekind of deep affection (which we see Gandalf being capable of) and their marriage was kind of compromise/union of her affection and Thingol's love (and lust). Any thoughts?

A_brandybuck's post got me thinking. Maybe Morgoth had indeed a special interest in Varda; some (non-sexual, I deem) lust for her, for her power and what he could do with her by his side. In come A_B's ideas about the rivalry between Melkor and Manwë. I think Melkor thought more in terms of power than in terms of (sexual or non-sexual) love.

However, we see him later (but by that time he has become more attached to his physical embodiment and even further devolved into his evilness) lusting for Lúthien; IIRC this has been discussed here at the BD some time (long) ago.

[Raynor]

In regards to the valar feelings, in some early variants of the story (and even in HoME X - "Fionwe son of Manwe"), we find refferences to the sons of the valar (though Chris discarded those versions in the Silmarillion).


Concerning Melkor's relation to Varda, it is noted in Myths Transformed that he desired to posses all light:

As a shadow Melkor did not then conceive himself. For in his beginning he loved and desired light, and the form that he took was exceedingly bright; and he said in his heart: 'On such brightness as I am the Children shall hardly endure to look; therefore to know of aught else or beyond or even to strain their small minds to conceive of it would not be for their good.' But the lesser brightness that stands before the greater becomes a darkness. And Melkor was jealous, therefore, of all other brightnesses, and wished to take all light unto himself

and esspecially Varda's, since she was the keeper of Eru's light, the only one untainted by Melkor.

[Findegil]

I think the discussion is focused to a time later then the "feelings" of Melkor for Varda. As already quted it is told that "Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music". Well I don't think that any of the Ainur did not know Melkor but it is mentioned in a way to suggest that Varda did already know that Melkor was on a strange path (strange not evil) before ever the music started. And it is quite possible that this was the case since it is told that Melkor "had gone often alone into the void places ... being alone he had begun to conceive thoughts of his own unlike those of his brethren."

So the sequence of the events was like this:
Making of the Ainur
Making of the timless halls
while the Ainur sing alone or in small groups before Eru Melkor is often in the Void
Melkor begins to think his own thoughts astranged from his brethern
Melkor desires Varda (for what ever)
She sees his astrangement from the other Ainu and rejects him
the playing of the Music
the Valar move into Ea
Varda gets the light newly given from Eru
She enters Ea to become Manwes companion

It is more than once told that "in Arda" Varda is Manwes soupose. WHich for me means that she had become so after both entered Ea.

Respectfully
Findegil

[Lalwendë]

Originally Posted by Raynor

In regards to the valar feelings, in some early variants of the story (and even in HoME X - "Fionwe son of Manwe"), we find refferences to the sons of the valar (though Chris discarded those versions in the Silmarillion).

I'd agree with this. In the earliest versions of the Silmarillion writings, the Valar not only married but also had children, which suggests that desire must also have played some part. This is very reminiscent of Pagan gods. At a later stage however, Tolkien altered the text and removed such references. The text that we have now may retain some remnants of its more 'pagan' past. I ownder if he did this to 'Christianise' the text or to remove sub-creation of 'beings' from the capacity/remit of the Valar?

[Raynor]

I wonder if he did this to 'Christianise' the text or to remove sub-creation of 'beings' from the capacity/remit of the Valar?

I would say the later; in the Christian tradition, there is the interpretation that the refference "the sons of God" found in Genesis 6:1-4 (who mated with Men and had children with them) were in fact angels, which would imply that they had bodies (as possibly stated in Mark 16:5) and reproductive capacity - which is unlike the 'angelic' beings of Tolkien, as he later conceived them in Annals of Aman:

Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent.

[Thinlómien]

Originally quoted by Raynor
Note that 'spouse' meant only an 'association'. The Valar had no bodies, but could assume shapes. After the coming of the Eldar they most often used shapes of 'human' form, though taller (not gigantic) and more magnificent.

But

Originally posted by me myself and I
...but why did they then marry? To compose a union? Why there weren't any male unions then?

Any thoughts?

[Raynor]

but why did they then marry? To compose a union? Why there weren't any male unions then?

I would say it is due to a matter of complementarity; we clearly have pairs of valar who are on the same area of activity, yet they complete each other through their different traits - most striking in the case of Manwe and Varda:

When Manwe there ascends his throne and looks forth, if Varda is beside him, he sees further than all other eyes, through mist, and through darkness, and over the leagues of the sea. And if Manwe is with her, Varda hears more clearly than all other ears the sound of voices that cry from east to west, from the hills and the valleys, and from the dark places that Melkor has made upon Earth

-while with Aule and Yavanna we could even talk of opposition, considering that their "children" were at odds with each other; Mandos deals with dooms (active part) while Varie with their recording ("passive")
- Irmo deals with dreams while Este with "rest" (dream/sleep "area")
- Tulkas and Nessa are both outstanding "athlets" - in their own ways
- Orome, lord of animals, Vana lady of flowers

Therefore, each such union helps the "associated" to better complete their mission in their area of activity.