The Hobbit - Chapter 04 - Over Hill and Under Hill

[Estelyn Telcontar]

After the comforts of Rivendell, travelling on seems bleak to the Dwarves, Gandalf and Bilbo. The weather is uncomfortable, they feel the cold, and even the silence takes on personality: “...seemed to dislike being broken.” The thunderstorm is personified in the stone giants, another of those races that are difficult to place in the overall Legendarium.

Then comes a typical situation, whether in old fairytales or modern horror movies – the shelter they find turns into danger. Another new race is introduced to the readers: goblins! They take Bilbo and the dwarves captive, as well as their ponies. The song they sing is strongly onomatopoetic, with lots of rhyming – fun to read aloud!

The passage describing the goblins says a lot about Tolkien and his opinion on modern inventions and technology! A lot of what is said ties into the modern world. I can’t help but wonder how the goblins remember the swords Glamdring and Orcrist; is there some sort of collective memory or are they so long-lived that they would actually have experienced those weapons previously?

Gandalf saves the day, at least at first; then they are recaptured. The chapter ends with Bilbo’s blackout, and since we are seeing things from his point of view, we have to wait for him to wake up in the next chapter before we know what happens.

Do you enjoy this chapter? Can you reconcile the goblins with the orcs as we see them later in LotR? What impresses you most?

[Aiwendil]

This second adventure for Bilbo and the Dwarves is altogether more serious than their first. If the trolls perhaps come across as overgrown Cockney types, the goblins seem to be much more sinister and "realistic" villains.

I can’t help but wonder how the goblins remember the swords Glamdring and Orcrist; is there some sort of collective memory or are they so long-lived that they would actually have experienced those weapons previously?

This is an interesting question. If Orcs are indeed corrupted Elves, then (as others have suggested elsewhere) it seems reasonable to suppose that they are immortal. On the other hand, there is a way in which immortality simply doesn't seem to fit with their portrayal. But I imagine that Glamdring and Orcrist were quite famous among goblins; it doesn't seem any stranger that the Great Goblin would recognize them than that Legolas or Aragorn would recognize a Balrog.

[Formendacil]

Originally Posted by Aiwendil

This is an interesting question. If Orcs are indeed corrupted Elves, then (as others have suggested elsewhere) it seems reasonable to suppose that they are immortal. On the other hand, there is a way in which immortality simply doesn't seem to fit with their portrayal. But I imagine that Glamdring and Orcrist were quite famous among goblins; it doesn't seem any stranger that the Great Goblin would recognize them than that Legolas or Aragorn would recognize a Balrog.

Perhaps....

Perhaps not.

Actually, it's jumping ahead to a later chapter, but a tidbit of information relating to Bolg is handy here. He's the only ork for whom a lifespan is suggested.

We know that he had do have been born during or before 2799- the year his father Azog was slain in the Battle of Nanduhirion. If we assume that Orks, being the evil creatures they are, would have killed him- or at least thwarted his chances of succeeding Azog, then we can probably add twenty years, if not more, to his age. Let's give him a birth year of 2780.

Bolg dies in 2941, the year in which The Hobbit takes place. This gives us a definite lifestpan of 142 years, and- as I said- at least a generation's worth of time to be relatively mature. Factoring into account the fact that Bolg seems to have not yet been in his old age, but rather in his prime, a lifespan of over 200 years seems perfectly reasonable for an Ork.

I'll leave any further observations about the chapter till another day (or night), and I'll leave the implications of the Orkish lifespan for the other brains here to ponder.

[Raynor]

Another interesting point to discuss would be the stone giants: if they really exist (and most of the party members reffer to them seriously, Gandalf intents to bring one along to shut the orc gate, etc) why are they so elusive everywhere else? Are they ents? Where they present at Caradhras when the fellowship was stopped in its way?

[mormegil]

Can you reconcile the goblins with the orcs as we see them later in LotR?

I have difficulty with this. I can not for the life of me imagine Ugluk, Shagrat or Gorbag signing to each other or their captives. I can imagine them torturing them but not singing. There just seems to be a difference between the manner in which most races are portrayed. Tolkien does a good job at explaining that they are nasty creatures but they seem more like creatures we would see on the movie Gremlins than a serious evil, twisted creature.

[JennyHallu]

Perhaps the "goblins" in the Hobbit are a smaller form of mountain-orc. There is precedent for racial variety among orcs in the LotR canon. It is also likely that they have not been under the direct thumb of Sauron for some time, and those they capture are likely to have traditions of song. Since Melkor modeled the orcs after the elves, (there is speculation that he actually twisted the Avari into orcs) it is not unreasonable to suppose them capable of twisting the joyful songs of the Children of Iluvatar and Aule into their own tunes. Plus, the orcs of Moria had drums. Considering how rarely anyone ventured into the caves, it is unlikely they built the drums solely for the purpose of scaring the socks off random passersby...

[Tuor of Gondolin]

This chapter also again brings up the questions
of anachronisms and inconsistencies with LOTR.
For example, should JRRT have removed/changed the
fairy tale-ish picture of stone giants and Thorin's allusion to
football (soccer).

But we musn't discuss this too much, preciouss.
Yess, 'praps the next chapter is poor Smeagol's
favorite, except when Thief Baggins cheats in it.

[dancing spawn of ungoliant]

Originally Posted by morm

I have difficulty with this. I can not for the life of me imagine Ugluk, Shagrat or Gorbag signing to each other or their captives. I can imagine them torturing them but not singing.

It's very appropriate for the Hobbit's style that the goblins sing, and while I have hard time imagining Shagrat and Gorbag sitting around a campfire and singing, I'm not sure whether it would be too weird to hear orcs sing in LotR or not. After all, the goblins' singing was described to be croaking and a big part of the lyrics here is ghastly sound effects and laughing. I'd imagine their songs were hardly anything like organized a cappella performances but rather just, well, croaking when they got excited.

There's this painting by John Howe, and although it's a portrait of Gollum, I've always pictured the goblins to look like that. They're vile (keeping slaves, making torturing devices) and sneaky (sprinters with soft shoes ), but not like PJ's Uruk-hai, although the description of the Great Goblin sounded a bit like that.

Originally Posted by JennyHallu

Plus, the orcs of Moria had drums. Considering how rarely anyone ventured into the caves, it is unlikely they built the drums solely for the purpose of scaring the socks off random passersby...

The drums didn't necessarily serve any musical purpose in the goblin society. They used to be handy tools for communicating since their sound could be heard over great distances. I'd believe that in labyrinthic caves drumming would have been an ideal way to send messages without too much trouble. Besides, since the message "language" was probably different among different tribes and cultures, unwanted people (spies, whom the goblins seemed to be afraid of) couldn't have interpreted the messages.

Originally Posted by TH, Over Hill and Under Hill

Far, far away in the West, where things were blue and faint, Bilbo knew there lay his own country of safe and comfortable things, and his little hobbit-hole.
...
The summer is getting on down below.

I just started thinking, since there were no TVs, cameras or such in Middle-earth, Bilbo hadn't ever seen what it is like to watch the lands so far up above. That must have been quite an experience for him. Probably a good way to open his eyes to see that there's so much outside the borders of the Shire, too. What is it like to be so isolated from other people than your companions and be so far away from home that even the seasons can't reach you? Quite daunting for poor Bilbo, I guess.

[JennyHallu]

The drums didn't necessarily serve any musical purpose in the goblin society. They used to be handy tools for communicating since their sound could be heard over great distances. I'd believe that in labyrinthic caves drumming would have been an ideal way to send messages without too much trouble. Besides, since the message "language" was probably different among different tribes and cultures, unwanted people (spies, whom the goblins seemed to be afraid of) couldn't have interpreted the messages.

Yes, but Tolkien specifically states the orcs had no language of their own, but twisted that of others to their own ends. Developing a drum-message system is very like developing an original language, but we don't have any evidence of drum-messages in any other Tolkien culture. More likely the drums were used militarily to give very simple messages, and, i think, for dark parodies of lighter Middle-Earth music.

[Raynor]

Developing a drum-message system is very like developing an original language, but we don't have any evidence of drum-messages in any other Tolkien culture.

I disagree:

Originally Posted by The ride of the Rohirrim

- Is the enemy coming then? asked Merry anxiously. Are those their drums? I began to think I was imagining them, as no one else seemed to take any notice of them.
- Nay, nay, said Elfhelm, the enemy is on the road not in the hills. You hear the Woses, the Wild Men of the Woods: thus they talk together from afar.

[Lalwendë]

I don't have such difficulty in imagining Orcs singing. We do tend to associate singing with beauty, but singing serves many purposes. Rugby players (not that I am equating them with Orcs! ) are well known for getting thoroughly drunk and singing crude and colourful songs. There is also the Haka (sp?) chant - as seen performed by the All Blacks before a match; this is said to derive from ancient Maori war chants. Armies sing as they march to war, and a lot of our popular music is incredibly brutal and visceral. The urge to sing, I'd say, occurs to all sorts of people and in all sorts of situations!

If these Goblins are indeed Orcs, then it interests me that they seem to have some independence and have developed their own realm. But then I remember in LotR Gorbag and Shagrat discuss possible 'retirement', so maybe lifelong (eternal?) service to whichever Dark Lord is currently holding half of Middle-earth in his thrall is not necessarily a given thing for Orcs?

[JennyHallu]

Raynor: You got me...I totally forgot about that. Kudos!

Lalwende:

If these Goblins are indeed Orcs, then it interests me that they seem to have some independence and have developed their own realm. But then I remember in LotR Gorbag and Shagrat discuss possible 'retirement', so maybe lifelong (eternal?) service to whichever Dark Lord is currently holding half of Middle-earth in his thrall is not necessarily a given thing for Orcs?

Interesting...when Morgoth twisted the elves into orcs were they yet capable of any virtuous feeling? Perhaps orcs and goblins are incapable of true loyalty, and can only be held by fear. If this is so, when Shagrat and Gorbag discussed retirement, was that just talking big, a sign of Sauron's weakness and indecision, or did Sauron honestly reward those who had served him for so long?

And that last I seriously doubt...

[mormegil]

My problem isn't that they are singing it's the actual song they are singing. It's too light, too whimsical for orcs/goblins. It sounds reminscant of the elves singing in Rivendell.

Another thing to note is that Bilbo understood what was sung. So these goblins were specifically singing in the common toungue. This is interesting because Tolkien points out later that they couldn't understand the Warg toungue, with the exception of Gandalf. Also in LotR we note how Tolkien takes the time to explain that though the orcs from different clans have different languages they speak the common toungue with each other and thus Merry and Pippin could understand them. Now what does this mean? To me it indicates that it wasn't just ritious singing and reveling on the goblins part but singing such riduculous things to their captives was on purpose and to be frank this is one of the reasons I don't enjoy The Hobbit as much.

[Raynor]

But then I remember in LotR Gorbag and Shagrat discuss possible 'retirement', so maybe lifelong (eternal?) service to whichever Dark Lord is currently holding half of Middle-earth in his thrall is not necessarily a given thing for Orcs?

No, (or at least not on the fundamental level):

Originally Posted by Notes on motives in the Silmarillion

Morgoth not Sauron is the source of Orc-wills. Sauron is just another (if greater) agent. Orcs can rebel against him without losing their own irremediable allegiance to evil (Morgoth).

Concerning the use of the westron, it is said in the Appendix F of RotK:

And these creatures ... quickly developed as many barbarous dialects as there were groups or settlements of their race, so that their Orkish speech was of little use to them in intercourse between different tribes. So it was that in the Third Age Orcs used for communication between breed and breed the Westron tongue; and many indeed of the older tribes, such as those that still lingered in the North and in the Misty Mountains, had long used the Westron as their native language, though in such a fashion as to make it hardly less unlovely than Orkish.