frodo was both the weakest and strongest person in the Trilogy? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

the_master_of_puppets · 02-17-2002, 04:16 PM

I feel that Frodo was both the strongest and weakest members of the books.

I feel he was the weakest because i couldnt bring himself to kill, even when defending his beloved Shire, and he always seems to have given up but goes on simply because he just can and that it. He doesnt have hope or any real will to acclumplish anything, and in one way he doesnt in the end anyway (aclumlish anything).

On the other hand he was the strongest because no other could bear it as far as he with it having little affect on him. It would be wrong to suggest it doesnt affect Frodo at all, because we see him harsher with Gollum than we would expect in TTT, and in TROTK we see him snap at sam 4 example because it is eating away at him. It is a sad fact Gollum was needed to get the ring into the mountain, but i think if he hadnt been around Sam would have got it off Frodo somehow even if he had to throw himself in to protect Frodo an everyone else...

Which leads me on to saying Sam is a stronger person, personality wise, and he is one of the true heros of the book. In many ways Frodo is not the hero at all, and tho he perhaps doesnt get enough credit, he doesnt deserve as much as his friends who fought and risked their lives for everyone else. Which even at the end, Frodo proves he will not do.

Whats everone think of my ramblings?!

Enedhil · 02-17-2002, 04:28 PM

Whew...glad i'm not the only one! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] i understand what you mean

Joy · 02-17-2002, 04:57 PM

In some ways I agree with you. Sam is the stongest of the two hobbits. As some one stated before, that LotR was Sam's tale, it ended with him saying

Quote:

Well, I'm back

It was a story of his growth, his undying love and friendship to Frodo.

As far as Frodo being weak because he couldn't bring himself to kill to defend the Shire, I do not see this. The reason he did not want to kill was because of mercy and pity. He had learned pity through Gollum. Remember the line that Gandalf said to Frodo?

Quote:

Frodo: He deserves death.
Gandalf: Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.

It takes a stronger person to stay the hand in mercy than it takes to strike with the hand.

Elven-Maiden · 02-17-2002, 05:30 PM

I agree: Frodo was both weak and strong. Sam was strong in his love for Frodo, but weak on his own.

Therefore, both are strong and weak in their own way. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] oh well! that was fun [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Rosa Underhill · 02-17-2002, 06:23 PM

Quote:

I feel he was the weakest because i couldnt bring himself to kill

On this point, I disagree. As stated above, it takes great strength to stay the hand; a man who kills easily is truely weak.

But I agree about Frodo being both weak and strong. It took strength to bear the burden, but in the end, the burden crushed him and he became weak.

Lush · 02-17-2002, 10:15 PM

To me, Sam is the real hero of the story. He carried Frodo up that darned mountain. And I daresay he would have succeeded where Frodo failed. I am glad that afterwards, Sam was the one allowed to live out his life in the Shire, surrounded by his family. The meek shall inherit the Earth indeed.

Rosa Underhill · 02-17-2002, 10:20 PM

Well, if you think on it, Frodo really couldn't have lived happily if he'd stayed in Middle-earth anyway. He was wounded in more than one way. Of the two, Sam certainly is the stronger; he bore the Ring without any ill effect. Ah, good ol' Sam!

Thingol · 02-17-2002, 10:51 PM

I think that bearing the Ring was a much more difficult task than the actual physical journey into and through Mordor. Just look at what the Ring did to Boromir, and he only saw it once and briefly at that. It is amazing that the Ring did not overcome Frodo much sooner. There is no way that anyone in Middle Earth could have willingly cast the Ring into Mount Doom; not Gandalf, not Aragorn, not Elrond, not even Sam. Frodo's character is certainly more complex than Sam. Sam is a fairly static character, he starts out totally devoted to Frodo and remains so. Sam's perception of the world is altered only slightly, certainly not to the extent that Frodo's was. Frodo is a dynamic character who grows throughout the book. At the beginning of the Fellowship he wished Bilbo had killed Gollum, but at the end he tells Sam to forgive Gollum. Frodo's experience with the Ring has such a profound effect on him that he can not remain in the Shire. Sam's wounds are merely physical, which are soon overcome, Frodo's afflictions are much deeper. Sam embodies the themes of loyalty, friendship, and devotion in The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings is certainly the story of Sam in that those themes play an important role in the book. However, I believe that the main theme is the inevitable change that comes about with the defeat of evil and the passage of time. Frodo is certainly the more complex character, he is changed by his experiences with the Ring. The Lord of the Rings is a story about Frodo and the fading of the past. The Lord of the Rings is the greatest adventure story ever told, but that alone is not what makes it great. It is not the epic tale that keeps me coming back to The Lord of the Rings, it is the imagery and the language that is associated with the theme of change, and the sadness that comes along with change, that really moves me. The profound melancholy that permeates The Lord of the Rings is derived from Frodo’s struggle with the Ring, not Sam’s heroics and total devotion to Frodo. Nothing against Sam, but Frodo's mental struggle is by far more difficult (and in my opinion more important to the book) than Sam's physical struggle.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

Nova · 02-18-2002, 12:19 AM

You must admit that of all the Fellowship, and perhaps among all those we meet in the trilogy, Frodo has the edge in sheer force of will -- he never wants to continue, he just does it anyway. Although I see Sam as an incredibly strong character as well, it's possible to just look at him as Frodo's devoted and dependant servant.

In reality, I think the strengths of the two hobbits really complement each other. Frodo has the mental and emotional sturdiness to survive his burden and continue on against impossible odds, and Sam has the sheer devotion that keeps Frodo going when he is too beaten down by what he faces. As was said -- none could have undertaken that quest alone. We say that Sam was strong because the Ring never damaged him, but how long did he carry it for? How long did Frodo carry it, before he began to truly feel the effects? And how long would it have been were he not wounded at Weathertop?

The issue isn't as cut and dry as it may seem.

Rosa Underhill · 02-18-2002, 12:35 AM

Quote:

How long did Frodo carry it, before he began to truly feel the effects?

The effects started telling on Frodo even before he ever wore it. Recall his concern for the Ring when Gandalf threw it in the fire? (Of course, that was after seventeen years of owning the thing, but that wasn't the same as wearing it, which Frodo doesn't do until Gandalf shows up again.) And don't forget Boromier, who not once even touched the Ring but was driven mad by it. The length of time one wears the Ring doesn't always matter. It started to get to Sam just at it did to Frodo but Sam rationalized (in his simple way) the draw of the Ring away. Frodo could not deny the Ring's call, especially so near Mordor. But I digress. (Now I think I'm back to where I started with favorite characters: Frodo and Sam are equal again, though I love them each for different reasons.)

Regardless, neither Frodo nor Sam would have finished the quest without each other; that's the true strength seen in this book. The stength of friendship. You'll notice that it isn't just Frodo and Sam who are bound by it; Merry and Pippin would not have fared well without each other; even Legoalas and Gimli were made stronger by their bonds of friendship. The one who suffered the most dire consequences of the fellowship was the one who was, ultimately, alone: Boromir.

Aralaithiel · 02-18-2002, 07:55 PM

Well said, Thingol!
I also agree that Sam & Frodo complement each other.
Cool thread!

Pips · 02-18-2002, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thingol:
I think that bearing the Ring was a much more difficult task than the actual physical journey into and through Mordor. Just look at what the Ring did to Boromir, and he only saw it once and briefly at that. It is amazing that the Ring did not overcome Frodo much sooner. There is no way that anyone in Middle Earth could have willingly cast the Ring into Mount Doom; not Gandalf, not Aragorn, not Elrond, not even Sam. Frodo's character is certainly more complex than Sam. Sam is a fairly static character, he starts out totally devoted to Frodo and remains so. Sam's perception of the world is altered only slightly, certainly not to the extent that Frodo's was. Frodo is a dynamic character who grows throughout the book. At the beginning of the Fellowship he wished Bilbo had killed Gollum, but at the end he tells Sam to forgive Gollum. Frodo's experience with the Ring has such a profound effect on him that he can not remain in the Shire. Sam's wounds are merely physical, which are soon overcome, Frodo's afflictions are much deeper. Sam embodies the themes of loyalty, friendship, and devotion in The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings is certainly the story of Sam in that those themes play an important role in the book. However, I believe that the main theme is the inevitable change that comes about with the defeat of evil and the passage of time. Frodo is certainly the more complex character, he is changed by his experiences with the Ring. The Lord of the Rings is a story about Frodo and the fading of the past. The Lord of the Rings is the greatest adventure story ever told, but that alone is not what makes it great. It is not the epic tale that keeps me coming back to The Lord of the Rings, it is the imagery and the language that is associated with the theme of change, and the sadness that comes along with change, that really moves me. The profound melancholy that permeates The Lord of the Rings is derived from Frodo’s struggle with the Ring, not Sam’s heroics and total devotion to Frodo. Nothing against Sam, but Frodo's mental struggle is by far more difficult (and in my opinion more important to the book) than Sam's physical struggle.

[ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ]

I agree 100%!!

the_master_of_puppets · 02-19-2002, 01:38 PM

I think, althought i still c Frodo as both strong and weak, that his character is the more complex as it has been suggested here. And having thought more sensibley, the thing about pity staying the hand to make a stronger man (or hobbit in this case!) i now totally agree with. What, perhaps i meant and didnt put very well, is that Frodo has remained unchanged in the sense he still does not wish to kill (that isnt necessarily a bad thing btw!), whereas merry/sam/pippin are all willing to. I just meant it as an example of their characters growing and his not in the same way.

Tarlondeion Of Gondolin · 02-19-2002, 03:12 PM

I just finished reading the book again and I think that Frodo seems to do nothing, Sam's always doing everything for him, making and finding food, finding water, defending him even carrying him. Frodo may have been carrying the ring but from the very start he does nothing.

Aralaithiel · 02-19-2002, 03:24 PM

How can Frodo do much of anything when that dang ring is messing with his mind? It's consuming his thoughts, emotions, etc. So he needs his clear headed buddy to do the simple things for him. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

dragongirlG · 02-19-2002, 03:32 PM

Well said, Thingol. I couldn't have done better.

In response to Tarlondeion Of Gondolin's thread --Frodo is always doing something. He's carrying the Ring. That in itself is a great task and burden. Frodo is physically impaired during his journey because of the burden of the Ring, therefore he cannot do the things that Sam can do. I believe Frodo is the stronger character because even though the Ring's power grew on him, he still had the will and the strength to carry on to Mount Doom. Sam's strength lies in his devotion to his master and his ignorance and purity of heart. Frodo is not able to have these characteristics because he is the Ring-bearer.

I want to say more, but can't think of what. Oh well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

dragongirlG

Pips · 02-19-2002, 05:23 PM

Really, I mean that ring's gotta be a pain in the butt, alway whispering black words to you, trying to curropt you, controll you, to get you to PUT IT ON! Hell, I'd need my best friend, just to keep me SANE!

Eowyn of Ithilien · 02-20-2002, 02:36 AM

perhaps the fact that Frodo was too "weak" to kill meant that only he was "strong" enough to bear the ring
I love them both [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Joy · 02-20-2002, 02:46 AM

Eowyn, I think your right. You said in one sentance that which it has taken me all day to explain to my mother. That was a wonderful statement.

Alchrivëwen · 02-20-2002, 06:34 AM

Well this has been said enough and more but I agree, the two hobbits could not have made it through without each other so therefore no one can take all the credit unless it be gollum who mistakenly threw himself in the cracks ofdoom along with the Ring, Also I agree on the point of the Ring, the struggle was not physical it was mental which iswhat Sauron wanted, but also if you recal, Sauron was also captured by the Ring, which makesw me amazed that if a Maya could be captured by the Ring, would the Valar resist? and if they could would you need to be a Valar to distroy the Ring? or is it just frendship that can distroy the ring or evil in real life. youve all probably heard the term 'only love can conquer hate' personally I think that that was what Tolkien was trying to insinuate

Joy · 02-21-2002, 02:08 AM

Spoiler alert: Skip if you haven't read through the whole series.

Frodo and the rest of the company was willing to distroy the ring. They set out with that mission. I believe that the ring would have to be carried by someone who the ring could have control over, but strong enough in spirit/mind/character to endure and overcome the power and lust for the ring. I know that in the end, it was distroyed by Gollum, who never wanted the ring to be distroyed, but the ring was taken to Mount Doon freely for the purpose of distroying it, then when Frodo took claim upon it, I believe that Destiny/Fate/Eru Illuvatar stepped in. (that was a major run-on) It was because of this willingness that allowed Illuvatar to move the circumstances for the ring to be destroyed.

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-21-2002, 05:12 AM

One of the things that shows Frodo's strength is the scene at the Fords of Buirien. Frodo, by himself, stands up to the Nine.

Quote:

Suddenly the foremost Rider spurred his horse forward. It checked at the water and reared up. With a great effort Frodo sat upright and brandished his sword.
'Go back!' he cried. 'Go back to the Land of Mordor, and follow me no more! ' His voice sounded thin and shrill in his own ears. The Riders halted, but Frodo had not the power of Bombadil. His enemies laughed at him with a harsh and chilling laughter. 'Come back! Come back!' they called. 'To Mordor we will take you!'
'Go back!' he whispered.
'The Ring! The Ring!' they cried with deadly voices; and immediately their leader urged his horse forward into the water, followed closely by two others.
'By Elbereth and Lúthien the Fair,' said Frodo with a last effort, lifting up his sword, 'you shall have neither the Ring nor me!'
Then the leader, who was now half across the Ford, stood up menacing in his stirrups, and raised up his hand. Frodo was stricken dumb. He felt his tongue cleave to his mouth, and his heart labouring. His sword broke and fell out of his shaking hand. The elf-horse reared and snorted. The foremost of the black horses had almost set foot upon the shore.

Indeed, Frodo is the only person in the book to stand up against all of the Nine, and he did it alone.
This is actually one of my big problems with the movie, that Frodo's finest moment was taken from him. (But I'm not going to go into that here [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] )

the_master_of_puppets · 02-21-2002, 02:18 PM

i agree! it is sad frodos moment is taken, but im sure they'll make up for it in other ways

Bruce MacCulloch · 02-21-2002, 02:31 PM

You have much more faith than I, then.

LúthienTinúviel · 02-21-2002, 11:42 PM

I see Frodo as both the more complex of the two (Sam and Frodo) and the stronger. Sam's loyalty remains the same throughout the book. He starts off with that task, and he sees it through. Now, don't get me wrong, his journey was one of immense courage and stregth, but I think Sam is more loyal than anything else, wich is a kind of strength.

As for Frodo, he didn't just have one person to be loyal to. By accepting the Ring, he took upon himself the burden of the future of all of Middle-earth and its inhabitants. His responsisbility was to everyone. He had to make the choices that would determine the fate of the world, and he was hunted, both physically and mentally, at every step of the way. The hordes of Sauron were after him. The Ring bore down on him with relentless evil will. He saw his friends torn apart. He suffered the guilt that if he did succeed, he saved Men but doomed the Elves, and if he lost, he doomed everyone, but more particularly the race of men. He was beset from without and within. The Ring tried to control him and the people around him. After the Ring's power grows stronger on the way to Mordor, he staggers on. If even Gandalf, Elrond or Galadriel could not bear the Ring, what does that say of Frodo?

Sam did carry the Ring, but only very briefly. Only time could say whether he could carry it as Frodo did. They were both strong, but Sam's situation was much simpler than Frodo's.

Sorry about the rambling, but I love Frodo. I cried so many times in the book when he was tired or naked or cold. And in the movie, Elijah Wood was so amazing that at the end, when he's standing by the water and later when he's embracing Sam in the boat, he looked so sorrowful and haunted that it broke my heart.

Namárië,
Lúthien

mark12_30 · 02-22-2002, 08:32 AM

Luthien, that wasn't rambling, that was golden. Thanks for pointing out the (easily forgotten) guilt about destroying the elves' staying power if he destroys the ring. It's mentioned often in Lorien and Rivendell, but I forget all about it by Ithilien and Mordor! As an elf-friend, that guilty knowledge must have been a nasty, nasty thing to carry all the way to Mordor all by itself.

No, Frodo had all he could do to stumble forward one foot in front of the other. Sam was his Rock, and Frodo couldn't have made it without him certainly; but Frodo was neither selfish, self-centered, weak, wympy, or wishy-washy.

I reread Shadows of the Past last night, and the section where Gandalf tests Frodo by challenging him to toss the ring into the fire-- and Frodo can't do it even then-- amazed me deeply. Gandalf even said that same day that nobody could take the ring from Frodo or make him destroy it because it would shatter him. And yet Gandalf trusts him to take it to Mordor. The only way I can reconcile that is that Gandalf trusted ILUVATAR to get the ring to Mordor and destroy it there. And Frodo was the one to do it; in despair and without hope (how often did he say "The whole thing is quite hopeless, Sam"?) he set his face (like flint) toward the darkness and marched.

I wish I was one-tenth the man that Frodo was.

--mark12_30

Alchrivëwen · 02-22-2002, 08:36 AM

*clapps* you are a very good speaker Luthien

LúthienTinúviel · 02-22-2002, 10:53 AM

Thanks guys! And I also wish I was one trillionth the man, erm...the woman...uhh...person, as Frodo. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

Namárië,
Lúthien

Alchrivëwen · 02-22-2002, 11:00 AM

L [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]L

LúthienTinúviel · 02-22-2002, 11:27 AM

PS: You people with the Orlando Bloom advertisemnt make me sad. I am not. I am a well-behaved, mature 17 year old...does that count? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

Namárië,
Lúthien

Alchrivëwen · 02-22-2002, 11:31 AM

EVERY ONE HERE IS OLDER THAN ME, Im only 13

Rosa Underhill · 02-22-2002, 01:12 PM

Luthien and mark, you guys are awesome! Thank you for writing.

I think I'll change my WWSD? slogan to WWAHD? "What would a Hobbit do?" Woo hoo! Go Iluvatar! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I, too, wish I were more like the kuduk(hobbits).

It doesn't matter who was "weakest" or "strongest". Inevitably, we silly Big Folk get it wrong most of the time. What we see as weakness is real strength and vice versa. Middle-earth would have seen it's end days in the War of the Ring if Iluvitar hadn't had other designs.

dragongirlG · 02-22-2002, 03:36 PM

Quote:

EVERY ONE HERE IS OLDER THAN ME, Im only 13

I'm getting off on a tangent here...but so am I! Muahaha! I'm 13 but I'm not one of those ditzy girls; I HATE THEM! I'm sort of a "nerd" but not exactly...I'm just a normal "smart" person but I have my own special talents [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

the_master_of_puppets · 02-25-2002, 01:15 PM

I'm not that much older than u: im 15.

Ages aside, i had actually forgotten the whole deal todo with dooming the elves, and about gandalf/elrond/galadriel not being able to take the ring.

In my mind, simply put, Frodo is strong in his head and heart and Sam is strong physically and in his heart too.

Does this make sense?
But at the same time Frodo is weak because he cant finish the job, but then how many could, if any? So is everyone weak? lol, u get confused after so long... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Rosa Underhill · 02-25-2002, 03:36 PM

dragongirlG, there are no "normal smart people". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] In fact, normality is a myth. (Seriously, it is! I don't believe in normal.) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

Samwise · 02-25-2002, 03:56 PM

Quote:

As far as Frodo being weak because he couldn't bring himself to kill to defend the Shire, I do not see this. The reason he did not want to kill was because of mercy and pity. He had learned pity through Gollum. Remember the line that Gandalf said to Frodo?
quote:
---------------------------------------------
Frodo: He deserves death.
Gandalf: Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
---------------------------------------------
It takes a stronger person to stay the hand in mercy than it takes to strike with the hand.

Well said, Joy. I agree.

Quote:

"Well, I'm back."
Sam Gamgee

Pips · 02-26-2002, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LúthienTinúviel:
I see Frodo as both the more complex of the two (Sam and Frodo) and the stronger. Sam's loyalty remains the same throughout the book. He starts off with that task, and he sees it through. Now, don't get me wrong, his journey was one of immense courage and stregth, but I think Sam is more loyal than anything else, wich is a kind of strength.

As for Frodo, he didn't just have one person to be loyal to. By accepting the Ring, he took upon himself the burden of the future of all of Middle-earth and its inhabitants. His responsisbility was to everyone. He had to make the choices that would determine the fate of the world, and he was hunted, both physically and mentally, at every step of the way. The hordes of Sauron were after him. The Ring bore down on him with relentless evil will. He saw his friends torn apart. He suffered the guilt that if he did succeed, he saved Men but doomed the Elves, and if he lost, he doomed everyone, but more particularly the race of men. He was beset from without and within. The Ring tried to control him and the people around him. After the Ring's power grows stronger on the way to Mordor, he staggers on. If even Gandalf, Elrond or Galadriel could not bear the Ring, what does that say of Frodo?

Sam did carry the Ring, but only very briefly. Only time could say whether he could carry it as Frodo did. They were both strong, but Sam's situation was much simpler than Frodo's.

Sorry about the rambling, but I love Frodo. I cried so many times in the book when he was tired or naked or cold. And in the movie, Elijah Wood was so amazing that at the end, when he's standing by the water and later when he's embracing Sam in the boat, he looked so sorrowful and haunted that it broke my heart.

Namárië,
Lúthien

FINALLY!!! Someone else who Loves Frodo like I do.(Don't look at me like that! Not that kind of Love, I don't want to marry him!)
Luthien! I feel the same way you do, and I cried so much at the end of the movie, because I felt for Frodo. I've cried so much reading the book, there's this little voice in the back of my mind asking why I still read it. Simple. Because the story is streamed with humanity and traits I would love to see in people in this day and age.

LúthienTinúviel · 02-26-2002, 11:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Pips:


FINALLY!!! Someone else who Loves Frodo like I do.(Don't look at me like that! Not that kind of Love, I don't want to marry him!)
Luthien! I feel the same way you do, and I cried so much at the end of the movie, because I felt for Frodo. I've cried so much reading the book, there's this little voice in the back of my mind asking why I still read it. Simple. Because the story is streamed with humanity and traits I would love to see in people in this day and age.

Yeah! Let's start a club! I'm in love with Frodo!

Namárië,
Lúthien

Hahaha...I'm losing credibilty aren't I? I go from intelligent comments to insane screaming. Go me.

Pips · 02-28-2002, 06:03 PM

Tell ya what, when I and a friend of mine finsh our site, named Hobbit Groupie, for the fans of the hobbits, I'll give you the address.

LúthienTinúviel · 02-28-2002, 07:43 PM

Thanks Pips!

02-17-2002, 04:16 PM	#1
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	frodo was both the weakest and strongest person in the Trilogy? I feel that Frodo was both the strongest and weakest members of the books. I feel he was the weakest because i couldnt bring himself to kill, even when defending his beloved Shire, and he always seems to have given up but goes on simply because he just can and that it. He doesnt have hope or any real will to acclumplish anything, and in one way he doesnt in the end anyway (aclumlish anything). On the other hand he was the strongest because no other could bear it as far as he with it having little affect on him. It would be wrong to suggest it doesnt affect Frodo at all, because we see him harsher with Gollum than we would expect in TTT, and in TROTK we see him snap at sam 4 example because it is eating away at him. It is a sad fact Gollum was needed to get the ring into the mountain, but i think if he hadnt been around Sam would have got it off Frodo somehow even if he had to throw himself in to protect Frodo an everyone else... Which leads me on to saying Sam is a stronger person, personality wise, and he is one of the true heros of the book. In many ways Frodo is not the hero at all, and tho he perhaps doesnt get enough credit, he doesnt deserve as much as his friends who fought and risked their lives for everyone else. Which even at the end, Frodo proves he will not do. Whats everone think of my ramblings?!

02-17-2002, 04:28 PM	#2
Enedhil Wight Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Scotland Posts: 102	Whew...glad i'm not the only one! [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] i understand what you mean __________________ Meanwhile these three remain: Faith, Hope and Love. And the greatest of these is Love.

02-17-2002, 05:30 PM	#4
Elven-Maiden Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Canada Posts: 297	I agree: Frodo was both weak and strong. Sam was strong in his love for Frodo, but weak on his own. Therefore, both are strong and weak in their own way. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] oh well! that was fun [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ Tout ce qui est or ne brille pas, Tous ceux qui errent ne sont pas perdus. Mobilis in Mobile

02-17-2002, 10:15 PM	#6
Lush Fair and Cold Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the big onion Posts: 1,770	To me, Sam is the real hero of the story. He carried Frodo up that darned mountain. And I daresay he would have succeeded where Frodo failed. I am glad that afterwards, Sam was the one allowed to live out his life in the Shire, surrounded by his family. The meek shall inherit the Earth indeed. __________________ ~The beginning is the word and the end is silence. And in between are all the stories. This is one of mine~

02-17-2002, 10:20 PM	#7
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Well, if you think on it, Frodo really couldn't have lived happily if he'd stayed in Middle-earth anyway. He was wounded in more than one way. Of the two, Sam certainly is the stronger; he bore the Ring without any ill effect. Ah, good ol' Sam! __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-17-2002, 10:51 PM	#8
Thingol Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Long Island, New York Posts: 259	I think that bearing the Ring was a much more difficult task than the actual physical journey into and through Mordor. Just look at what the Ring did to Boromir, and he only saw it once and briefly at that. It is amazing that the Ring did not overcome Frodo much sooner. There is no way that anyone in Middle Earth could have willingly cast the Ring into Mount Doom; not Gandalf, not Aragorn, not Elrond, not even Sam. Frodo's character is certainly more complex than Sam. Sam is a fairly static character, he starts out totally devoted to Frodo and remains so. Sam's perception of the world is altered only slightly, certainly not to the extent that Frodo's was. Frodo is a dynamic character who grows throughout the book. At the beginning of the Fellowship he wished Bilbo had killed Gollum, but at the end he tells Sam to forgive Gollum. Frodo's experience with the Ring has such a profound effect on him that he can not remain in the Shire. Sam's wounds are merely physical, which are soon overcome, Frodo's afflictions are much deeper. Sam embodies the themes of loyalty, friendship, and devotion in The Lord of the Rings. The Lord of the Rings is certainly the story of Sam in that those themes play an important role in the book. However, I believe that the main theme is the inevitable change that comes about with the defeat of evil and the passage of time. Frodo is certainly the more complex character, he is changed by his experiences with the Ring. The Lord of the Rings is a story about Frodo and the fading of the past. The Lord of the Rings is the greatest adventure story ever told, but that alone is not what makes it great. It is not the epic tale that keeps me coming back to The Lord of the Rings, it is the imagery and the language that is associated with the theme of change, and the sadness that comes along with change, that really moves me. The profound melancholy that permeates The Lord of the Rings is derived from Frodo’s struggle with the Ring, not Sam’s heroics and total devotion to Frodo. Nothing against Sam, but Frodo's mental struggle is by far more difficult (and in my opinion more important to the book) than Sam's physical struggle. [ February 17, 2002: Message edited by: Thingol ] __________________ Yet the lies that Melkor, the mighty and accursed, Morgoth Bauglir, the Power of Terror and of Hate, sowed in the hearts of Elves and Men are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed; and ever and anon it sprouts anew, and will bear dark fruit even unto the latest days.

02-18-2002, 12:19 AM	#9
Nova Pile O'Bones Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: New York Posts: 14	You must admit that of all the Fellowship, and perhaps among all those we meet in the trilogy, Frodo has the edge in sheer force of will -- he never wants to continue, he just does it anyway. Although I see Sam as an incredibly strong character as well, it's possible to just look at him as Frodo's devoted and dependant servant. In reality, I think the strengths of the two hobbits really complement each other. Frodo has the mental and emotional sturdiness to survive his burden and continue on against impossible odds, and Sam has the sheer devotion that keeps Frodo going when he is too beaten down by what he faces. As was said -- none could have undertaken that quest alone. We say that Sam was strong because the Ring never damaged him, but how long did he carry it for? How long did Frodo carry it, before he began to truly feel the effects? And how long would it have been were he not wounded at Weathertop? The issue isn't as cut and dry as it may seem. __________________ ...in Khazad-dûm his wisdom died... "Now come, you filth! You've hurt my master, you brute, and you'll pay for it. We're going on; but we'll settle with you first. Come on, and taste it again!" "If I'm to go on, then I must take your sword, by your leave, Mr. Frodo, but I'll put this one to lie by you, as it lay by the old king in the barrow; and you've got your beautiful mithril coat from old Mr. Bilbo. And your star-glass, Mr. Frodo, you did lend it to me and I'll need it, for I'll be always in the dark now. It's too good for me, and the Lady gave it to you, but maybe she'd understand. Do you understand, Mr. Frodo? I've got to go on." -Nova

02-18-2002, 07:55 PM	#11
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	Well said, Thingol! I also agree that Sam & Frodo complement each other. Cool thread! __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-19-2002, 01:38 PM	#13
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	I think, althought i still c Frodo as both strong and weak, that his character is the more complex as it has been suggested here. And having thought more sensibley, the thing about pity staying the hand to make a stronger man (or hobbit in this case!) i now totally agree with. What, perhaps i meant and didnt put very well, is that Frodo has remained unchanged in the sense he still does not wish to kill (that isnt necessarily a bad thing btw!), whereas merry/sam/pippin are all willing to. I just meant it as an example of their characters growing and his not in the same way.

02-19-2002, 03:12 PM	#14
Tarlondeion Of Gondolin Haunting Spirit Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Gondolin the fair Posts: 94	I just finished reading the book again and I think that Frodo seems to do nothing, Sam's always doing everything for him, making and finding food, finding water, defending him even carrying him. Frodo may have been carrying the ring but from the very start he does nothing.

02-19-2002, 03:24 PM	#15
Aralaithiel Ghost Eldaran Queen Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: A remote mountain in Valinor Posts: 353	How can Frodo do much of anything when that dang ring is messing with his mind? It's consuming his thoughts, emotions, etc. So he needs his clear headed buddy to do the simple things for him. [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] __________________ A lelyat, wen! (Quenya Elvish for "You go, girl!"

02-19-2002, 03:32 PM	#16
dragongirlG Wight Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Stock, the Shire Posts: 151	Well said, Thingol. I couldn't have done better. In response to Tarlondeion Of Gondolin's thread --Frodo is always doing something. He's carrying the Ring. That in itself is a great task and burden. Frodo is physically impaired during his journey because of the burden of the Ring, therefore he cannot do the things that Sam can do. I believe Frodo is the stronger character because even though the Ring's power grew on him, he still had the will and the strength to carry on to Mount Doom. Sam's strength lies in his devotion to his master and his ignorance and purity of heart. Frodo is not able to have these characteristics because he is the Ring-bearer. I want to say more, but can't think of what. Oh well. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] dragongirlG

02-19-2002, 05:23 PM	#17
Pips Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brandyhall, Texas Posts: 67	Really, I mean that ring's gotta be a pain in the butt, alway whispering black words to you, trying to curropt you, controll you, to get you to PUT IT ON! Hell, I'd need my best friend, just to keep me SANE!

02-20-2002, 02:36 AM	#18
Eowyn of Ithilien Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 277	perhaps the fact that Frodo was too "weak" to kill meant that only he was "strong" enough to bear the ring I love them both [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] __________________ But of bliss and glad life there is little to be said, before it ends; as works fair and wonderful, while still they endure for eyes to see, are their own record, and only when they are in peril or broken for ever do they pass into song.

02-20-2002, 02:46 AM	#19
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Eowyn, I think your right. You said in one sentance that which it has taken me all day to explain to my mother. That was a wonderful statement. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

02-20-2002, 06:34 AM	#20
Alchrivëwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Everywhere and aywhere, look behind you! Posts: 56	Well this has been said enough and more but I agree, the two hobbits could not have made it through without each other so therefore no one can take all the credit unless it be gollum who mistakenly threw himself in the cracks ofdoom along with the Ring, Also I agree on the point of the Ring, the struggle was not physical it was mental which iswhat Sauron wanted, but also if you recal, Sauron was also captured by the Ring, which makesw me amazed that if a Maya could be captured by the Ring, would the Valar resist? and if they could would you need to be a Valar to distroy the Ring? or is it just frendship that can distroy the ring or evil in real life. youve all probably heard the term 'only love can conquer hate' personally I think that that was what Tolkien was trying to insinuate __________________ A Elbereth Gilthoniel!

02-21-2002, 02:08 AM	#21
Joy Spirit of a Warrior Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Wandering Posts: 1,012	Spoiler alert: Skip if you haven't read through the whole series. Frodo and the rest of the company was willing to distroy the ring. They set out with that mission. I believe that the ring would have to be carried by someone who the ring could have control over, but strong enough in spirit/mind/character to endure and overcome the power and lust for the ring. I know that in the end, it was distroyed by Gollum, who never wanted the ring to be distroyed, but the ring was taken to Mount Doon freely for the purpose of distroying it, then when Frodo took claim upon it, I believe that Destiny/Fate/Eru Illuvatar stepped in. (that was a major run-on) It was because of this willingness that allowed Illuvatar to move the circumstances for the ring to be destroyed. __________________ God bless, Joy KingdomWarrior@hotmail.com http://kingdomWarrior.jlym.com As the hart panteth after the water brooks, so panteth my soul after thee, O God. My soul thirsteth for God, for the living God: when shall I come and appear before God?

02-21-2002, 02:18 PM	#23
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	i agree! it is sad frodos moment is taken, but im sure they'll make up for it in other ways

02-21-2002, 02:31 PM	#24
Bruce MacCulloch Dead Man of Dunharrow Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 651	You have much more faith than I, then. __________________ `A blunderbuss, was it?' said he, scratching his head. `I thought it was horseflies!'

02-21-2002, 11:42 PM	#25
LúthienTinúviel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 76	I see Frodo as both the more complex of the two (Sam and Frodo) and the stronger. Sam's loyalty remains the same throughout the book. He starts off with that task, and he sees it through. Now, don't get me wrong, his journey was one of immense courage and stregth, but I think Sam is more loyal than anything else, wich is a kind of strength. As for Frodo, he didn't just have one person to be loyal to. By accepting the Ring, he took upon himself the burden of the future of all of Middle-earth and its inhabitants. His responsisbility was to everyone. He had to make the choices that would determine the fate of the world, and he was hunted, both physically and mentally, at every step of the way. The hordes of Sauron were after him. The Ring bore down on him with relentless evil will. He saw his friends torn apart. He suffered the guilt that if he did succeed, he saved Men but doomed the Elves, and if he lost, he doomed everyone, but more particularly the race of men. He was beset from without and within. The Ring tried to control him and the people around him. After the Ring's power grows stronger on the way to Mordor, he staggers on. If even Gandalf, Elrond or Galadriel could not bear the Ring, what does that say of Frodo? Sam did carry the Ring, but only very briefly. Only time could say whether he could carry it as Frodo did. They were both strong, but Sam's situation was much simpler than Frodo's. Sorry about the rambling, but I love Frodo. I cried so many times in the book when he was tired or naked or cold. And in the movie, Elijah Wood was so amazing that at the end, when he's standing by the water and later when he's embracing Sam in the boat, he looked so sorrowful and haunted that it broke my heart. Namárië, Lúthien __________________ Such lissom limbs no more shall run on the green earth beneath the sun; so fair a maid no more shall be from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea. http://www.thereandbackagain.net

02-22-2002, 08:32 AM	#26
mark12_30 Stormdancer of Doom Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Elvish singing is not a thing to miss, in June under the stars Posts: 4,349	Luthien, that wasn't rambling, that was golden. Thanks for pointing out the (easily forgotten) guilt about destroying the elves' staying power if he destroys the ring. It's mentioned often in Lorien and Rivendell, but I forget all about it by Ithilien and Mordor! As an elf-friend, that guilty knowledge must have been a nasty, nasty thing to carry all the way to Mordor all by itself. No, Frodo had all he could do to stumble forward one foot in front of the other. Sam was his Rock, and Frodo couldn't have made it without him certainly; but Frodo was neither selfish, self-centered, weak, wympy, or wishy-washy. I reread Shadows of the Past last night, and the section where Gandalf tests Frodo by challenging him to toss the ring into the fire-- and Frodo can't do it even then-- amazed me deeply. Gandalf even said that same day that nobody could take the ring from Frodo or make him destroy it because it would shatter him. And yet Gandalf trusts him to take it to Mordor. The only way I can reconcile that is that Gandalf trusted ILUVATAR to get the ring to Mordor and destroy it there. And Frodo was the one to do it; in despair and without hope (how often did he say "The whole thing is quite hopeless, Sam"?) he set his face (like flint) toward the darkness and marched. I wish I was one-tenth the man that Frodo was. --mark12_30 __________________ ...down to the water to see the elves dance and sing upon the midsummer's eve.

02-22-2002, 08:36 AM	#27
Alchrivëwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Everywhere and aywhere, look behind you! Posts: 56	clapps you are a very good speaker Luthien __________________ A Elbereth Gilthoniel!

02-22-2002, 10:53 AM	#28
LúthienTinúviel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 76	Thanks guys! And I also wish I was one trillionth the man, erm...the woman...uhh...person, as Frodo. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img] Namárië, Lúthien __________________ Such lissom limbs no more shall run on the green earth beneath the sun; so fair a maid no more shall be from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea. http://www.thereandbackagain.net

02-22-2002, 11:00 AM	#29
Alchrivëwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Everywhere and aywhere, look behind you! Posts: 56	L [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]L __________________ A Elbereth Gilthoniel!

02-22-2002, 11:27 AM	#30
LúthienTinúviel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 76	PS: You people with the Orlando Bloom advertisemnt make me sad. I am not. I am a well-behaved, mature 17 year old...does that count? [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] Namárië, Lúthien __________________ Such lissom limbs no more shall run on the green earth beneath the sun; so fair a maid no more shall be from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea. http://www.thereandbackagain.net

02-22-2002, 11:31 AM	#31
Alchrivëwen Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Everywhere and aywhere, look behind you! Posts: 56	EVERY ONE HERE IS OLDER THAN ME, Im only 13 __________________ A Elbereth Gilthoniel!

02-22-2002, 01:12 PM	#32
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	Luthien and mark, you guys are awesome! Thank you for writing. I think I'll change my WWSD? slogan to WWAHD? "What would a Hobbit do?" Woo hoo! Go Iluvatar! [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] I, too, wish I were more like the kuduk(hobbits). It doesn't matter who was "weakest" or "strongest". Inevitably, we silly Big Folk get it wrong most of the time. What we see as weakness is real strength and vice versa. Middle-earth would have seen it's end days in the War of the Ring if Iluvitar hadn't had other designs. __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-25-2002, 01:15 PM	#34
the_master_of_puppets Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: scotland Posts: 77	I'm not that much older than u: im 15. Ages aside, i had actually forgotten the whole deal todo with dooming the elves, and about gandalf/elrond/galadriel not being able to take the ring. In my mind, simply put, Frodo is strong in his head and heart and Sam is strong physically and in his heart too. Does this make sense? But at the same time Frodo is weak because he cant finish the job, but then how many could, if any? So is everyone weak? lol, u get confused after so long... [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

02-25-2002, 03:36 PM	#35
Rosa Underhill Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Waymeet, the Shire Posts: 297	dragongirlG, there are no "normal smart people". [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] In fact, normality is a myth. (Seriously, it is! I don't believe in normal.) [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ WWAHD? (What would a Hobbit do?)

02-28-2002, 06:03 PM	#39
Pips Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brandyhall, Texas Posts: 67	Tell ya what, when I and a friend of mine finsh our site, named Hobbit Groupie, for the fans of the hobbits, I'll give you the address.

02-28-2002, 07:43 PM	#40
LúthienTinúviel Haunting Spirit Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Doriath Posts: 76	Thanks Pips! __________________ Such lissom limbs no more shall run on the green earth beneath the sun; so fair a maid no more shall be from dawn to dusk, from sun to sea. http://www.thereandbackagain.net