Melkor

[Beleg]

I pass you a topic I found in another forum. If some of you don't know it, it could be interesting to get some opinion about the statute of this Vala.

Being found of this character, I found this subject intriguing.

Here is a part of the thread:

Melkor was one mighty guy, second only to Eru.
His role as an adversary, seemed to be planned by Eru from the outset.
All that Melkor done, only strengthend Eru's grand design.

What an adversary he turned out to be !
All other Valar and free peoples had to unite to expel him.

Perhaps the role of adversary was given to Eru's most trusted servent ?

Perhaps thats why Eru assigned Melkor such great power.

Odd way to think about it ?

It is not for me an odd way to think. Yet, there are maybe some things to correct in this thought.

• This person seems to consider that Melkor knew what role Eru assigned to him.
  
  But:
  The Silmarillion:
  
  And many other things Iluvatar spoke to the Ainur at that time, and because of their memory of his words, and the knowledge that each has of the music that he himself made, the Ainur know much of what was, and is, and is to come, and few things are unseen by them. Yet some things there are that they cannot see, neither alone nor taking counsel together; for to none but himself has Iluvatar revealed all that he has in store, and in every age there come forth things that are new and have no foretelling, for they do not proceed from the past.
  
  However great is he, Melkor ignores lot of parts in Eru's great scheme. So, how could he know what Eru is expecting from him, and play his part to content him? Did Eru tell him? No, it is clear enough in the texts, Melkor doesn not know the true role he is playing.
  
  Indeed. We see that Melkor is corrupting the Music for his own good and wants to change it to content his desire of appropriation of Arda. He is acting on his own authority...or that's what he thinks
  ==>Eru :"no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall " )
  
  So, he is not participating willingly to Eru's project as it is supposed further in the topic.
  
  
• Yet, this doesn not exclude Melkor's importance. He got a primary role in Arda's story. Ok, he's ruining the work of all the Valar, corrupting Elves and Men, spreading lies and doubt. But is it not what we call the balance?
  
  I personnaly think that Melkor is the second greatest Vala because of that. His part is to counterpoise Manwë. He might be the opposite, or even better, the complement. It is a kind of Yin/Yang, there is no order without chaos. The disorder is necessary in the universe, to renew things and make better ones. In every society, there is a time for revolution. Wars and treasons in the LoTR or the First Age are seen as evil, because coming from Morgoth. Surely, Elves and Men didn't realised the true role of Morgoth. If Manwë knew it, it is another thing, but I believe that finally Melkor was misunderstood in Middle-Earth. But his fate it was.
  
  
  
• At last: if it was so difficult to expel him, as Yoda would say (approximately) it is because to choose Evil is easier, but you need lot of strength to take the path of righteousness and erase what has been done. Melkor is a massive character, by himself he could stand in front of legions for centuries. It required lot of strength and coalition to expel him in the void. Is it not another sign of his great statute? (it is as we see that what his will/Eru's will created still survive through Sauron and his followers).

[Anguirel]

Originally Posted by Beleg

I personnaly think that Melkor is the second greatest Vala because of that. His part is to counterpoise Manwë. He might be the opposite, or even better, the complement. It is a kind of Yin/Yang, there is no order without chaos.

I would go further, actually, and venture that He Who Arises In Might is a far greater being than the Lord of the Breath of Arda. Melkor is the classic immoralist; they've existed, thrived, and burnt brilliantly out at the last ever since the Platonic interlocutor Thrasymachus scorned Socrates' belief in morality.

Thrasymachus argued that morality is imposed by the fear of weak beings at full human potential. Immorality, if practised on a large enough scale, he says, is more free, more honest, and leads to a truer fulfillment of the powers of the human spirit.

It is in this way that Melkor acts (along with the more minor villains of Tolkien) and I see a heroism in his rebellion that I'm not sure Tolkien himself sympathised with. He's not satisfied by Illuvatar's word. He wants to see, to possess, to create, himself. Manwe sticks to his father's orders and profits thereby; but he hardly achieves greatness. Countless heroes of the Eldar and Edain (themselves striving against the thought of Melkor, as Melkor strove against Eru's) perish because of his saintly indifference.

Like all immoralists, including Thrasymachus, who Socrates eventually out-debated, Melkor's argument cannot prevail over the united forces of morality, and he is doomed to sink as low as he was once great; but he leaves his legacy behind him, while Manwe and the other Valar retreat entirely from the world.

Melkor and Sauron both bear comparison to Alberich in Wagner's Ring, of course, who takes the same kind of route. It is the wrong route, true, but it certainly leads to greatness.

[Farael]

I recall in another forum I was in that we had an interesting discussion with regard to whether or not you would be able to differenciate good from evil if one of the two did not exist. If the world was "only evil" then how could you know it was so? perhaps then what we consider evil would be taken as a good thing while righteous acts would be "evil".

Yet I disagree with that point of view. The reason why we have (at least some of) our morals is because they actually help us on the long run. Sure, it is easyer if instead of arguing or discussing things with my friends and acquaintances, I just kill anyone who thinks different than me and therefore sooner or later, everyone will agree. Yet that is not quite productive, as I might have to kill a lot of people.

Same principle applies. It is easier to grab whatever I want to, yet on the long run it will perjudice me as someone will take from me something they want. On the other hand, if I hold back and earn it, just like everyone else has to earn it, then it will be mine for as long as I want to keep it (or as long as it lasts, whatever the object of my desire might be)

What does all this have to do with Melkor? well, his greatness comes from the fact that he took from others what they had created and when he created something it was for trying to steal some more from the other Valar. On the other hand the other Valar showed restraint. They might have wanted something their partners had created yet they either asked for it (the trees were created by Yvanna I believe yet they all shared it) or they made some of their own (Aule made the dwarves and Yvanna (was it her?) gave souls to the trees, creating Ents). At first it was more work for the other Valar and Morgoth took advantage of it, but on the long run the cooperative acts of many could do more than the selfish acts of one. And remember that evil behaviour is inherently selfish, as being selfish is one of the many things that we consider "evil".

At least, that's my point of view... I hope it was clear, as I'm particulary tired today... if not, let me know and I'll try to edit out all the mistakes =)

[Bergil]

a touchy subject. Now that I think about it, perhaps Eru WANTED a bad influence in the world, to galvanize the good people into being strong and clever, hence Melkor's rebellion being Iluvatar's "instrument". Also, most talents origianate, or are assisted by the "bad part" of you (by some logic acting skill is lying skill, sports proficiancy (most were origionally war practice) is fighting proficiancy etc. etc.).Imagine a person who is perfect and pure. Unable to do any wrong. Sounds good at first, but when you think about it, someone who cannot lie, strike a blow or insult someone and is a complete aesectic isn't someone I'd want on my side. What's more, you can't count on him to stick with you, he will see no betrayal in abandoning you for someone who seems more moral. Does Arda Remade (better then the theoretically perfect first edition) symbolize this? You tell me.

[Legolas]

I do not think Eru wanted a bad, negative, or 'evil' force in the world, nor did he place Morgoth there hoping he would be an 'adversary.'

This is a question that comes up from time to time. Eru spoke to Melkor on his 'misbehavior' in The Silmarillion:

And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument, in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.

Melkor is not 'corrupting' the music - what Eru is saying there is that Melkor cannot corrupt the music, nor can anyone else. Freewill is part of the music. I'd definitely call him a willing participant in the music - perhaps the most eager to participate because of his desire to sing out over the others. Do as he may, Melkor cannot prevent good from prevailing. He has the choice and right to choose 'good' or 'evil.' However, no matter how many things he destroys, no matter how many people he corrupts, he cannot remove the ultimate good present in Ea and everything in it. That is, he can choose his own fate, and influence the fate of others (though it is ultimately their own doing). What he cannot do is 'create' a new 'fate' for himself that goes against Eru's creation, against the music...that is impossible. It's what he set out to do, and obviously failed.

[The Saucepan Man]

Originally Posted by Legolas

I do not think Eru wanted a bad, negative, or 'evil' force in the world, nor did he place Morgoth there hoping he would be an 'adversary.'

It was, however, a probable, perhaps even inevitable, consequence of free will.

[Legolas]

Sure. All I meant was that it was not an intentional, nor a necessary part of his plan.

[obloquy]

Originally Posted by Anguirel

I would go further, actually, and venture that He Who Arises In Might is a far greater being than the Lord of the Breath of Arda.

It's written that in his beginning Melkor was a power that could not be mastered by all of the other Valar combined.