men, elves and orcs? - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

elven maiden Earwen · 02-15-2003, 06:51 PM

This is a weird theory i came up with:
In the first age Morgoth captured elves that wandered alone in the north. From these elves he bred orcs. Orcs are mutated elves. What if an elf that was captured had reletives? Orcs most likly reprodused to multiply. Would a elf that was a reletive to an elf that was captured be related to a orc and its reletives? In that case many elves are related to men so every time an elf or man killed a orc wouldnt there be a possiblity that they are relatered? In that case wouldnt it be considered kin slaying?

This is a strange theory I came up with after seeing "The Two Towers" in my spare time. Do you think anything I said might have been posible?

Arvedui III · 02-15-2003, 07:08 PM

Plauseible(sorry on spelling) but your not really suposed to think that hard about it.

Dain · 02-15-2003, 07:19 PM

Interesting idea, but I don't think kinslaying is the right way to look at it...

I think the elves that were twisted into orcs were so far changed that nothing spawned from them could be said to be related to any real elf.

elven maiden Earwen · 02-15-2003, 09:55 PM

ok so maybe not kinslaying but killing someone you were distantily related to.

Bill Ferny · 02-15-2003, 10:00 PM

Aye! Of course! And what about the Halls of Mandos? Orcs when they die would certainly go to the Halls of Mandos, wouldn’t they? After all they are corrupted elves, no? Of course, orcs as corrupted elves would have free will. Thus they could be redeemed. It would, therefore, be murder to kill an unarmed orc!

What I’m sarcastically getting at, is that this subject has already been discussed on numerous other threads, and these threads are actually quite good. Perhaps we should use the search engine and insert our theories into these older and more advanced threads. This would have two outstanding benefits: first, it would give your theory a better footing by basing it on research already done by others, and, second, it would shoot some new life into those threads that obviously need to be reviewed.

elven maiden Earwen · 02-15-2003, 10:16 PM

i tried searxh and i couldnt find anything like this.

Dain · 02-16-2003, 05:26 AM

Yes, so there are lots of "are orcs immortal" threads, but why not just lets us humor it. Apparently "Morgoth's Ring" is a good section, but I don't have that book, and there is also a thread in the Cannon Silmarillion project here (see Orcish Fear), so look there.

Basically, the way I see the discussion is this:
A) Silmarillion says orcs were corrupted elves. The plus sides of this are that they make perfect enemies for elves (anti-elves) if this is true, and we know that Morgoth/Sauron can't create life, and Men don't seem to have been around yet. However, this brings up questions about where orcs go when they die, and this kinslaying thing, and whether they are immortal (which is actually supported in places I feel).

B) Later, it seems Tolkien changed his mind, because he wrote very clearly in the margin of one of his letters "orcs are not elvish". Now, it's not clear what that means to me, but he was obviously troubled by the same things we've all been troubled by.

C) Apparently, there is also support for orcs coming from beasts, elves, men and maiar, in differring measure. There would then be a lot of beastial, horde/slave orcs, and some more aware slave-driver orcs (Grishnahk? Snaga?), and some very powerful captain orcs (Bolg? Shagrat?). (Too me, though, most orcs seem about the level of men in their understanding of whats going on, some are just smarter than others and therefore rise to higher positions and live longer.)

I'm not sure how this would get resolved, but I still feel that elves are the best literary choice, and that they were perverted to such an extent that they were no longer elves in any way. However, I think Tolkien changed his mind and was set against this in the end. Hope this helps you and doesn't annoy anyone who's had a similar discussion. Cheers!

[ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ]

elven maiden Earwen · 02-16-2003, 12:08 PM

THANKS [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

02-15-2003, 06:51 PM	#1
elven maiden Earwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A world that never was and never will be Posts: 1,300	men, elves and orcs? This is a weird theory i came up with: In the first age Morgoth captured elves that wandered alone in the north. From these elves he bred orcs. Orcs are mutated elves. What if an elf that was captured had reletives? Orcs most likly reprodused to multiply. Would a elf that was a reletive to an elf that was captured be related to a orc and its reletives? In that case many elves are related to men so every time an elf or man killed a orc wouldnt there be a possiblity that they are relatered? In that case wouldnt it be considered kin slaying? This is a strange theory I came up with after seeing "The Two Towers" in my spare time. Do you think anything I said might have been posible? __________________ We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!!

02-15-2003, 07:08 PM	#2
Arvedui III Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: In Rohan, with Carolina on my mind Posts: 629	Plauseible(sorry on spelling) but your not really suposed to think that hard about it. __________________ I have no idea what you just said, but I'm inspired!

02-15-2003, 07:19 PM	#3
Dain Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iron Hills Posts: 127	Interesting idea, but I don't think kinslaying is the right way to look at it... I think the elves that were twisted into orcs were so far changed that nothing spawned from them could be said to be related to any real elf. __________________ Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.

02-15-2003, 09:55 PM	#4
elven maiden Earwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A world that never was and never will be Posts: 1,300	ok so maybe not kinslaying but killing someone you were distantily related to. __________________ We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!!

02-15-2003, 10:00 PM	#5
Bill Ferny Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bree Posts: 390	Aye! Of course! And what about the Halls of Mandos? Orcs when they die would certainly go to the Halls of Mandos, wouldn’t they? After all they are corrupted elves, no? Of course, orcs as corrupted elves would have free will. Thus they could be redeemed. It would, therefore, be murder to kill an unarmed orc! What I’m sarcastically getting at, is that this subject has already been discussed on numerous other threads, and these threads are actually quite good. Perhaps we should use the search engine and insert our theories into these older and more advanced threads. This would have two outstanding benefits: first, it would give your theory a better footing by basing it on research already done by others, and, second, it would shoot some new life into those threads that obviously need to be reviewed. __________________ I prefer Gillaume d’Férny, connoisseur of fine fruit.

02-15-2003, 10:16 PM	#6
elven maiden Earwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A world that never was and never will be Posts: 1,300	i tried searxh and i couldnt find anything like this. __________________ We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!!

02-16-2003, 05:26 AM	#7
Dain Wight Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Iron Hills Posts: 127	Yes, so there are lots of "are orcs immortal" threads, but why not just lets us humor it. Apparently "Morgoth's Ring" is a good section, but I don't have that book, and there is also a thread in the Cannon Silmarillion project here (see Orcish Fear), so look there. Basically, the way I see the discussion is this: A) Silmarillion says orcs were corrupted elves. The plus sides of this are that they make perfect enemies for elves (anti-elves) if this is true, and we know that Morgoth/Sauron can't create life, and Men don't seem to have been around yet. However, this brings up questions about where orcs go when they die, and this kinslaying thing, and whether they are immortal (which is actually supported in places I feel). B) Later, it seems Tolkien changed his mind, because he wrote very clearly in the margin of one of his letters "orcs are not elvish". Now, it's not clear what that means to me, but he was obviously troubled by the same things we've all been troubled by. C) Apparently, there is also support for orcs coming from beasts, elves, men and maiar, in differring measure. There would then be a lot of beastial, horde/slave orcs, and some more aware slave-driver orcs (Grishnahk? Snaga?), and some very powerful captain orcs (Bolg? Shagrat?). (Too me, though, most orcs seem about the level of men in their understanding of whats going on, some are just smarter than others and therefore rise to higher positions and live longer.) I'm not sure how this would get resolved, but I still feel that elves are the best literary choice, and that they were perverted to such an extent that they were no longer elves in any way. However, I think Tolkien changed his mind and was set against this in the end. Hope this helps you and doesn't annoy anyone who's had a similar discussion. Cheers! [ February 16, 2003: Message edited by: Dain ] __________________ Only I have looked through the shadow of the Gate. Beyond the shadow it waits for you still: Durin's Bane.

02-16-2003, 12:08 PM	#8
elven maiden Earwen Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A world that never was and never will be Posts: 1,300	THANKS [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] __________________ We pillage and plunder, we rifle and loot, Drink up me hearties, Yo Ho. the looniest site in the world!!!