Winged Nazgul- Dragons, winged horses, something else? WHAT WERE THEY. - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

The Green Ringwraith · 07-29-2002, 07:59 PM

Is always imagined them as gryphons, actually, or maybe just winged horses. I've sen lots of different depictions and no matter what they are, they all seem to fit. I think its good Tolkien never described them.... What do YOU think they look like?

[ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: The Green Ringwraith ]

Estelyn Telcontar · 07-30-2002, 01:32 AM

Here's what Tolkien himself said in RotK:

Quote:

The great shadow descended like a falling cloud. And behold! it was a winged creature: if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank. A creature of an older world maybe it was, whose kind, lingering in forgotten mountains cold beneath the Moon, outstayed their day, and in hideous eyrie bred this last untimely brood, apt to evil.

I would interpret the use of the word "eyrie" as an indication that is was an ancient sort of bird. If Tolkien thought of the winged steeds as a counterpart to the Eagles, that would be an additional indication.

burrahobbit · 07-30-2002, 01:43 AM

Quote:

it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers

That makes it seem more like a dumb dragon than a bird.

Daisy Sandybanks · 07-30-2002, 02:10 AM

Quote:

... if bird, then greater than all other birds, and it was naked, and neither quill nor feather did it bear, and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers; and it stank.

Hmmm, well Im thinking Dragon type of creature here. Though, then again, 'greater than all other birds', isn't that big for a Dragon. Although I could be wrong, Dragon's can get pretty small.
'and its vast pinions were as webs of hide between horned fingers' To me, this definitly sounds like Dragon wings, though, I could be wrong on this on too, Im not an expert on Dragons.
But, in any case, in my mind, it dosn't sound like any sort of bird.

theWhiteLady · 07-30-2002, 06:09 AM

I have seen these creatures depicted as pterydactiles (sp?) in several paintings. I'm not sure how accurate that might be but from the description given by Tolkien, I say it fits fairly well.
Their skin would be leathery, without feathers.
Webs of hide? from the pictures I've seen, they seem to have skin strectching between claws (or horned fingers)
And it certainly would be a creature of an older world.
Thoughts?

The Balrog-Durin's Bane · 07-30-2002, 06:15 AM

Sauron likes to corrupt everything, hes to lazy to create something originial elves=orcs, eagles=steeds o' nazgul, ents=trolls, man=uruk-hai, etc. I always saw these things with some short little legs, and pterodactyl type wings, with a long neck, that can whip around and growl, and see a wide range, of couse this is just my view....

Ravenna · 07-30-2002, 07:02 AM

I always imagined the steed to look like a sort of cross between a vulture and a bat, ithe the 'leathery wings', naked head etc, certainly not dragon like.

Aldagrim Proudfoot · 07-30-2002, 07:24 AM

I think if it was supposed to be a dragon like creature, he would have described it that way. To me,he described it like a featherless bird and "the Dark Lord took it, and nursed it with fell meats, until it grew beyond the measure of all things that fly." He also said it had a long naked neck. That would seem to me to be like an ostrich neck because a dragons neck wouldn't be naked, it would be scaled.

Quote:

The winged creature screamed at her

Dragons don't scream; they roar.

Susan Delgado · 07-30-2002, 07:39 AM

Quote:

I have seen these creatures depicted as pterydactiles (sp?)

Wehn I read the description in ROTK, I also thought of pterodactles. The description fits.

Dimaldaeon · 07-30-2002, 12:25 PM

John Howe actually painted one for his picture "The Dark Tower". A vulture with bat wings is a pretty good description. But they dont have a beak, instead they have these really big teeth filled jaws. There is a picture of one in the LOTR official movie guide.

The Fifth · 07-30-2002, 01:40 PM

This question has been asked before.

I imagine the winged Nazgûl steeds as birds. I stuck to the description Tolkien gave me, conjuring up the image of a large, v. ugly, featherless vulture with dragon-like wings in my head. But.. everyone's interpretation is different. But in my opinon, I think that the pterodactyls are a dumb idea. Since when were there dinosaurs in Middle-Earth?

theWhiteLady · 07-30-2002, 02:17 PM

True, I thought it was sorta dumb when I first thought of it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] However, it seems to fit the description that Tolkien gave as far as I can see, more than any other at least. Perhaps it was more a pterodactyl-like creature...?

Fingolfin of the Noldor · 07-30-2002, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Wehn I read the description in ROTK, I also thought of pterodactles. The description fits.

Indeed it does:

In response to the question: Did the Witch-king ride a pterodactyl at the siege of Gondor?:

Quote:

Pterodactyl. Yes and no. I did not intend the steed of the Witch-King to be what is now called a 'pterodactyl', and often is drawn (with rather less shadowy evidence than lies behind many monsters of the new and fascinating semi-scientific mythology of the 'Prehistoric'). But obviously it is pterodactylic and owes much to the new mythology, and its description even provides a sort of way in which it could be a last survivor of older geological eras.

Birdland · 07-30-2002, 07:07 PM

I don't think the Pterodactylus idea is so dumb. I mean, even if you didn't have dinosaurs in Middle Earth, if you stick leathery wings on some kind of scary, lizard-like creature, you pretty much come up with a Pterodactyl.

A bat-like creature, terror-wise, just doesn't cut it for me. It would just look like a giant, flying lizard-Pug.

07-29-2002, 07:59 PM	#1
The Green Ringwraith Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: On the edge of the world I'll roam and the home of the wolf will be my home. Posts: 77	Winged Nazgul- Dragons, winged horses, something else? WHAT WERE THEY. Is always imagined them as gryphons, actually, or maybe just winged horses. I've sen lots of different depictions and no matter what they are, they all seem to fit. I think its good Tolkien never described them.... What do YOU think they look like? [ July 29, 2002: Message edited by: The Green Ringwraith ] __________________ -What is it about the Green ones?- "...they fell under the dominion of the One, and they became Ringwraiths... This one just got a little too gamma ray happy."

07-30-2002, 06:15 AM	#6
The Balrog-Durin's Bane Pile O'Bones Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Waukesha, WI Posts: 18	Sauron likes to corrupt everything, hes to lazy to create something originial elves=orcs, eagles=steeds o' nazgul, ents=trolls, man=uruk-hai, etc. I always saw these things with some short little legs, and pterodactyl type wings, with a long neck, that can whip around and growl, and see a wide range, of couse this is just my view.... __________________ "Baruk Khazad! Khazad aimenu!"-Battle Cry of the Dwarves meaning "Axes of the Dwarves! the dwarves are upon you!" "...let Gimli son of Gloin warn you against foolish words, You speak evil of that which is far beyond the reach of your thought, and only little wit can excuse you."

07-30-2002, 12:25 PM	#10
Dimaldaeon Wight Join Date: May 2002 Location: Ireland & damn proud of it. Posts: 125	John Howe actually painted one for his picture "The Dark Tower". A vulture with bat wings is a pretty good description. But they dont have a beak, instead they have these really big teeth filled jaws. There is a picture of one in the LOTR official movie guide. __________________ Dear Saddam, Do not disunderestimate me.Yours G.W.Bush You're not drunk if you can still hold onto a blade of grass to stop yourself from falling off the face of the Earth

07-30-2002, 01:40 PM	#11
The Fifth Shade of Carn Dûm Join Date: May 2002 Location: Mordor Posts: 427	This question has been asked before. I imagine the winged Nazgûl steeds as birds. I stuck to the description Tolkien gave me, conjuring up the image of a large, v. ugly, featherless vulture with dragon-like wings in my head. But.. everyone's interpretation is different. But in my opinon, I think that the pterodactyls are a dumb idea. Since when were there dinosaurs in Middle-Earth? __________________ - Ringwraith #5, Servant of the Eye

07-30-2002, 06:09 AM	#5
theWhiteLady Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 116	I have seen these creatures depicted as pterydactiles (sp?) in several paintings. I'm not sure how accurate that might be but from the description given by Tolkien, I say it fits fairly well. Their skin would be leathery, without feathers. Webs of hide? from the pictures I've seen, they seem to have skin strectching between claws (or horned fingers) And it certainly would be a creature of an older world. Thoughts?

07-30-2002, 07:02 AM	#7
Ravenna Haunting Spirit Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: witney, oxfordshire Posts: 70	I always imagined the steed to look like a sort of cross between a vulture and a bat, ithe the 'leathery wings', naked head etc, certainly not dragon like.

07-30-2002, 02:17 PM	#12
theWhiteLady Wight Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Tennessee Posts: 116	True, I thought it was sorta dumb when I first thought of it [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] However, it seems to fit the description that Tolkien gave as far as I can see, more than any other at least. Perhaps it was more a pterodactyl-like creature...?

07-30-2002, 07:07 PM	#14
Birdland Ghastly Neekerbreeker Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: the banks of the mighty Scioto Posts: 1,751	I don't think the Pterodactylus idea is so dumb. I mean, even if you didn't have dinosaurs in Middle Earth, if you stick leathery wings on some kind of scary, lizard-like creature, you pretty much come up with a Pterodactyl. A bat-like creature, terror-wise, just doesn't cut it for me. It would just look like a giant, flying lizard-Pug.