Was Boromir a mistake?

I can't say that Bromir having gone was a mistake, but it sure had some drastic consequences. And Faramir may seem as a greater man then Boromir, but he was still "a man" (a human), which means to me that he had the same weaknesses Boromir had, but under the disguise of another personality.

And Boromir spent a long time and went through several events with the "company" of the One Ring. The One Ring had plenty of time to act over Boromir's mind and will, which were weakened by the sad turn of events, and influence him in ill ways. Had Faramir been the one to join the fellowship, the One Ring would have still had time to influence him and act over his mind.

I don't know if this is a satisfactory answer, but this is what comes to my mind at this time.

[Calencoire]

My belief is that everyting happens for a reason. If Faramir had gone, he (I think) would not have been so easily tempted by the ring. Everything would have been totally different.

I haven't read all the replies, so sorry if I am repeating. If Faramir had gone on the journey to Rivendell in Boromir's place (and there is no guarantee he would have made it, as Boromir is more fit for arduous travel), there is no reason to think that his fate would have been any different than Boromir's. He too could have died.
It then follows that all the events that occurred among Sam, Frodo, and Faramir could have occurred with Boromir in his brother's place. How different the story would have been! Boromir would have most certainly taken the ring then, thinking that it would save Gondor. Not being as wise or patient as Farmir, Boromir would have seen the ring as the last tool needed to destroy Mordor's armies
In response to the suggestion that a coherent fellowship would have stood an improved chance of destroying the ring, part of the success of Frodo and Sam (and Gollum) was their invisible nature and small number. The company of eight would have attracted significantly more attention. Frodo and Sam's success hinged on their invisibility from Sauron's distracted gaze. The fellowship's schism essentially saved the quest, as Sauron was distracted by the resurgence of Aragorn and Gondor.
Therefore, I don't think the story could have occurred any other way: Boromir was meant to be [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[Lathriel]

That Boromir went along might have been a mistake but I believe that it was nessecary because if he hadn't been part of the fellowship some things which had to happen wouldn't. For example, Frodo wasn't sure how he would go to Mordor but Boromir attacked him which helped Frodo make the decision to go alone. If Faramir would have gone along the quest might have gone wrong. Boromir was probably a nessecary mistake,but a sad one because he lost his life.
Boromir's death symbolizes the end of the fellowship.

[Haelothiel]

I don't believe that Boromir was a mistake. He was a turning point in the story. As many other people have stated, there is no telling what would have happened if Faramir and not Boromir had become part of the Fellowship. I believe that Boromir truly brought home to us the power of the ring: one of the Fellowship would try to take it. As someone else said, he was the most human person in the Fellowship, and he made a mistake but he redeemed himself. Boromir is one of my favorite characters because he made that mistake, but he had the strength of will to redeem himself with his life.

[Carrûn]

Boromir was not a mistake; he made mistakes but he was (at least in my opinion) still an essential part of the story. Frankly I always felt that out of all the characters he was the one with the most human connection; "book" Aragorn, while a noble and wonderful character in himself always seemed a bit too lofty and perfect.

As far as to the "what if's" I think they've pretty much all be covered already.

[NAri Brassbow]

anyone ever wonder who sent this dream?ponder htis for just a second will you,
it could have been an elaberate plan of The Enemy to weaken Gondor's strength and bring the ring closer to him. hmmmm. cheeky

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: NAri Brassbow ]

[Arvedui III]

Sauron didn't know where the ring was so he couldn't of sent the dream for the bringing of the ring to him. But the weakening of Gondor thing works.

[ February 23, 2003: Message edited by: Arvedui III ]

[Tirned Tinnu]

Ah, the ever-present wonder of the dream sender.
I have heard talk of it being Gandalf - for Gandalf was the keeper of the Ring of Fire.
I often used to say, "It helped him light a fire under people's asses!"
Some say it was Galadriel, working her charms. However, the voice that was heard crying out the words of the poem came from the West, where a light shone lingering amidst the dark clouds that aproached from the East...
Now what?
It's my belief that Gandalf, Elrond and Galadriel, through their need, summoned the powers of the Valar to deliver the message.
I liked the BBC's version, where the voice was that of a cherub singing. Sweet.

Also, perhaps the dream came to Boromir only after Faramir resisted it. After all, he tried to shake it off, suffering with it many times before Boromir had it. I truly believe that Faramir should have gone, but then, Faramir was full of troubles of his own. Poor Faramir was saddled with the fear of his father, fear of his own destiny-
he would not have made as stout a companion to ward off the evils of Moria. He should have gone, but due to his own fears he refused. He was truly troubled.
It was so much easier to let his father make the decision, and let Boromir the Brave! go on the journey.
Perhaps the company might not have made it even as far as Caradras without Boromir's stout build to dig them out.

I'm glad Tolkien saved Faramir for later. He was such a breath of fresh air in miserable times that I like him nearly as much as Aragorn. Such a noble character! *sigh*
[img]smilies/cool.gif[/img]

Hi!I agree with the people that said Boromir played his own important role in the Fellowship! He is as important as everyone else..and maybe even more than others..Now when it comes to the dream, if you really believe that a "force" made that desicion for Faramir to go, then why can't we assume that the "force" wanted Boromir to go instead of Faramir too? I mean that maybe it was Boromir who was supposed to go in the end..But anyway, this is the story of the book, and I believe there is always a good reason for it so I totally disagree with Anorien. Boromir does have a reason for being there and Tolkien would have never put a character there just to cover the space, there is more to him than that..Boromir gives the human touch in this story, shows the mortal wickness and the desire for glory, the importance of it then and his desperate need to save his city in result to fall under the power of the Ring, though he is very strong and brave..So if we start thinking about different options maybe we should think that if it wasn't for Boromir in Moria or on Caradhras maybe the others would have been dead, maybe Frodo would have tried to save Gandalf and fall into shadow too, maybe the Fellowship would never seperate and the Ring would have taken then Gimli or Legolas or even Aragorn and maybe they killed Frodo and take the Ring, and millions of other options..So what I am trying to say is that the only mistake is to think of different options when the story is just the way it is and we love it this way..

[Saxony Tarn]

Ye Gods, do i spy another post on this thread opining that Aragorn seemed a little too perfect? :: raises glass high ::

i'll have to confess i had that problem in the stories w/ Faramir as well -- he came off seeming as if he the character had been watching over Tolkien's shoulder and was determined not to screw things up (which then explains why i endorse PJ making both the brothers a bit less of archetypes and a little closer to human beings)

s.t.

(dang. now i guess i'm going to have to stock up on ink and paper and speculate on how Faramir might have handled the quest in Bor's clothing... argh... a pox on this side, for all the great story ideas these posts do evoke...)

Well, I can see this from two perspectives..

Judging by the dreams, it's very possible that because he was not meant to join the fellowship, and for that he died.

However, if Boromir had not come the mission may not have been a sucess. I think every character had a special part to play in the journey and if Faramir had come instead of Boromir I just think the fellowship would have broken later. Eventually the ring would have corrupted someone, Boromir just proved weakest, and for that he died. I'm just thinking, is it possible that maybe Boromir was meant to die? Maybe this
was his part in the journey?

OMG GET A LIFE...of all the subjects u pple could talk bout, y boromir? a mistake? omg talk about sad! get a life! Lord of the Rings is awesome, the best book/movie ever made and all that, but u dont live n middle earth. i kno im bein harsh, but its the truth. u r livin n the real world, instead of obsessively talking bout the purpose of boromir, try doin somthing useful w/your time.

[Saxony Tarn]

:: sigh ::

we have a cave troll. please do not feed the troll.

[Marigold Hedgeworth]

It's been pretty well established that Boromir was no mistake, so I'm just going to do some musing on Elrian's thoughts about the dreams.

It is said that Ulmo can advise by direct appearance, by dreams or through the music of the waters. It may be that Ulmo caused the dreams of Boromir and Faramir.

I really like this idea, and it seems to make sense, particularly when you couple it with Faramir's last 'meeting' of his brother, while he's keeping watch by the Anduin. It's hardly possible that Boromir's body stayed in its boat all that distance, 'specially after going down Rauros. Who better to 'protect' him and send him to his family than the Lord of the Waters?

Also, Faramir says about the boat that

It seemed to me...that it was almost filled with clear water, from which came the light.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but the whole luminescent water thing seems to proclaim Ulmo's intervention pretty loudly. Maybe he was wrapping up his involvement with the family -- 'washing his hands' of the whole affair. Pun intended [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] .

Mari

[Dunlondion]

well if things were chanded and farimir dod go than the ring may not have been destroyed however if he had gone Boromirs life could have been saved now there is a thought to ponder [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]
plese give me your views mailto:ringman92@hotmail.comringman92@hotmail.com</A>

[Morwen Tindomerel]

If Boromir was a mistake the mistake was Elrond and Gandalf's. Surely it must have been clear to both, and probably Aragorn too, that Boromir was a potential problem yet they include him in the company - why?

IMO because their foresight tells them that he is somehow necessary to the success of the quest, which he most certainly is.

It is Boromir's attack that panicks Frodo into leaving the Company thus saving the Ring from Saruman's grasp. And it is because the Company is scattered through the woods searching for Frodo rather than caught together in camp that Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas survive the attack.

If the quest was meant for Faramir why did the dream come even once to Boromir? Faramir's repeated dreams may simply have been because he was more susceptible to such things. Nor is there any guarentee he would have resisted the Ring any better than his brother did - granted he refuses it in Ithilien but then Boromir doesn't make his attempt until after the Ring's been working on him for some months. Had Faramir been subjected to a similar trial he too may have succumbed.

Remember their father, for all his lore and 'pure Numenorean' blood Denethor falls prey to Sauron through the Palantir. Faramir might well have fallen just as his brother did, for all his wisdom, *but* would he also have had the strength to break the Ring's hold as Boromir did? To fall and turn back is an even rarer feat than resisting the Ring's initial temptation.

Had Boromir remained under the Ring's spell he could/would have tracked Frodo to Amon Henneth and taken it. Frodo was able to flee safely *precisely* because Boromir won a victory few have equalled. Could Faramir have done the same? maybe not.

[Nyneve]

I think Boromir was meant to be in the fellowship and I do nat believe he was bad or evil. I agree that if he did not join the fellowship, it would not have been broken and they would have been captured. Also, maybe I would have a different opinion if Boromir was not my favorite character in the book! He is sooooo cool. Boromir was simply meant to be in the fellowship. Sorry, I am not backed up with reasons...

[Son of Fire]

Well, we could also say, taht as it was theorized, maybe YUlmo did give the dream to Faramir in hopes that he would go to Imladris, but when he was slow to act, he gave the dream to Boromir, knowing that he would act. Also, even in Rivendell, Boromir did not want the ring destroyed, but Faramir did not want it at first sight like Boromir. Anyway,

Re: Comments made that the fellowship wouldn't have split at Amon Hen; Wasn't Aragorn already thinking about going to Gondor before the hobbits were captured? My understanding was that he was either going to do that or help Frodo to Mordor so there was still a very good chance that the Fellowship would have split.
If this has already been addressed, my bad....I didn't have time to read all the way through but I noticced several people saying that the Fellowship would not have split without Boromir etc. etc.

I think that maybe it was a good idea that Bormomir was part of the fellowship. Remember they would have all fallen under insanity anyway. If Boromir hadn't "motivated" Frodo to leave on his own, everyone would have gone insane. Though, I don't know why Sam was not affected by the ring. Perhaps it was his love for Frodo...hmm...Please, if anyone knows why sam was not affected by the ring please tell me.

Oh...and to Elvesrhot...you can get a life. I realize that the middle earth books are great and all...but haven't you ever heard of a little something call CRITICAL ANALYSIS?!!!! I bet anything that Tolkien did them all the time(coming from Oxford and all)...besides analysing a book makes you appreciate it's complexity even more and make you yourself a better writer...as for doing something better with my time...to each his own.
no offence meant towards elvesrhot.
byebye [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

[Lord of Angmar]

Elvesrhot: There is no place to criticize others for analyzing their favorite piece of literature. If it weren't for people being analytical and discussing things, there would be nothing to learn. It is the essence of human nature that we must discover and analyze what we discover. If you have no useful input into the discussion, then please refrain from commenting.

The Barrowdowns has never been a place to bicker over petty issues and differences, please don't turn it into one.

As for Boromir, I think he played a crucial role in Frodo's departure from the Fellowship, and I do believe that he was "meant" (and I use this word loosely) to be with the fellowship and that he was meant to cause Frodo to make the decision of going to Mordor without the Company.

[ July 20, 2003: Message edited by: Lord of Angmar ]

[Lyta_Underhill]

Wasn't Aragorn already thinking about going to Gondor before the hobbits were captured? My understanding was that he was either going to do that or help Frodo to Mordor so there was still a very good chance that the Fellowship would have split.

Aragorn indeed preferred to go to Minas Tirith, but he also had said he would follow where Frodo went. If an impetus had not occurred to force Frodo into leaving surrepetitiously, Aragorn would have gone with him all the way to Mordor; what a disaster THAT could have been!

And the more I think about Aragorn's position in the Fellowship and the decisions he had to make, the less I believe that he is a 'perfect' character. I once thought he was a goody-goody, but I do not feel that way anymore. Aragorn had a hard choice to make right at this particular juncture at Parth Galen, and he could have made a very wrong decision had Frodo not left the way he did. Of course, there are other ways Frodo could have been forced to leave. He might have been pursued by Orcs and put on the Ring to escape them, then seeing his amazing vision at Amon Hen, being held tortuously between the two forces while he wore it, finally taking it off at Gandalf's urging ("Take off the Ring, fool!") and realizing all by himself that it had a terrible power and could not be brought to Minas Tirith. But it is less likely, for he would not have the shining example of Boromir to illustrate the absolute peril he would put himself and the Quest in if he were to take that road.

Also, I think Faramir would not have held out as long against the Orcs as Boromir did; Merry and Pippin would have been at their mercy much more completely. But here we do have the impetus to split the Fellowship; someone has to go after M and P before Saruman gets his hands on them. The question would be who and whether Frodo would leave of his own accord if he knew of M and P's capture...there are so many variables! It is hard to say exactly what would have happened!

Also whoever brought up the point of switching Boromir and Faramir around and putting Frodo and Sam at Boromir's mercy at Henneth Annun reflects one more of the thoughts I had had on this subject; that would be truly frightening! Would Boromir have taken the Ring outright for himself, or would he have brought it to Denethor? Denethor believed the latter, but who knows? Great discussion! Thanks! Not lame at all! I really enjoy this kind of thing, but it spins my head in circles! [img]smilies/eek.gif[/img]

Cheers,
Lyta

[Osse]

Let's just imagine that Faramir had gone in Boromir's place;
Firstly we must remember that Faramir is not his brother's equal in battle, nor is he as strong. Boromir did no more cause the breaking of the fellowship than did Aragorn, true he tried to take the ring from frodo, but that was the will of the ring itself. True Faramir would have been less likely to fall under the rings sway, but sooner or later the fellowship would have broken anyway due to this power. Had it not been boromir who was 'freed from his peril' than what's to say Gimli or Legolas would not have fallen under the rings power?

Faramir would also have fallen at Parth Galen to the Uruk-Hai for regardless of the events beforehand the Uruks would have indeed ambushed the company, and what is to say that without the threat on the ring, frodo would not have been in their path? The ring would have been captured and given to Saruman. And if the company had split ad frodo and sam had made it to Ithilien, it would have been Boromir there as captain in Faramir's stead...he would have taken the ring there and then.

Boromir's joining of the fellowship was not a mistake, but a pre-ordaned event that was as much a part of the outcome of the war as any deed of Frodo, Gandalf or any other key character.

Faramirs character was serverly corrupted in the Two Towers film. He was dignified and wise, "the blood of Numenor ran true in his veins". It saddens me that the film has to an extent ruined his persona. Plus he should have black hair!lol


sorry this post was so long. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Osse]

whoever said that Ulmo may have contributed to Farmmir and Boromirs dreams is a bloody legend! I am also of this opinion and have been for quite a while [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[ July 21, 2003: Message edited by: Osse ]

[Olorin]

I believe that the other "force" is fate, hence it was Boromr's destiny to go and the destiny of the Fellowship to break.

[Finwe]

Well, if Boromir hadn't gone, then Aragorn wouldn't have felt that it would be dangerous to take the Ring to Minas Tirith. Aragorn had indeed met Denethor long ago (as Thorongil) and knew that if the latter laid hands on the Ring, all Mordor would break loose. Aragorn probably also knew that at some point, the Fellowship would split up, because as was said in the Council of Elrond, "even an Elf army marching on Mordor couldn't do it." The entire Fellowship would have that same effect. It HAD to split up. Boromir's "fall" proved to be the perfect motivation for Frodo (and Sam) to leave.

Re: Shadowfawks
I think Sam was affected by the ring, but because he only wore it for a short time it didn't affect him too much, and like the other hobbits it didn't have a huge effect on him as it would have to a human.....I don't have quotes to back me up but I think I remember that towards the end the ring was weighing heavily on Sam's thoughts...

[Himilsillion]

The Fellowship had to split up not only because they could not defeat Sauron by themselves but, Aragorn had to restore the Kingship of Gondor and had to lead the race of men agianst Sauron. It is also easier for two smaller people to sneak into Mordor than Seven more people of bigger size or equal size. Boromirr was a big factor in the breaking of the Fellowship. If Faramirr went instead of Boromirr then the fellowship would have not been broken and might have failed. If Faramirr was part of the Fellowship he would have not captured Frodo, Sam, and Gollum. Frodo would not have had to "Trick" Gollum at the Forrbiden Pool and Gollum wouldn't have betrayed Sam and Frodo to Shelob. If Gollum did not betray the two hobbits to Shelob they would have been caught at the Tower of Cirith Ungol and would have failed.

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Several points:

I believe that Aragorn says he was planning to take Gimli (only?) with
himself, Frodo, and Sam. So the group sent would have still been relatively small, even with Leggy included. Faramir/Boromir would have gone to Minas Tirith with Merry and Pippin, or if captured, then the 3 or 4 hunters would have still pursued them. One can imagine a corrupted Faramir (even Gandalf and Galadriel feared the Ring's power of seduction).

The most interesting change might have been Boromir finding Frodo/Sam
in Ithilien. In that case the movie scenario could well have applied.

And to me it seems clear that it was Eru or a valar who sent the dreams. "Fate"
is a Northern European myth belief, which Tolkien obviously changed in his
legendarium to Eru Iluvatar.

Therefore it was a "mistake" (a sin of pride) for Boromir to insist on taking his brother's place journeying to Imladris, but one turned to good.

[Thinlómien]

I've also thought this in Gondor's point of view: would Gondor have won more battles and had smaller losses, if Boromir had led the army, not Faramir?

[Tuor of Gondolin]

Or (while pretty much ignoring the actual storyline) how about a
dynamic duo of Boromir and Faramir? It might not only have aggravated
Sauron but have at least slowed their daddy's despair.

[Boromir88]

See I don't find Boromir in the Fellowship a mistake, but what was actually ment to happen.

If we look at the Fellowship we see it's built on friends, Gandalf believing that friendship would be much better to get through the quest then powerful elf-lords that Elrond proposed. But in that there comes a lack in strength with the Fellowship.

You got four hobbits, an old man, and an elf, with two men and a dwarf. We see Boromir's strength step up when the Fellowship needs it most (Caradhras and Sarn Gebir). Without Boromir I don't see the Fellowship getting through Caradhras, he helps Aragorn carry the Hobbits, and on top of that he plows a passage way through the snow for everyone. Then he (with Aragorn) steers the boats through Sarn Gebir. So, if anything we see that he's ment to be in the Fellowship for his strength.

But, I think there's more to it than that, Boromir's there to cause what is MENT to happen, which is the break-up of the Fellowship. Frodo knows he has to leave, but he can't commit to it, and it's Boromir trying to take the Ring that gets Frodo nudged over the edge and realize "I need to get out of here, before this breaks the Fellowship."

[Child of the 7th Age]

Boromir88,

But, I think there's more to it than that, Boromir's there to cause what is MENT to happen, which is the break-up of the Fellowship. Frodo knows he has to leave, but he can't commit to it, and it's Boromir trying to take the Ring that gets Frodo nudged over the edge and realize "I need to get out of here, before this breaks the Fellowship."

I'm uncomfortable with what you've said here. Just how much was "preordained" in LotR? Some things yes, and other things were likely, but in many cases people had a choice.

Boromir had a choice. I truly believe that. He had the choice to say no to the temptation of the Ring. In that limited sense, he definitely failed since he did not say no. He had a second choice: to come to the aid of the hobbits and to feel real sorrow for what he had just done. In terms of that second choice, he prevailed and succeeded.

If we say something was "meant" to happen, it takes away the force of Boromir's moral decision. I think that is central to his character and indeed to the whole meaning of the story. There are points in the story when the greater powers seem to place a tiny unnnoticed finger on the scale and tilt the action in favor of the good guys. Perhaps a stream pops up out of nowhere in Mordor or Gandalf mentions that Bilbo was meant to find the Ring. But such instances are rare. Moral choice rather than that which is ordained is still, in my opinion, the critical factor in the tale.

Who knows what Boromir's position within the fellowship might have been if he had passed the test of the first choice....

[Boromir88]

Child, I can certainly see what your saying, and perhaps "meant" wasn't the correct word. I should perhaps say it was bound to happen, or probable to happening...perhaps it happened for the better?

Because, I agree that everyone's got choices, our life is choices. What I "meant" was to say that from the get-go the Fellowship was faced with problems, and controversy, it just seemed like it was foreshadowed in doom and despair, and that it would be for the better that Frodo got out of there, and Boromir was the main catalyst for that. If nothing else (which I think there is) his purpose for being in the Fellowship was to be that catalyst, because the Fellowship was doomed from the start, and it would be best if Frodo got away from everyone because of the Ring. (Except Sam of course).

The Ring needed somebody to go after, and Boromir is that choice, he is the easiest choice, he's got ambitions of ruling and being a mighty General to smite down Sauron and bring Gondor to Victory. It's like once Boromir was gone, the Ring again needed somebody to prey on, and in steps Gollum.

And so, you're right and that "meant" isn't the right word, but I think "purpose" would work a lot better. There's a purpose for Boromir being in the Fellowship, and a purpose for Gollum and Frodo finding eachother again....etc.

[Himilsillion]

Boromir symbolizes the struggle of humanity. He failed to resist the temptation of the ring and gave into Sauron. He redeemed himself by protecting Merry and Pippin. I agree with Child that meant is not the right word. If Boromir did not come on the Fellowship it would have broken up anyway because it was doomed from the start and the ring would have called someone else to it, I think it would probably be Merry because of his curiosity.