Beware the Ides of March - The Barrow-Downs Discussion Forum

Lord of Angmar · 09-07-2003, 09:53 AM

This is naught but a quick thought that occurred to me the last time I read the Return of the King. 'Tis probably not worthy of a new topic but there are no other threads on which it would be logical to post.

In the Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien kept a clear chronology of dates, but the dates never really seem to have any meaning outside of the text. In Return of the King, it is stated that Theoden dies on March 15, the Ides of March, the same day that Julius Caesar was murdered. The deaths do not seem to bear any relation, but do you think that Tolkien consciously intended the date to match?

The only other semblance of a parallel I could find between the two deaths (aside from the obvious fact that they were both kings/emperors) was that their deaths were caused by an enemy and actually carried out, in a sense, by friends. Cassius was the plotter of Caesar's murder, and Brutus (at least partially unwillingly) helped to carry it out. Similarly (if you can call it similar [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), the Lord of the Nazgul is the "plotter" of Theoden's death, but Theoden is actually killed by his faithful horse, Snowmane.

Ophelia · 09-07-2003, 10:25 AM

Wow.. I have never thought about it . But actually I think there is no relation between these two deaths . I think that it would be kinda hard to calculate the lenghth of the fellowship's journey specially for the Men of Rohan come to Minas Tirith at 15th of March . But actually who knows ? The only one who could answer you is dead . What a pitty...

Mariska Greenleaf · 09-07-2003, 11:27 AM

Personally I don't think there is a link, although it could be of course. But in that case I think that Tolkien would have provided us with more similar facts don't you think?

Finwe · 09-08-2003, 06:10 PM

I just think that it was one of those strange coincidences that J.R.R. Tolkien didn't think about. But then again, I don't think he was expecting us to analyze his books so deeply.

FingolfintheBold · 09-09-2003, 06:59 PM

Considering all the neat unintentional parallels in the Lord of the Rings, it isnt suprising that something like this turned up in the chronology. Was tolkien a fan of Shakespear? Ive never heard anything like that, but he might have planned out the date more because of it's significant affiliation with fate in general than because of it's part in Julius Caesar.

But either way, good call in picking that out!

Finwe · 09-09-2003, 07:11 PM

He could have been a fan of Shakespeare. After all, the old Professor was very well-versed in the classics, and he has said that he drew material from myriad sources, so who knows? He just might have gotten a little bit of inspiration from THE playwright!

Meneltarmacil · 09-09-2003, 07:40 PM

It's probably just a coincidence. You could probably find parallels with just about anything if you analyzed the books enough. I think this and other "parallels" with various other stories are just the result of over-analyzing to me.

**The Saucepan Man** · 09-09-2003, 07:45 PM

Actually, it seems that Tolkien was not a fan of Shakespeare at all. Read me to find out more, and also for some really quite compelling parallels between Tolkien's works and those of Shakespeare (Birnham Wood - need I say more? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ).

09-07-2003, 09:53 AM	#1
Lord of Angmar Tyrannus Incorporalis Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: the North Posts: 833	Beware the Ides of March This is naught but a quick thought that occurred to me the last time I read the Return of the King. 'Tis probably not worthy of a new topic but there are no other threads on which it would be logical to post. In the Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien kept a clear chronology of dates, but the dates never really seem to have any meaning outside of the text. In Return of the King, it is stated that Theoden dies on March 15, the Ides of March, the same day that Julius Caesar was murdered. The deaths do not seem to bear any relation, but do you think that Tolkien consciously intended the date to match? The only other semblance of a parallel I could find between the two deaths (aside from the obvious fact that they were both kings/emperors) was that their deaths were caused by an enemy and actually carried out, in a sense, by friends. Cassius was the plotter of Caesar's murder, and Brutus (at least partially unwillingly) helped to carry it out. Similarly (if you can call it similar [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img] ), the Lord of the Nazgul is the "plotter" of Theoden's death, but Theoden is actually killed by his faithful horse, Snowmane. __________________ ...where the instrument of intelligence is added to brute power and evil will, mankind is powerless in its own defence.

09-07-2003, 10:25 AM	#2
Ophelia Wight Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: somewhere between the sacred , silence and sweet . Posts: 169	Wow.. I have never thought about it . But actually I think there is no relation between these two deaths . I think that it would be kinda hard to calculate the lenghth of the fellowship's journey specially for the Men of Rohan come to Minas Tirith at 15th of March . But actually who knows ? The only one who could answer you is dead . What a pitty... __________________ I didn't lose my mind . It was mine to give away .

09-07-2003, 11:27 AM	#3
Mariska Greenleaf Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Dublin Posts: 1,036	Personally I don't think there is a link, although it could be of course. But in that case I think that Tolkien would have provided us with more similar facts don't you think? __________________ I hear and I forget. I see and I remember. I do and I understand.- Confucius.

09-08-2003, 06:10 PM	#4
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	I just think that it was one of those strange coincidences that J.R.R. Tolkien didn't think about. But then again, I don't think he was expecting us to analyze his books so deeply. __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-09-2003, 06:59 PM	#5
FingolfintheBold Haunting Spirit Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Somewhere between knowing my path and walking it Posts: 69	Considering all the neat unintentional parallels in the Lord of the Rings, it isnt suprising that something like this turned up in the chronology. Was tolkien a fan of Shakespear? Ive never heard anything like that, but he might have planned out the date more because of it's significant affiliation with fate in general than because of it's part in Julius Caesar. But either way, good call in picking that out! __________________ There long the golden leaves have grown, upon the branching years, while here beyond the sundering seas, now fall the Elven-tears... but if of ships I now would sing, what ship would come to me, what ship would bear me ever back, across so wide a sea?

09-09-2003, 07:11 PM	#6
Finwe Deathless Sun Join Date: May 2003 Location: The Royal Suite in the Halls of Mandos Posts: 2,609	He could have been a fan of Shakespeare. After all, the old Professor was very well-versed in the classics, and he has said that he drew material from myriad sources, so who knows? He just might have gotten a little bit of inspiration from THE playwright! __________________ But Melkor also was there, and he came to the house of Fëanor, and there he slew Finwë King of the Noldor before his doors, and spilled the first blood in the Blessed Realm; for Finwë alone had not fled from the horror of the Dark.

09-09-2003, 07:40 PM	#7
Meneltarmacil Ghost Prince of Cardolan Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: The bottom of the ocean, discussing philosophy with a giant squid Posts: 2,254	It's probably just a coincidence. You could probably find parallels with just about anything if you analyzed the books enough. I think this and other "parallels" with various other stories are just the result of over-analyzing to me. __________________ I ♣ baby seals.

09-09-2003, 07:45 PM	#8
The Saucepan Man Corpus Cacophonous Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: A green and pleasant land Posts: 8,390	Actually, it seems that Tolkien was not a fan of Shakespeare at all. Read me to find out more, and also for some really quite compelling parallels between Tolkien's works and those of Shakespeare (Birnham Wood - need I say more? [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img] ). __________________ Do you mind? I'm busy doing the fishstick. It's a very delicate state of mind!