The Root of all Evil.

[Boromir88]

We all know of that saying "Money is the root of all evil," but what is the "root of evil" in Tolkien? (If there is one). Well, it seems to be gold...

It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' or conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend - but not silver.~Morgoth's Ring

Gold seems to be the connection to the evil characters in Tolkien's stories. There's the Barrow-wights, Dragon's hoards, it almost caused Thorin's dwarves to cause much bloodshed. And of course the One Ring, being a simple "band of gold."

Then there is the case between Boromir's gold belts and Merry and Pippin's silver belts. They are laid directly one after the other in Farewell to Lorien. While, I don't think it's Tolkien trying to say Boromir's evil, I think it foreshadows and symbolizes his draw to gold, most specifically his lure to the Ring. Where Merry and Pippin were given belts of Silver and Tolkien goest out to specifically say that Silver has no evil trend like gold. It's sort of like the "ungold."

So, why does Tolkien choose gold to tie in with "evil?" What is it specifically about gold that Tolkien says it tends to have an evil trend? And why is Silver not evil? What makes it pure and good and not connected to evil the way gold is?

[Alcarillo]

Well, gold was the original color of money when it was used for coinage, and thus symbolic of greed. Silver's good connotations might have to do with its white-ish quality, and white symbolizes purity.

[Boromir88]

Good thoughts on gold, it was the basing for money. For our paper to be worth something we need gold to back it. So, I guess the saying should be "Gold is the root of all evil," because without it, the paper money would be worthless.

Also, there's the stories of the conquistadores and other ancient stories of people who are so driven by gold they spend their life and dedication ever searching for it in hopes of finding it. And in many cases killed over gold. So, I think gold has a historical background to it to explain why Tolkien makes the connection.

I'm still not sold on silver. I don't know what is it about silver that makes it purer than gold, and so...ungold?

[alatar]

Are we speaking strictly about the metal or does the 'color' count? If so, I would point out the obvious "Golden Wood" and of course the "Lady" therein, whose hair was like gold. Also, is not the light of Laurelin golden? These would offset the negative observations.

If we are restricted to the metal, then I wonder if it is the value of the metal (gold traditionally valued more than silver) that is the issue. Surely mithril ("true silver") is much more prized than even gold, but I thnk that it is so rare and 'magical' that it is only used sparingly in the story, and so maybe not given as much thought. Then again, mithril was the downfall of the Dwarves at Khazad-dûm yet also was the saviour of Frodo. Hmmm...

Will give it more thought.

[Nuranar]

Aha, one of the most mis-quoted sentences in the entire Bible!

"For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil." (I Timothy 6:10a, NIV, emphasis mine. Anyone want to share another translation? My KJV has hidden itself...)

The key operator there is that the money itself isn't the problem. It's the untoward lust for it that leads to evil.

If something is the root of all kinds of evil, does that make it evil itself? As alatar observed, if "gold" in all forms is the root of evil for Tolkien, what does that say about the Galadriel and the Golden Wood? And what of Laurelin? If I made a list of things unmarred and without evil, the Golden Tree of Valinor would be pretty high up there.

~ Nuranar, who will be late for class unless she cuts her eloquence short

[Kath]

Nuranar you beat me to it!

I completely agree that it is the lust for gold/money and not gold/money itself that causes the problems. The desire to have more than you have is the same whether in the real world with money or in Middle-Earth with the Ring. Everyone who has gone after the Ring has wanted it because it will bring them more than they have, whether that be power or strength.

[Boromir88]

Nuranar, thanks for pointing out the misquoted quote, I think that does hold significance. Gold itself isn't evil, but those who desire it to get filthy rich are.

On the thing with Galadriel's "golden hair," and the "golden wood," the quote I gave Tolkien specifically refers it to the metal. As he compares it with silver, and comes out and says gold has an evil trend, silver doesn't. I think it's the actual metal, where the things and places that have a golden color can't be applied.

[Mithalwen]

Well others have beaten me to correcting the quotation but I would point out Galadriel's blessing of Gimli - that his hand should flow with gold but over him gold should have no dominion? Here I think gold is used to mean treasure in general.

I don't think Tolkien sets silver above gold in that way. They are generally balanced - LAurelin and Telperion (and their latterday representetives the white tree found by Aragorn and the Party Tree), Minas Anor is balanced by Minas Ithil and Galadriel's gold with Celeborn's silver - I think gold has the upper hand in those cases!! It is taste - whether you prefer day or night - and the elves at least loved the stars most (literally and figuratively jewels in the night sky ). The most notable conflicts were over jewels (Silmarils, Arkenstone..) .

the One RIng being a notable exception - it's seeming ordinariness, making it seem so sinister. Unheated it is basically a wedding band (and how wierd is it hearing of people using replicas as such!) such as is used today and certainly by the elves then.

Other points that may be relevant:
Thranduil's fondness for treasure was noted and it was silver and pearls that he loved best if I recall rightly?

Elvish distinguishes between Gold as a metal and as a colour - malta and laure...

[drigel]

I am going to lift some quotes here. They are from a Martinez essay (Magic by Melkor, No Returns Accepted), where he used quotes from "Notes on motives in the Silmarillion":

"...Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent. (It was this Morgoth-element in matter, indeed, which was a prerequisite for such 'magic' and other evils as Sauron practised with it and upon it.)"

and

It is quite possible, of course, that certain 'elements' of conditions of matter had attracted Morgoth's special attention (mainly, unless in the remote past, for reasons of his own plans). For example, all gold (in Middle-earth) seems to have had a specially 'evil' trend -- but not silver. Water is represented as being almost entirely free of Morgoth. (This, of course, does not mean that any particular sea, stream, river, well, or even vessel of water could not be poisoned or defiled -- as all things could.)

I am also leaning toward Martinez theory concerning mithril. Possibly what made mithril so special was the absence of the Morgoth element.

[Gurthang]

Originally posted by drigel

So could it then be said that Morgoth's will was also in the Ring? If Morgoth was ever present in the element of Gold, he must have had some power in the Ring also. Which brings in an interesting proposition: Would the Ring have been as strong/potent/powerful if it had been made of, oh say, Mithril? I chance that it would not have been.

But why then did Morgoth choose Gold? Of all the choices to pick as an element to corrupt, why that? Surely he could not have known the power it would have over the Three Kindreds, especially Dwarves and Men? Or perhaps he simply wanted to mar(sp) the fairest thing that Arda had to offer.

In any case, I think it is interesting that we are talking about gold being the source of evil, yet that 'evil' within gold comes from Morgoth, as drigel's post states above. Gold in and of itself is not evil, but it is that power of lust that Morgoth placed into it and around it. So that those who see it long for it and are often corrupted by it. So then the 'Root of all Evil' then goes back simply to Morgoth. Not a very deep root, now is it.

I would say that Gold is somewhat like the trunk and branches of that tree. Morgoth is the root, creates malice and sends it through gold up to his leaves and fruit. Now there are probably a great number of things that could be put in place as the trunk, but gold does fit well.

[drigel]

It's an interesting subject.

Would the Ring have been as strong/potent/powerful if it had been made of, oh say, Mithril?

I would say (if one subscribes to the idea that mithril is M-free) that mabye a ring of power would be less apt for evil purposes, more potent for benevolent use..?..?

Martinez' was also proposing in his essay the idea that that the reason dragons hoarded gold (and gems etc.) was that they sustained themselves on it. I suppose the thought being that laying on a big pile of gold, a dragon could absorb some of the M element..?..?

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

Gold itself isn't evil, but those who desire it to get filthy rich are. (B88)

On the thing with Galadriel's "golden hair" . . . (B88)

These two quotes came to me together, and it hit me. Would Fëanor's future greedy love for the Silmarilli stem from his desire to get the gold (and silver) light--from Galadriel's hair, for example?

I remember that from his speech before the Noldor of the Fish--I mean Túna--he said something like, "When we recover the Silmarils from Morgoth, we alone shall be masters of the unsullied light." What, is light a marketable commodity now, too? What's with this greed for light?

[Eledhewin Ilanora]

well ok..the root of evil in LOTR is gold? You mean gold ring eg.?

Now arent that just like scraping the surface? I mean are Sauron & Saruman and others craving for the gold? How bout the uruks & orcs?

Lets talk about Gollum? Do you think he was tuned into an evil being for gold?

Nope.i believe the root of evil in LOTR is the greed for power. Power to control, power to manipulate, Power to destroy, Power to be invincible and untouchable etc etc.

Power!!!!!!

[Ainaserkewen]

Evil for me has always been defined by two words: Vanity and corruption.

Gold, and power for that matter, would play towards vanity and be corruptive I suppose.

[Holbytlass]

Originally Posted by Eledhewin Ilanora

Lets talk about Gollum? Do you think he was tuned into an evil being for gold?
Nope.i believe the root of evil in LOTR is the greed for power. Power to control, power to manipulate, Power to destroy, Power to be invincible and untouchable etc etc.Power!!!!!!

I have to differ a little about Gollum. It was the gold that caused him to murder Deagol in the first place but it was not power. Even he didn't try to usurp his grandmother when he had the ring.

Originally Posted by Nuranar

The key operator there is that the money itself isn't the problem. It's the untoward lust for it that leads to evil.

It all leads back to lust (of whatever). Smeagol lusted the ring itself and murdered then he lusted secrets to use against his own kin that led to his outcast.
Even 'power' is not listed in the 7 deadliest sins because 'power' can be used for good, but 'lust' is listed becausae anything we desire to obsession is never good.

[Nuranar]

Power and money (or gold) aren't synonymous - but it's remarkable how closely related they are. We all want more money than we've got; if you had it, what would you do with it? Buy things. Keep increasing the money and you can buy more and bigger things, and eventually you can buy anything. If that's all money can do, why are there so many multi-millionaires? With great money comes great power. And power leads to more money. They support each other.

Originally Posted by Holbytlass

Even 'power' is not listed in the 7 deadliest sins because 'power' can be used for good, but 'lust' is listed becausae anything we desire to obsession is never good.

Very good point. Power itself, like money, is no evil; after all, try to abolish power and you abolish government. (Some might argue that's not a bad thing - but anarchy puts power in the hands of the rich, forceful, and/or physically strong. Power doesn't just disappear.) It's the abuse of power that's the problem: tyranny, oppression, injustice, cruelty. And the love of money can be a root of that particular evil.

Are there any instances of a rise to power taking place without money and not resulting in wealth?

[Mithalwen]

Originally Posted by Nuranar

Are there any instances of a rise to power taking place without money and not resulting in wealth?

How about Gandhi..... of course such people are so dangerous they get killed... they subvert the way the world works too much .......

I think power is bound up with freedom. We want freedom but exercising our freedom often makes other people less free - "Freedom without justice grows up into slavery"

[Nuranar]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

I think power is bound up with freedom. We want freedom but exercising our freedom often makes other people less free

I remember reading how the U.S. founders really struggled with the idea of greater freedom. For me, "freedom" and "liberty" don't mean quite the same thing. To me, liberty implies less control, both external and personal. The next step is license. Witness the French Revolution. It's the paradox that true freedom isn't possible without the rule of law. Power isn't going to go away; it's just a question of distributing it in the best way for everyone.

I think we're wandering a bit, though. *blush*

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, why does Tolkien choose gold to tie in with "evil?" What is it specifically about gold that Tolkien says it tends to have an evil trend? And why is Silver not evil? What makes it pure and good and not connected to evil the way gold is?

We've established that it's not the gold/money/valuable itself that's evi. And Mithalwen pointed out that silver and gold aren't necessarily opposites, just valued and used differently. So it's either Morgoth's power within gold, or the elemental lust for gold, that leads to evil. I personally still hold to the second; gold is not always a definite force for evil, whereas when it does seem to cause problems, there's a definite someone who's wanting it too badly.

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

The most notable conflicts were over jewels (Silmarils, Arkenstone..)

This supports the original quote: The love of money is A root of all kinds of evil. The Silmarils and the Arkenstone were not evil in and of themselves. Perhaps their value and worth cast a "spell" of sorts. But in the end, conflict came about because of people who desired them beyond wisdom or reason. In Tolkien's world, perhaps the love of great jewels is another root of evil.

[Lhunardawen]

Originally Posted by Mithalwen

Well others have beaten me to correcting the quotation but I would point out Galadriel's blessing of Gimli - that his hand should flow with gold but over him gold should have no dominion?

That Galadriel had to say that 'gold should have no dominion' over Gimli emphasizes in a way that gold, or the love of it, really has the tendency to corrupt. It was necessary to say it so that her blessing would not be marred; Gimli would just have gold in his hands (and perhaps be generous with it, as the word flow implies) yet not succumb to a continual lust for more of it, as most people who come into possession of gold do.

[Essex]

The way I read Tolkien's works is that there is the possibility for evil in all of us. i.e. Evil is inherent in eveyone and everything. It is in our day to day actions that we sweep aside our temptation to fall into this evil. In the Christian Faith, even Satan was once an Angel, who finally sucumbed to Evil.

I see this view of 'inherent evil' most clearly in the Silmarillion. I think that Elves are, at times, a vindictive, nasty, zealous race of beings, not as a group of higher, more morally correct people (Angelic if you want) as I saw them before I read the Silmarillion.

After reading the book, I realised that they are no worse or better than any other race on Middle-earth, and are supceptible to Evil along with everyone else.

[Gurthang]

Yes, I agree Essex. The elves seemed to be a 'higher' race when I read LotR. Yet the Silmarillion really evens the playing field. The only thing that I think really makes the difference between elves and men is that the elves don't follow after a Dark Lord, whereas some Men do. The elves knew Morgoth at his cruelest, and so hated him and never trusted him, and likewise to his servant, Sauron. Yet Men did not ever truly see Morgoth and so when he came first to them they trusted him, and followed him into darkness. The Elves never followed an evil leader, but Men did/do.

But I would like to point out that the elves 'inherent evil', as Essex called it, was brought out by the Silmarils being stolen. Many of the Elves so lusted the Silmarils that they were willing to do almost anything to get them back, including the Kinslaying. That points seems to point back to the fact that the love of wealth, jewels in this case, was the root of evil. Both in the fact that Morgoth lusted the Silmarils and that the Elves were willing to do anything to get their beloved treasure back.

[Lolidir]

As has been said before the greater evil in LOTR, and in perhaps the world today, is power. In LOTR Sauron is not lusting the gold ring, but the power it holds. If he gets it back then he can regain his physical form and control the world. What do you need to control? Power. Saruman, he also wanted the ring for its power, ordered that the haflings be brought to him. Why was this? Do you think that a wizard, who could strike fear in the hearts of people, wanted gold? It was the power that the ring possesed. And did Gandalf not say in chapter 2 of the Fellowship, The Shadow of the Past, "with that power I should have power too great and terrible" when Frodo offered him the ring? The quote continues a little more, but for the sake of this deiscussion that should be enough. So if you think about it, the real evil in LOTR is the lust for power, not gold. Gold is merely a symbol for it as money is for today. People place things, or objects as symbols of power. eg. the Crowned jewles of England or the Silmarils. The evil in LOTR is the lust for power.

[Bêthberry]

Oh my, Boro, I clicked on this thinking it might be a discussion of the source of Old Man Willow's evil intent against the hobbits.

[Gurthang]

But, Lolidir, is it not true that money is power?

[Lolidir]

The root of evil in LOTR and possibly in the world today, is the lust for power and the way you use that power. For instance Sauron had power and chose to take over the world, only leading him to lust more power and so on and so forth. Gandalf, on the other hand had great power but used it to do good. So its not just power, but the lust for power and the way you use your power.


It is in today's world money is power, but why would gold or money hold any value to Sauron or Saruman? Sauron was only a spirit so to speak, and Saruman was a wizard. What use of money would a spirit of a wizard have? That is the point I guess I am trying to make. Sauron only needs the ring back to gain his form and be all powerfull again. It's not the fact that the ring is gold. And Saruman knows the power that the ring has. Does anyone see where I am going with this? I mean to me it makes sence but does anyone else see it?

Besides Power is measured in a lot of things, whether it is land in the old days, money in many of todays cultures, but in others like the tribes of the jungles its a totally different thing like sheep or cows or something.

[Nuranar]

Lolidir, I understand what you're saying. Boromir88 originally asked several questions:

Originally Posted by Boromir88

So, why does Tolkien choose gold to tie in with "evil?" What is it specifically about gold that Tolkien says it tends to have an evil trend? And why is Silver not evil? What makes it pure and good and not connected to evil the way gold is?

But he was assuming that gold (or an intemperate desire for it) is the root of evil in Tolkien's world. You say:

Originally Posted by Lolidir

The root of evil in LOTR and possibly in the world today, is the lust for power and the way you use that power.

You also point out that gold or money as such is of little use to Sauron or Saruman; what they strove for was power. At least, this is how I understand your argument.

Originally Posted by Gurthang

is it not true that money is power?

In many ways gold/money can be power, and vice versa. But I think we're getting a little confused. That is not a mutally inclusive definition. You can't write

Money = Power

and leave it at that. Think of a Venn diagram: Two overlapping circles, one labeled Money and the other Power. The area where they overlap does represent Money = Power. Think of Big Business. But the areas that don't overlap show those circumstances where one does not give the other. Money without Power is Robinson Crusoe and his gold: On a deserted island, money doesn't mean power. It means nothing. Power without Money is an even smaller area, but it's there. I think C. S. Lewis wrote about his experience at school as being one; as a society it was virtually moneyless but there was nevertheless a rigid, even vicious, power hierarchy.

All that said, I don't think that the desire for either gold/money or power is THE root of evil, either in Tolkien's world or this. Honestly, I cannot separate my analysis from the true version of the saying: "The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil." I believe this is completely true. Take this as my beginning assumption, if you will. There are two key points that haven't been really discussed:

1. It says A root. Implication: There is more than one root of evil. You cannot attribute all evil to the love of money. If it could, "a" would have been "the."
2. It says "all kinds of evil." - not one kind, not all evil. NASB says "sorts." This is a general statement - "Loving money can lead to lots of bad things." Not one specfic bad thing. Not every bad thing. This, too, implies that there is more than one root of evil.

I think that both the desire for gold and the desire for power are roots of evil, in this and other worlds. B88 and Lolidir have given examples of both. The common thread, though, is that immoderate lust for something not yet possessed, for something more. So if the love of power is also a root of all sorts of evil, what else is there? Are there other examples of evil that aren't attributable to a love for either power or money?

[Lolidir]

Originally Posted by Nuranar

The common thread, though, is that immoderate lust for something not yet possessed, for something more. So if the love of power is also a root of all sorts of evil, what else is there? Are there other examples of evil that aren't attributable to a love for either power or money?

Nicely put. The lust for something not yet possessed is A root of evil. I was just watching CSI tonight and it was about a case in witch a young girl was taken advantage of, if you get what I'm saying. In that case it was a lust for something entirely different from power or money.

As for other roots of evil, I think it is a matter of how a person's mind works. If they have a conscience or not, how far they are willing to go to get what they want. Whether thats another root or the same one expressed in different words I dont know, but thats another way to look at it.