Aman, Paradise for Elves, Hell for Men

[Maédhros]

Do you think that Men, if allowed to go to Aman, would find that it was paradise, or would it turn and become Hell. Could they cohabit with the beings there and accept their inheritance or grow and become jealous of its inhabitants.

[Aldagrim Proudfoot]

Would they know where the elves were, or would they stay in the Halls of Mandos? If it's the second case, I don't think it would be like Hell, unless it should be for some.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Well I see two possiblities.

One - A paradise because they would be free from the influence of Morgoth, Sauron, or any other evil. True this wasn't the case for the Noldor, but Melkor was loose then. If man is informed that death is his gift, then all is well.

Two - This sounds very similar to the Fall of Numenor, man's jealousy over the immortals. Man would cause much woe, and they would be exiled from Aman.

I would like to think that the former would be the case if man was allowed into Aman. The whole reason why Numenor fell was man's ingorance due to a lack of direct elven influence. Look at the Edain in Beleriand. They lived side by side with the elves and they cared little about their death, accepting it instead of trying to prolong it. I believe with proper influence and teaching by both elves and ainur, then men could live in Aman peacefully with little or no harm.

But then again, I'm a optimist.

[Maédhros]

One - A paradise because they would be free from the influence of Morgoth, Sauron, or any other evil. True this wasn't the case for the Noldor, but Melkor was loose then. If man is informed that death is his gift, then all is well.

How could the Valar teach to men that death was a gift to them, if Men would age and wither, while the Valar and Eldar would endure in age and joy. How can that be explained? How can men not be jealous of that?

Two - This sounds very similar to the Fall of Numenor, man's jealousy over the immortals. Man would cause much woe, and they would be exiled from Aman.

I agree with this.

Would they know where the elves were, or would they stay in the Halls of Mandos? If it's the second case, I don't think it would be like Hell, unless it should be for some.

When I say Aman, i don't mean the Hall of Mandos.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

How could the Valar teach to men that death was a gift to them, if Men would age and wither, while the Valar and Eldar would endure in age and joy. How can that be explained? How can men not be jealous of that?

Many people I know, when given the question "If given the choice, would you want to be immortal?" and the response was the same all around, "No". Why? Because over time, people come to realize that life would get tedious, and death would be welcomed eventually. The elves grew weary of life, this is known. That is why death was a gift in the first place. The elves would teach this to men, and under the proper influence, they would realize this, if not from then, then on their own.

The main reason why Numenor fell was Sauron's influence. If someone keeps whispering in your ear that something is wrong, then you will begin to think so yourself. If Aman would stay clean of evil, then men would not have this little voice saying, "You are suffering, revolt!" and thus, they would become wiser to their gift.

It's all about your environment and experiences. MHO

[Maédhros]

If Aman would stay clean of evil, then men would not have this little voice saying, "You are suffering, revolt!" and thus, they would become wiser to their gift.

I think that eventually, Men would revolt and hate the Valar. I think that there is a reason why Eru forbid Men from coming to Aman in the first place.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

So you think Eru forbides men from entering Aman because they will rebel against the very gift that he made for them? Would this make sense? Why give the gift it will cause turmoil?

[Belin]

I think it depends on the individual. I think of Earendil as more man-like than Elf-like even though he chose to be an Elf (he felt more in tune with Men)and he did just fine in Aman. Others, I imagine, would not.

Of course, if your argument is that jealousy of immortality would be what would lead to revolt, Earendil wouldn't matter very much, since he was granted immortality. But, as Orofacion points out, that would all depend on their wisdom and their ability to understand mortality (very difficult; nobody seems to understand it in the Sil). So, as I say, it would depend on the individual. Skipping ahead to the Third Age, I'd say Aragorn would probably do okay. Denethor, um, no.

--Belin Ibaimendi

[ July 03, 2002: Message edited by: Belin ]

[Maédhros]

So you think Eru forbides men from entering Aman because they will rebel against the very gift that he made for them? Would this make sense? Why give the gift it will cause turmoil?

From Morgoth's Ring: Aman and Mortal Men

To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would ‘wither even as a moth in a flame to bright’.

Of course, if your argument is that jealousy of immortality would be what would lead to revolt, Earendil wouldn't matter very much, since he was granted immortality. But, as Orofacion points out, that would all depend on their wisdom and their ability to understand mortality (very difficult; nobody seems to understand it in the Sil).

Speaking of Men in Aman

But in Aman such a creature would be a fleeting thing, the most swift-passing of all beasts. For his whole life would last little more than one half-year, and while all other living creatures would seem to him hardly to change, but to remain steadfast in life and joy with hope of endless years undimmed, he would rise and pass – even as upon Earth the grass may rise in spring and wither ere the winter. Then he would become filled with envy, deeming himself a victim of injustice, denied the graces given to all other things. He would not value what he had, but feeling that he was among the least and most despised of all creatures, he would grow soon to contemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed. He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.

They would be jealous of them regardless. Maybe few individuals would accept it, but not the majority.

[Belin]

First of all, I would like to know, in your quote:

To the Númenóreans they said that they did so because Eru had forbidden to admit Men to the Blessed Realm; and they declared also that Men would not there be blessed (as they imagined) but accursed, and would ‘wither even as a moth in a flame to bright’.

...who are they? Can they be trusted? Do they know?

I can't say anything about "the majority," (I don't know any of them [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img] )but in Middle-Earth, at least, it's clear that not everyone wants immortality; elves and half-elves become mortal and the Edain live peacefully with the Elves. Perhaps, as you suggest, it would be different in Aman. But why?

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Maédhros]

...who are they? Can they be trusted? Do they know?

They are of course the Valar.

But the Lords of Valinor forbade them to sail so far westward that the coasts of Númenor could no longer be seen; and for long the Dúnedain were content, though they did not fully understand the purpose of this ban. But the design of Manwë was that the Númenóreans should not be tempted to seek for the Blessed Realm, nor desire to overpass the limits set to their bliss, becoming enamoured of the immortality of the Valar and the Eldar and the lands where all things endure.

I guess they know what they're talking about.

Perhaps, as you suggest, it would be different in Aman. But why?

This would inevitably happen:

. Then he would become filled with envy, deeming himself a victim of injustice, denied the graces given to all other things. He would not value what he had, but feeling that he was among the least and most despised of all creatures, he would grow soon to contemn his manhood, and hate those more richly endowed. He would not escape the fear and sorrow of his swift mortality that is his lot upon Earth, in Arda Marred, but would be burdened by it unbearably to the loss of all delight.

As to why, I would say perhaps, human nature.

[Belin]

Well, can't argue with that. (Of course, whether I will or not remains to be seen [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img] ) I still wonder about a couple of things, however. First off, does this apply to all Men, or just Numenoreans?

Secondly, and (I think) more interestingly, we notice that many of the elves were not well-suited to live in Aman either.. that they revolted as well. Is there a connection here, by any chance? Are the Children of Iluvatar simply ill-suited for Aman on the whole? Is the desire for immortality on the part of Men simply one manifestation of this?......hmm.

(And, yes, these are meant as actual questions, not an argument clothed as questions... It seems to me that such a connection would be interesting, but I just had this idea, see.)

--Belin Ibaimendi

[Maédhros]

First off, does this apply to all Men, or just Numenoreans?

I suppose it would. According what is said in Morgoth's Ring.

Secondly, and (I think) more interestingly, we notice that many of the elves were not well-suited to live in Aman either.. that they revolted as well. Is there a connection here, by any chance? Are the Children of Iluvatar simply ill-suited for Aman on the whole? Is the desire for immortality on the part of Men simply one manifestation of this?......hmm.

An excellent question of course.
But you have to remember that when Feanaro revolted in Aman, there was the presence of Melkor that tainted Aman. Would they have revolted otherwise, i don't think so.
Men i think would ultimately envy the elves and Valar. Wouldn't you, if all of your neighboors and friends were inmortal and had inmortal joy.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

...there was the presence of Melkor that tainted Aman

And in Numenor, there was the presence of Sauron.

I'm going to go back to something I said earlier. The men in Beleriand had no problem dying, there was no revolt against elves. Men would accept their gift accordingly, and with war going on. Why then would they not live harmoniously with the elves and Valar in Aman?

[Maédhros]

The men in Beleriand had no problem dying, there was no revolt against elves. Men would accept their gift accordingly, and with war going on. Why then would they not live harmoniously with the elves and Valar in Aman?

I think that the difference would be time in Valinor.
From Morgoth's Ring: Aman

The unit, or Valian Year, was thus not in Aman related to the natural rates of ‘growth’ of any person or thing that dwelt there. Time in Aman was actual time, not merely a mode of perception. As, say, 100 years went by in Middle-earth as part of Arda, so 100 years passed in Aman, which was also a part of Arda. It was, however, the fact that the Elvish speed of ‘growth’ accorded with the unit of Valian time † that made it possible for the Valar to bring the Eldar to dwell in Aman. In one Valian year the Eldar dwelling there grew and developed in much the same way as mortals did in one year upon Middle-earth. In recording the events in Aman, therefore, we may as did the Eldar themselves use the Valian unit, though we must not forget that within such ‘year’ the Eldar enjoyed an immense series of delights and achievements which even the most gifted of Men could not accomplish in twelve times twelwe mortal years. Nonetheless the Eldar ‘aged’ at the same speed in Aman as they had done in their beginning upon Middle-earth.

But since Aman was made for the Valar, that they might have peace and delight therein, all those creatures that were thither transplanted or were trained or bred or brought into being for the purpose of inhabitation in Aman were given a speed of growth such that one year of life natural to their kinds on Earth should in Aman be one Valian Year.

For the Eldar this was a source of joy. For in Aman the world appeared to them as it does to Men on Earth, but without the shadow of death soon to come. Whereas on Earth to them all things in comparison with themselves were fleeting, swift to change and die or pass away, in Aman they endured and did not so soon cheat love with their mortality.

[akhtene]

The men in Beleriand had no problem dying, there was no revolt against elves. Men would accept their gift accordingly, and with war going on.

I think that’s because Beleriand was Men’s homeland. They died in wars defending their home, or having accomplished some task on Earth, or just getting weary of Earth hardships. Besides I don’t suppose many of Men really had dealings with elves – only chosen Houses, and those were strong-willed and taught by elves.
I really think that the cornerstone of the problem is not immortality as such, but life-span. Yes, even elves become weary of the world, but after thousands of years of living in it! I’m afraid most Men would consider the situation simply unfair, and no teaching will help. Especially if they are to be taught by someone who is in no hurry to leave this world… It’s like giving one child a sweet but telling another that he will be blessed with good teeth [img]smilies/confused.gif[/img]

Another question – what are Men going to do in Aman? I don’t suppose all will be content with idleness, but they will hardly be rivals to elves and more so Valar. How would they feel? As someone second-rate in everything? I haven’t read much of Tolkien, but from Maedros’s posts I gather that Eru was against Men coming to Aman, and I think He was absolutely right in this.

[Orofacion of the Vanyar]

Besides I don’t suppose many of Men really had dealings with elves – only chosen Houses, and those were strong-willed and taught by elves.

Yes, and there'd be plenty of elves and even Valar there to teach.

Well it's obvious that I share a different outlook on things than others here. I guess I'm too much of a idealist. [img]smilies/wink.gif[/img]

All I'm saying is that Aman is a paradise, free from evil since Melkor is imprisoned. If men were taken over who were uninfluenced by the evils of Middle Earth, then they would find it a magnificent place, and live in peace till they passed. My opinion, nothing more.

[ July 07, 2002: Message edited by: Orofacion of the Vanyar ]

[Daniel Telcontar]

The human nature is probably not suited for such happiness. They would not be contempt by sitting idle, and be ruled by others, such as the elves and Valar. I'm afraid humans can't be brought together with Aman. [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]