Moraquandi question

[Amathoronion]

I know about the dark elfs that do not go into the light and stay in the wood but in the simirals it says that the moraquandi are the elfs that never saw the light of the two trees

So are they the dark elfs that where born out of the time of the trees or the elfs that wandered and only like the darkness

[Legolas]

I would say only the elves who lived at the time of the Two Trees and their descendents.

I thought the Dark Elves were those that refused the journey to Valinor all-together. There were those that took the march, of which most arrived but some got lost (or changed their minds). Then the Noldolie that went to Valinor but returned to Middle Earth.

Does that make any sense?

[Beren87]

Oh lol, and Amathoronion, I don't know if your siggy came from a quote or what but you misspelled the word knowledge. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Joy]

The Moriquendi were the Elves that never saw the light of the Two Trees, Elrond and Celeborn were two examples, as they were born in Middle Earth.

Those the refused the journey to Valinor were called The Avari.

[Legolas]

Note: Elrond was not an elf.

[Amathoronion]

Hey guys thanks for the help.I have pretty bad dislexia although I know how to spell things correctly it is mispelled.So please bear that in mind when I post.

Thanks for the help!!!

[Orald]

We do not know for certain if Celeborn was in Valinor or not, there is more than one version of his beginnings.

The Avari and all the elves that strayed from the journey at any point that would have prevented them from reaching Valinor at the time of the Two Trees are considered Moriquendi. This include even the Sindar, although they are called grey elves because of their dealings with Melian. The term Moriquendi does not include the decendents of the Caliquendi that had not seen the light of the Two Trees, just as Legalos said.

[Angry Hill Troll]

If I remember correctly, the terms caliquendi and moriquendi were coined by the Noldor returning to ME in the First Age to (derisively) differentiate themselves from the other elves of ME who had never been to Valinor or seen the Trees.

Note that King Thingol was actually a caliquendi since he was brought to Valinor along with Ingwë and Finwë to see the Trees and convice the elves to make the great journey. With this one exception, all the other sindarin elves were moriquendi.

All the elves born after the trees were destroyed, whether in Valinor or ME, are moriquendi.

[burrahobbit]

All the elves born after the trees were destroyed, whether in Valinor or ME, are moriquendi.

Nope. You've got the rest down pat, though. Except maybe the origin of the terms, do you have a source for that? It sounds like something that some of the Noldor would do, but I don't remember reading about it.

[Orald]

HoME 11:

The Quenya forms were Kalaquendi and Moriquendi. The Kalaquendi in Quenya applied only to the Elves who actually lived or had lived in Aman; and the Moriquendi was applied to all others, whether they had come on the March or not. The latter were regarded as greatly inferior to the Kalaquendi, who had experienced the Light of Valinor, and had also acquired far greater knowledge and powers by their association with the Valar and Maiar.
In the period of Exile the Ñoldor modified their use of these terms, which was offensive to the Sindar. Kalaquendi went out of use, except in written Ñoldorin lore. Moriquendi was now applied to all other Elves, except the Ñoldor and Sindar, that is to Avari or to any kind of Elves that at the time of the coming of the Ñoldor had not long dwelt in Beleriand and were not subjects of Elwë. It was never applied, however, to any but Elvish peoples. The old distinction, when made, was represented by the new terms Amanyar 'those of Aman', and Úamanyar or Úmanyar 'those not of Aman', beside the longer forms Amaneldi and Úmaneldi.

The quote doesn't say anything of elves that were born after the DoV, but it could be construed that they would be of the moriquendi. Of course I think this is a big mistake, because the decendents of the Caliquendi who ended up in Middle Earth were just slightly worse off, if any, than the decendents of the Caliquendi who stayed in Valinor after the DoV. And since the decendents of the Caliquendi that remained in Valinor would be considered Caliquendi themselves, decendents of the Caliquendi that went to Middle-Earth should be considered thus.

Intermarriage of Caliquendi and Moriquendi would just complicate things and I am not sure what would be what. In that scenario I would have to abandon the terms moriquendi and caliquendi in favor of the terms amanyar and umanyar, which the elves apparently did as well.