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#1 |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
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I always have this problem when analyzing texts: I know something is important, but I don't know why, or what it means.
Why are the marriages of Beren and Lúthien, and Tuor and Idril, and Aragorn and Arwen important? I know through them better blood, Elven blood came into Men's gene pool, but what's the literary message here? Why is it always the girl who was immortal? Why couldn't the guy be an elf and have to become mortal? I can't think of an answer to this one that doesn't involve sexism and making fun of Elven grace. What made Tuor so special that he could become counted among the Elves, when Lúthien and Arwen had to become mortal? Maybe Aragorn was too far down with Men through the Ages to be counted Elven, but Beren is a direct decendent of Bëor of the First House of the Edain and valiant enough to oppose Morgoth even in Taur-Nu-Fuin. Tuor *checks* okay, he lived as a slave and outlaw, but fighting against Easterlings, not Sauron. It seems Turgon let Tuor marry Idril mostly because he was the son of Huor, who had fought valiantly by Turgon's side in the Dagor Aglareb, and little because of Tuor's own greatness. And Tuor was favored by Ulmo; but why?
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Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
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#2 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
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As to why it is the women that have to make this sacrifice and not the men I don't know. For a sexist argument toward men rather than women maybe Tolkien felt that women were more likely to have the greatness of heart to make this kind of a sacrifice.
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“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
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#3 | |
Dead Serious
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The reason, it would seem, is that this mirrors Tolkien's own life. Certainly, he wrote several times about his own life experience with his wife (Edith) was a major inspiration for the tale of Beren and Luthien. Tolkien very much felt like an unworthy Beren winning the hand of the beautiful Elven princess. So much that on their tombstones, the only quotes/inscriptions are "Luthien" and "Beren". I would say that this just carried over naturally to the other tales. Aragorn and Arwen was, in any event, a deliberate imitation of Beren and Luthien. As for Tuor and Idril- I'm not sure, but the Tale of Gondolin predates that of Beren and Luthien, so perhaps IT was the original tale.... Who knows? And as for why Tolkien never bothered to "balance" them with a few tales of male elves and female women, I don't know. Certainly, I doubt if he saw the need to balance it, and personally I think an unnatural balance of three males elves and three female elves marrying women/men is just that: unnatural. And, although Tolkien never did have a male elf/human woman MARRIAGE, he did have a tragic relationship: that of Aegnor and Andreth. Or maybe Tolkien just foresaw all the Legolas/fangird fanfics... ![]()
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#4 | |
Shade of Carn Dûm
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Ad finem itineris
Posts: 384
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Enyale cuilenya, ú-enyale mandenya. |
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#5 |
Animated Skeleton
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Arwen had to turn mortal becaue the last ships which can take her back were already leaving ME. The Valar were setting down the last dates for return. Arwen cannot stay till Aragorn's death and later take a ship. Remember the roads were bent forever.
Luthien turned mortal only in her second reincarnation and that too because she wanted Beren to live a second life. She would have been reincarnated anyway, but she could not bear to live without Beren. She died of grief the first time. She turned mortal voluntarily to save herself pain. Idril on the other hand may have agreed to live even after Tuor dies. As to why Tuor should turn immortal, I know not the answer. Maybe they stopped giving out "Elven tokens" from second age onwards. Also, would Elessar have been able to leave everything he had fought for and leave ME. I think no. What would have happened to ME if he had left. The Valar would also have to take that into consideration. Afterall, love stories aren't their only worries.
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Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us. |
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#6 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
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“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
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#7 | ||||
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
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However, Arwen could not leave Middle-earth whether there was a ship to bear her or not. She had chosen to be mortal when she plighted her troth with Aragorn in Cerin Amroth. Quote:
My brain's currently in a weird place, and it won't be back for some time, so I'll have to address some points later.
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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#8 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
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“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
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#9 |
Pile O'Bones
Join Date: May 2005
Location: In the land of Eren, the Garden of Ilrandir the Creator.
Posts: 11
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I was wondering about the union between Arwen and Aragorn. The point of that marriage may well be what Tolkien said in the appendix: "the two lines of the Half-Elven finally joined together."(that's not a direct quote, just an idea, I am too lazy to check right now.)
maybe Tolkien just don't want to deal with the Half-Elven anymore...he had to give them excuses for every choice they make... ![]()
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What Ship will bear me back, across so wide a Sea? |
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#10 |
Animated Skeleton
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Arwen was the last of the Noldor in ME. All the Noldor left with Elrond. Maybe the Noldor had a special ban or something considering the curse of Mandos.
But I still think, Aragon couldn't leave and Arwen couldn't live without him.
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Half-brother in blood, full brother in heart will I be. Thou shalt lead and I will follow. May no new grief divide us. |
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#11 | |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE
Posts: 794
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
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#12 |
Ghost Prince of Cardolan
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Kath was asking how come Frodo, Sam and Gimli,who were all mortal, could depart for the Undying Lands and why Arwen could not. Well, Frodo and Sam were both Ringbearers, they had both born a very heavy burden, and granting them admittance in Valinor was not only a reward, it was a possibility for them to be healed. Gimli had Galadriel's favour and that is why he could go with Legolas. For the other mortals, I think the road was shut. And Arwen chose not only to be mortal, but to be human also and no human had ever been aloud in the land of Aman.
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Is this the end? No more the hunt, the journey and the goal? That terrifies me most: no more the goal! -Ray Bradbury, Leviathan '99 |
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#13 | |
Eldar Spirit of Truth
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Land of the FREE, Home of the BRAVE
Posts: 794
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*~*Call me a relic, call me what you will. Say I'm old fashioned , say I'm over the hill. That old whine ain't got no soul. I'll stick to Old Toby and a Hobbit hole.*~* |
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#14 | |||
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
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![]() Let's look at that moment when Tuor and Ulmo met: . . . Ulmo spoke to Tuor of Valinor and its darkening, and the exile of the Noldor, and the Doom of Mandos and the hiding of the Blessed Realm. “But behold!” said he, “in the armour of Fate (as the Children of Earth name it) there is ever a rift, and in the walls of Doom a breach . . . Yet . . . now the Curse of Mandos hastens to its fulfilment, and all the works of the Noldor shall perish, and every hope which they build shall crumble. The last hope alone is left, the hope that they have not looked for and have not prepared. And that hope lieth in thee; for so I have chosen.”Tuor asks the same question you did—why him? [Ulmo: ]If I choose to send thee, Tuor son of Huor, then believe not that thy one sword is not worth the sending . . . But it is not for thy valour only that I send thee, but to bring into the world a hope beyond thy sight, and a light that shall pierce the darkness.(Take that, anti-Special Freedom of Men people! But that is a topic for another thread.) It was a plus for Tuor that he was the son of Huor, who was close to Turgon. But he was chosen primarily for being a Man, free from the chains of Fate. Quote:
It seems that I need more resources (and thinking) to answer the other questions. So, again, later!
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
Last edited by Nilpaurion Felagund; 07-25-2005 at 12:44 AM. Reason: word waffling |
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#15 | |||||
Dead Serious
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People on this thread seem to be forgetting that Arwen was not a full-blooded Elf. Like her brothers, the famed Half-Elven Elladan and Elrohir, she was part Man as well. And this is very important. The reason being that it is said that the children of Elrond were offered a choice, just as he and Elros had been, to choose Man and Mortality, or Elvenkind and Eternity. Why on earth Tolkien decided to give them this choice, except for plot reasons, I don't know, but there it is: the children of Elrond could choose immortality by staying with him and returning to the Undying Lands, or they could choose mortality by remaining in Middle-earth without him. Arwen, by reason of choosing to marry Aragorn, was choosing to remain in Middle-earth, and not return to the Undying Lands- at all. She was choosing mortality. What Elladan and Elrohir did is not known. It is said that they lingered in Middle-earth for a time, until the death of their sister, but it is not said that they chose mortality, or that they chose to join Elrond in the West. Their fate is a story that fanfic writers dream of... Quote:
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In the "Grey Havens" it says: Quote:
My points here are... where does it say that ALL the Noldor left with Elrond? There is no mention of Glorfindel in this chapter, nor of Erestor. And, if Arwen (who is as Sindar as she is Noldor) is to be accounted a Noldo, then Elladan and Elrohir must be remembered, and they remained in Middle-earth for a time. Furthermore, as the above quote indicates, only MANY of the High Folk (the Noldor) left. Many does not equal all. Furthermore, the Epilogue has Sam telling Elanor that there are still many Elves in Middle-Earth, and there will be for many long years to come. In time, perhaps she would see some, maybe even a few of the lingering HIGH ELVES (paraphrasing, since I don't have the book handy). Next, my dear Nilpaurion, where does it say that Cirdan departed? I have just read the end of the "Grey Havens" (looking for the above quote) and nowhere does it actually say that Cirdan left. On the other hand, there is a very clear statement (in the Silm, I believe) that Cirdan would not leave until the last ship set sail. Elrond's was not the last ship, and neither was Legolas'. Personally, I would say that the last ship STILL has not sailed, 5000-7000 years later... Cirdan could still be out there in some Cornish or Welsh fishing village, for all we know. As the Grey Havens- they may or may not have been closed. I doubt it, that early on in the Fourth Age. At this point in time Rivendell was still well-populated with those left behind with Elladan and Elrohir, and recently joined by Celeborn and many of the Galadhrim. And Mirkwood was at the height of its power, and Legolas' realm would not be dead yet. Yes... I highly doubt if Cirdan had abandoned the Havens as early as when Arwen left Gondor.
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I prefer history, true or feigned.
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#16 | |
Everlasting Whiteness
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Quote:
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“If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.” |
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#17 |
Scion of The Faithful
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The brink, where hope and despair are akin. [The Philippines]
Posts: 5,312
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In case anyone's interested, here are excerpts from Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth, regarding the relationship between Andreth and Aegnor. 'tis a sad tale, but I'll let you read it for yourself:
'For the doom of Men that has touched thee as a woman,' said Finrod. 'Dost thou think that I do not know? Is he not my brother dearly loved? Aegnor: Aikanar, the Sharp-flame, swift and eager. And not long are the years since you first met, and your hands touched in this darkness. Yet then thou wert a maiden, brave and eager, in the morning upon the high hills of Dorthonion.'(Many thanks to H-I for the copy. ![]()
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フェンリス鴨 (Fenrisu Kamo) The plot, cut, defeated. I intend to copy this sig forever - so far so good...
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