Gothmog a nazgul?

[steve]

I was reading and it poped in my head that Gothmog might of been a Nazgul, since he was Lt of Minas Morgul, would i be correct in saying that?

[Orald]

Possibly. There is a chance that it could have been another Black Numenorean like the Mouth of Sauron, or even an orc or maybe something else... But a lot of people think that it was one of the Nazgul. In fact I used to believe this, until I looked at the pros and cons, like what the Nazgul were being used for at this point in time in contrast to what they had been used for in the past. It is a toss up, but I think it weighs more in favor of the Nazgul not being Gothmog.

[Galorme]

I assume you are referring to Mouth of Sauron (was he also named Gothmog?). No he wasn't a Nazgul. He was originally envisaged to be a Nazgul (probably in HoME VIII or IX but I don't know for sure), but JRRT changed his mind. He was a man I am sure of it, if an old and twisted one.

My first response was Gothmog is a Balrog you fool [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Manwe Sulimo]

Galorme: the Mouth of Sauron was not the Gothmog named in LotR. Gothmog was referred to as "The Lieutenant of Minas Morgul", while the Mouth of Sauron was referred to as the "Lieutenant of Barad-dûr".

[Galorme]

Oh ok. Yeah I messed that one up. So yeah my last post was wrong.

Wait a second... Doesn't that make Gothmog and Angmar the same person? hmm *gets book*. Nope sorry Gothmog took over after the fall of the Angmar (the fall of the person not the realm, though obviously he took over after the fall of the realm also). Hmm I would say, no he was not a Nazgul. It would be mentioned if another Nazgul was around I think.

God a lieutenant called Gothmog, a place called Údun, invading a tower called Minis Tirith. I wonder if he had a puppy called Carchroth. Aww i just got a really sweet and somewhat bloodthirsty image of that. [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[obloquy]

There is no person named Angmar.

[Manwe Sulimo]

The Lord of the Nazgûl was called "The Witch-king of Angmar"...there is no creature named "Angmar".

Don't worry...I used to think that was his name, too [img]smilies/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[Galorme]

I do know that his name is not Angmar, it is merely where he dwelt. As he has no other name (I don’t think, only titles), and unless I was to abbreviate (TWKOA?) Angmar is the best way of saying it. You don't see me correcting people whenever they refer to Mandos, or Lorien. From now on no one can refer to Námo as Mandos, you must say TVWDIM (The Valar Who Dwells in Mandos).

[Gryphon Hall]

The Lord of the Nazgul can be called Angmar, just as Arthur Wellesley can be called Wellington because he was the Duke of Wellington, and George Gordon referred to as Byron because he was the Count of Byron.

I may be wrong, but isn't that how Fingolfin referred to him in Appendix A?

But I don't think Gothmog was Nazgul. Neither was the Mouth of Sauron, I think.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Gryphon Hall ]

[Galorme]

Erm thanks, but the chances are Fingolfin did nothing of the sort, since he was long dead when Angmar was born.

Ohh do you mean Glorfindel? Yeah no one actually calls Agmar "Agmar" in the book I don't think. It's just shorthand, like Mandos or Fangorn for Namo or Treebeard.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Mandos and Treebeard are just other versions or translations of the original name, not to mention the one that they are referred to most in the books. Angmar is neither his real name nor his dukedom, as he was not given it by a greater lord. We don't call Queen Elizabeth "Britain", do we?

No need to get so huffy....

[Galorme]

Mandos is where he dwells. Namo is the Lord of Mandos, but he is NOT Mandos. But I admit I was wrong, i was merely objecting to the idea that I did not know the difference between the Nazgul and the Realm. I will carry on referring to TWKOA as Angmar for simplicity's sake. I am sorry I must admit that your comment that you used to think Angmar was the person kinda hit a nerve, I am not sure why. Sorry if i sounded harsh.

[Manwe Sulimo]

Just clearing a bit up....

The names of the Lords in due order are: Manwë, Ulmo, Aulë, Oromë, Mandos, Lórien, and Tulkas.

~Valaquenta

Regardless of whether Mandos' proper name is Námo, he is still called Mandos in every instance except his description...by Tolkien himself. Perhaps the Halls were called that because they were the Halls of Námo...or Mandos?

[Legolas]

Tolkien referred to Namo as Mandos as if it was also used as a name, and to Fangorn as Treebeard in the same manner. He never did that with the Witch-king of Angmar. He used 'Witch-king' which is simple enough. Also, 'Mandos' and 'Treebeard' are no shorter than 'Namo' and 'Fangorn' as far as syllables go, and they're actually longer letter-wise. Tolkien used them because these names are what the characters were better known by to the beings of Arda from whose archives he extracted the tales.

[ December 11, 2002: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[Galorme]

ok ok you guys win I was wrong. I really brought the wolves down on me there [img]smilies/frown.gif[/img]

[Gryphon Hall]

[img]smilies/frown.gif[/img] sigh... you're not alone, Galorme.

[doug*platypus]

Match Made for Hell

This is my match-making attempt. The link is to a thread that started out as something else but ended up being Gothmog = Nazgûl??, whereas the thread you're on now started out with that as the subject, but then degenerated into... I don't know what!

I think Gothmog=Nazgûl. Minas Morgul is called the City of Ringwraiths (although I can't recall exactly who calls it this). There were at least five based there from what I can recall, and it seems to me that being

"the apple of the great eye"

- the knowledgable Grishnákh

Sauron would not have needed to keep other captains there as well. As for Gothmog of LOTR being a reincarnation of the original, I think that the original was Incarnate as a Balrog and once his body was destroyed could not take (or be given) another form.

[Legolas]

Sauron would not have needed to keep other captains there as well.

Why not?

The Ringwraiths were out and about often (as they were when Frodo was moving towards Rivendell). Who, then, would oversee the stronghold?

Sauron appointed a human as Lt. of Barad-dur (the Mouth of Sauron), even though Sauron himself was there.

[Galorme]

Lieutenant means Second in Command doesn't it? Someone to take over while the master is away, like my little brother [img]smilies/biggrin.gif[/img]

[Mornie Alantie]

I can see both sides of the argument have facts. The for Gothmog being Nazgul side has this as evindence.

That Minas Morgul was taken over by the Nazgul and where the abode. Never would have Sauron placed an orc as second in command for such a fortress. Only in lesser towers such as Cirith Ungol did that happen, and even then after Sam and Frodo "visited" the place and all the orcs died a Nazgul took charge of the tower. Also Black Numenoreans were rare at that point in middle earth for the only one spoken of is the mouth of Sauron who has no name.

On the other hand the Gothmog not being Nazgul side is.

As said before the Nazgul were out much, expecially when it came to having tea time with hobbits....Wait.......Never mind. Also the fact that the mouth of Sauron thought that it was greatly possible that he would be put in command of Isengaurd after the disposal of Saruman, why shouldn't another man be put in that position of Minas Morgul. But the problem is Tolkien never stated what it was.

[Legolas]

As I've said previously, the Mouth of Sauron, a man, was Lt. of Barad-dur. It makes sense to me that the Lt. of Minas Morgul (Gothmog) would be a man too, especially given the fact that Minas Morgul would need leadership since the Nazgul left the tower frequently, sometimes all at once like when the Ring is on its way to Bree and Rivendell. I can't see Sauron leaving it unsupervised.

The Black Numenoreans may or may not have been rare, but I'm not claiming there was an army of them at Minas Morgul - just one more. Two is that not that much bigger than one when thinking in terms of scarcity.

[ January 17, 2003: Message edited by: Legalos ]

[obloquy]

Sauron thought the Ring was in Minas Tirith, and he was going all out in his assault. The Witch-King was there, and it's more than reasonable to assume at least a few more of the Nazgul were present. Where else would they have been? If the Lieutenant of Minas Morgul took over for The Witch-King, he was also the Lieutenant of the Ringwraiths. I think it's unlikely that a plain old living Man filled that position.

[Tarthang]

Given that Minas Morgul was home to the Nazgul, it makes perfect sense to me that the Lt. of Minas Morgul would have been a Nazgul as well.

[Olorin]

my honest opinion is that it was not the mouth od sauron because as you said he was the lt. of baradur and once sauron get the ring he won't need him so he wil send him to isenguard and that gothmog was the l.t of the nazgul because he was also the l.t of minas mourgal.
if you are reading this please don't take this too seriously because i don't really know alot about this most of my info came from what was already written and a bit of thought. it is just a suggestion.


... however u sorta confused me with the fanghorn and mandos and treebeard and namo.
are u people tryin to say that treebeard is namo and fanghorn is mandos???

[obloquy]

Olorin: You are completely correct. [img]smilies/smile.gif[/img]

[SamwiseGamgee]

Obloquy, i've got to disagree with your post 2 or 3 above. I cite The Hunt for The Ring:

Now at the time the Chieftain of the Ringwraiths dwelt in Minas Morgul with six companions, while the second to the Chief, Khamul the Shadow of the East, abode in Dol Guldor as Sauron's lieutenant, with one other as his messenger.

Khamul was lieutenant of the Nazgul, not the lieutenant of Minas Morgul- who may or may not have been Gothmog. Also, the Nazgul could be concentrating on the attack on Lothlorien from Dol Guldor, so they had plenty else to be concerned with.

[Altariel]

But I don't think Gothmog was Nazgul. Neither was the Mouth of Sauron, I think.

Somehow I don't think that Gothmog was one of the Nazgul... I got the impression that, well, he just wasn't. I assumed that he was an orc or something; I never really considered that he might be human. Somehow Gothmog just doesn't seem like the kind of name a human would have. ^^;

As for the Mouth of Sauron, I think that it's stated quite specifically that he is a human; a Black Numenorean, in fact...

O' course, I might be a bit late posting this. [img]smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[Iarhen]

I agree. Obloquy, not all of the Nazgul were present when the attack on Minas Tirith began to fail when the Witch King was slain. Khamul and another Nazgul were at Dol Guldur, marshalling the armies on the siege of Lórien.

And I do think that Gothmog was another Nazgul. The other 6 Nazgul would not so easily recognize the authority of a mere man…

[Finwe]

Then how do you explain the fact that the Mouth of Sauron, who was the lieutenant of Barad-dur, was a man? He was second-in-command in Mordor, so surely the Nazgul listened to him.

[Lost One]

I don't think it necessarily follows at all that the lieutenant of Barad-dur (as fortress/palace) was the second in command for Mordor the state (he is nowhere called the lieutenant of Mordor, and the Witch-king is repeatedly called Sauron's most powerful servant). To be honest, I don't think there was a 'chain-of-command' in the modern sense, both because of Sauron's unique nature (with his combination of power and suspicion)or indeed also that a medievalist such as Tolkien would himself have thought to arrange his world in those terms. This would be quite unusual in a tyranny or pre-modern empire, and Sauron was the ultimate tyrant. Armies would have a sort of hierarchy, of course, but not really states, outside the ruling house. Even in Gondor, people were a bit uncertain who was in charge with Denethor dead and Faramir incapacitated: Imrahil, Gandalf or Aragorn.

[Nilpaurion Felagund]

You don't trust a mere man to marshal Sauron's army?

I think it's not about power. Sure, the Nazgûl may be his most powerful servants, but leading(or second-leading, or lieutenanting, whatever you want to call it) an army doesn't necessarily mean you're powerful. You could be a good suck-up, like the famous Mouth of Sauron.